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Old 04-03-2012, 07:44 PM #1
benji25
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The Loss of Motivation and Accountability in America.

The loss of motivation and accountability in America.

America was founded by individuals who had dreams of a better life. They literally packed up all of their belongings, got on a boat, and said I am going to get where I want in life or die trying. Literally DYING for a chance at a better life. That is why this country was founded. So every citizen could have the freedom to pursue their dreams of a better, more fulfilling life. In my opinion, most Americans today have a distorted, jaded and downright suicidal view of the "American Dream" and how government programs are taking away any motivation to better oneself through your own merits.

With all the government funded welfare and assistance programs it is virtuously impossible for this country to succeed.

http://funding-programs.idilogic.aidpage.com/

I am not sure how reliable or accurate that link is, but it is no secret that government spends a lot of money. Even if you consider just the largest federally funded programs:

Social Security
Medicare
Medicaid
Student Loans
Food Stamps
TANF
Public Housing Assistance
Unemployment Benefits
Defense Spending

You can see that we are racking up a bill that our kids can't cash. WE HAVE GOT TO CUT IT OFF AT SOME POINT. Americans are so used to having all of these perks handed to them that we no longer have motivation to go out, get a good job and earn them ourselves. Want to be able to afford food? No problem, the 54% of people who pay federal income taxes will foot that bill so just don't worry about paying for that. (link) Oh, you don't want to pay for housing? No problem, the 54% will pay. Oh, you got knocked up and aren't capable of performing the responsibilities to raise a kid? No problem, the 54% will pay. Oh and to top it off, you just don't want to work or are unwilling to train to get a good enough job to support whatever lifestyle you desire? No problem, the 54% will pay for you to be unemployed.

America needs to wake up and realize that this dream world we have been living in is just that: a dream world. You can't have low taxes and massive government spending. It is idiotic. But threaten to cut programs and you get outcry that government doesn't care. And you know what? The government shouldn't <del>****</del>ing care about you. You are responsible for your destiny (save for people who are born disabled and other similar circumstances). You want to get out of the poverty you live in and live a prosperous life? Get a job at 15 or 16, save some money, go to community college and get at least a bachelors degree in something so you aren't making minimum wage the rest of your life. No one said being successful was easy. The american dream sure as hell isn't easy. But you know what? It is not the governments or the taxpayers responsibility to pay for your American dream.

Will you be able to do what you love and be able to afford a good life? That depends. If you get a skill set of poetry with a minor in free thinking, then don't come crying to me when you aren't marketable. Would I love to sit outside all day and write <del>****</del> and philosophize and make art and do that fun <del>****</del>? Sure I would. But I realize that I cannot make a living of that and I have chosen a career path that I believe will let me do that letter in life WHEN I CAN AFFORD IT.

Wake the <del>****</del> up America.

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Old 04-03-2012, 08:49 PM #2
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Great post, totally agree

Just to add we should cut everything across the board, including defense budget, not just social policies. Also review which corporate tax breaks actually boosted jobs and helps all americans, and get rid of the ones that don't.
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Old 04-03-2012, 09:26 PM #3
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:16 PM #4
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I'll play the cynic I guess LoL

Lets say hypothetically you eliminate Social Security,Medicare,Medicaid,Student Loans,Food Stamps,TANF,Public Housing Assistance,Unemployment Benefits and Defense Spending. Then what? How would your life personally improve? Are you saying that if these programs weren't their you would have a better chance at success in life? Some how people who benefit from these programs are holding you back? Or is it the massive debt that can't possibly be paid off that bothers you? You think voting can make a difference? If the right party or person was in power somehow the reality we know would change? Isn't it all part of the same farm? Who owns what and who do we really write our checks too? Can the chains of tyranny be lifted and then some Ayn Rand utopia emerge? Maybe were on the cusp of what historians someday will call the fall of the Western Empire.We are all part of the ebb and flow of history and for a few hundred years Western rulers ruled the world both economically and militarily.We cant do much to change what is. But we can be free once we recognize the cages around us.When you win a tourney no one can take that from you.No one can buy it,or tax it, or make it theirs.It's yours.Similarly that's how you live your life.Being free is more a state of mind and that trumps any economic model you happen to live in...
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:24 PM #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mylifefire View Post
I'll play the cynic I guess LoL

Lets say hypothetically you eliminate Social Security,Medicare,Medicaid,Student Loans,Food Stamps,TANF,Public Housing Assistance,Unemployment Benefits and Defense Spending. Then what? How would your life personally improve? Are you saying that if these programs weren't their you would have a better chance at success in life? Some how people who benefit from these programs are holding you back? Or is it the massive debt that can't possibly be paid off that bothers you? You think voting can make a difference? If the right party or person was in power somehow the reality we know would change? Isn't it all part of the same farm? Who owns what and who do we really write our checks too? Can the chains of tyranny be lifted and then some Ayn Rand utopia emerge? Maybe were on the cusp of what historians someday will call the fall of the Western Empire.We are all part of the ebb and flow of history and for a few hundred years Western rulers ruled the world both economically and militarily.We cant do much to change what is. But we can be free once we recognize the cages around us.When you win a tourney no one can take that from you.No one can buy it,or tax it, or make it theirs.It's yours.Similarly that's how you live your life.Being free is more a state of mind and that trumps any economic model you happen to live in...
That is an interesting point. But in my opinion it would make my life better because I would pay substantially less taxes. Less taxes the more I spend. The more I spend the more jobs that are created. Plus if I have more discretionary income I can choose to donate money instead of the government taking it and giving it to people.
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:33 PM #6
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I also think the severity of social security abuse is greatly exaggerated. Yes, we are spending too much money on these programs, IMO. However, the amount of people that decide "**** it" and just live off the government isn't exactly the half the country many people like to make it sound like.

Also, the government shouldn't care about me? No. The government is in place to protect and to help rule me, albeit in the general sense of me. If anything else, the moment they stop caring is the day I will be truly scared. At that point, it truly becomes an entirely corrupt government with an agenda one hundred and ten percent their own. We're bad now. But it can get MUCH worse.

I agree with your general idea, though.
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:05 PM #7
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That is an interesting point. But in my opinion it would make my life better because I would pay substantially less taxes. Less taxes the more I spend. The more I spend the more jobs that are created. Plus if I have more discretionary income I can choose to donate money instead of the government taking it and giving it to people.
I agree with that. The way our society is structured though it benefits government jobs (military,prisons,schools ect) big business, Corporations and Unions. In school you are taught to be the perfect citizen and groomed to work for any of the above entity's. The self employed like myself pay plenty in taxes but it is easier to hide income. I only put what I need in the bank to cover expenses so my income tax is minimal. The government knows full well small business knows how to hide income so have enacted licensing fees,payroll taxes,vehicle permits and a host of money generating schemes regulating business to off set what I stuff under my mattress.I make enough to live comfortably but never enough to be considered rich.In a sense I feel free because I think I control my own destiny but who am I really kidding.Were all just slaves..
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:24 PM #8
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That is an interesting point. But in my opinion it would make my life better because I would pay substantially less taxes. Less taxes the more I spend. The more I spend the more jobs that are created. Plus if I have more discretionary income I can choose to donate money instead of the government taking it and giving it to people.
didn't we already try this with the trickle down economics? didn't seem to work too well, did it?
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:35 PM #9
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I also think the severity of social security abuse is greatly exaggerated. Yes, we are spending too much money on these programs, IMO. However, the amount of people that decide "**** it" and just live off the government isn't exactly the half the country many people like to make it sound like..
Depends what you mean by living off the government. The welfare state in regards to the poor isn't as big as conservatives make it out to be. Traditionally the local "church" took care of the poor ect but all they do now is worry about the sins of others.Even non profits only 30% of the money received actually goes to whomever they are claiming to help.On the other hand those who have government jobs (military,social services ) is pretty vast. I'm guessing it's about 1/3 of the economy maybe more.

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Also, the government shouldn't care about me? No. The government is in place to protect and to help rule me, albeit in the general sense of me. If anything else, the moment they stop caring is the day I will be truly scared. At that point, it truly becomes an entirely corrupt government with an agenda one hundred and ten percent their own. We're bad now. But it can get MUCH worse.
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:45 PM #10
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I also think the severity of social security abuse is greatly exaggerated. Yes, we are spending too much money on these programs, IMO. However, the amount of people that decide "<del>****</del> it" and just live off the government isn't exactly the half the country many people like to make it sound like.

Also, the government shouldn't care about me? No. The government is in place to protect and to help rule me, albeit in the general sense of me. If anything else, the moment they stop caring is the day I will be truly scared. At that point, it truly becomes an entirely corrupt government with an agenda one hundred and ten percent their own. We're bad now. But it can get MUCH worse.

I agree with your general idea, though.
The government should only care about protecting you and giving you the liberty to make something of yourself. Or should I say, this should be the only thing Americans rely on government for.
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:13 AM #11
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Depends what you mean by living off the government. The welfare state in regards to the poor isn't as big as conservatives make it out to be. Traditionally the local "church" took care of the poor ect but all they do now is worry about the sins of others.Even non profits only 30% of the money received actually goes to whomever they are claiming to help.On the other hand those who have government jobs (military,social services ) is pretty vast. I'm guessing it's about 1/3 of the economy maybe more.


The government only cares about you only in the sense that your livestock for them to farm.
I will answer/touch on your first point below.

I agree, though, that they generally only care about the money. However, there is the occasional law (for whatever reason/interest group that got them to do it) that helps the people. I just meant, worse than it is now. Not sure how much worse it could get, though.

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The government should only care about protecting you and giving you the liberty to make something of yourself. Or should I say, this should be the only thing Americans rely on government for.
What I meant by people living off of it is people who just, like I said, say **** it. Anytime this subject is debated, the only way you hear it said is, "Lazy ****s smooching off the government." It's a crude exaggeration. And, although I agree that we shouldn't rely on our government to take care of us, one of the benefits of living in a "civilized" country is having the option to, if you **** up, fall back and the government help you for a bit. Maybe it is extreme in current form. I will stay out of that. The degree by which we hand out help is of no matter. It's having that cushion there, knowing that you won't **** up too hard, that allows us to leave our comfort zone a little bit. Without it, I'm afraid we would see even less innovation than we do now. Why? No one would have the guts to do anything. I mean, why drop most of your money on a possible solution when you know that, if it doesn't work, you're ****ed? It's safer to save it and do nothing with it.

Some government programs, in a more established country, are almost essential to ensure the progress of innovation. Even if minuscule in actual help, that little bit is all that is needed to be there to help ensure people.

I think more of what has caused this sincere since of apathy that is plaguing the nation is the thought that we are still the same kickass nation we were post-war. But, the fact of the matter is, we're not. People still think of America as this big badass super giant that no one can touch. Hey, that's cool. Nationality is a positive trait in people. But if you live in this comfort zone, this bubble that allows you to just live your life, safely, and not worry about what happens tomorrow, would you wonder outside of it often? I don't think so. Well, maybe, if you're the curious, adventurous type like many of us on here are. However, if you're a simpleton, living life like this is entirely acceptable. It's this whole denial complex we have. This whole convincing ourselves we're safe thing.

I stole this from DyePB2k11, but he posted this link in the quote thread in ST and I feel it fits.

http://www.gleamingedge.com/mirrors/...sheepdogs.html

It touches on the feeling we get when talking about the sheep. The feeling of denial. The way he describes it I feel applies very well here. And he said it much better than I think I can.

But, having a corrupt government with little to no concern for what the people think doesn't really help our situation much either, I suppose.


-------------------------------


Sorry if this is rough. I'm up too late.
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:13 AM #12
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There is plenty of motivation, and rather than accountability, there is economic injustice and a shrinking of the American dream, which siphons away the rewards. This is why the economy is dysfunctional now.
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:52 AM #13
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You can still have these programs as long as the budget stays balanced. It's the spending money we ain't got that is the problem.
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:26 AM #14
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You can still have these programs as long as the budget stays balanced. It's the spending money we ain't got that is the problem.
Didn't Alexander Hamilton (along with most founding fathers) believe that national debt was a good thing? As a paulbot aren't you programmed to blindly follow the precedent set forth by them?
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:36 AM #15
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Didn't Alexander Hamilton (along with most founding fathers) believe that national debt was a good thing? As a paulbot aren't you programmed to blindly follow the precedent set forth by them?
Federalists?
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:17 AM #16
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I think we should expect people on welfare to be more responsible. For example, my mother in law is on social security disability for a degenerative bone disorder in her spine. She also has a smoking habit, and her 2-3 packs of marlboro reds a week are completely subsidized by the taxpayers; who will also have to foot the bill when she eventually develops emphysema or lung cancer. I have no problem with helping out the disabled, but the idea of paying for something that is 100% the result of a lifestyle decision strikes me as unjust.
To be fair, I think all individuals who smoke are irresponsible and their health insurance companies should charge them more for their habit the same way auto insurance companies charge more to cover risky drivers.
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:33 AM #17
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Federalists?
As I have said before, if you consider the constitution to be infallible, you must be willing to accept the supporting ideals as well.
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:01 PM #18
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As I have said before, if you consider the constitution to be infallible, you must be willing to accept the supporting ideals as well.
Who said it was infallible? It has a built in remedy for when things go wrong. Be the cause of the wrong a person in an office, or a lack of a power, through the document you have the means to correct.

We're the federalists right on some things? Sure. The anti federalists were right on more, hell they even predicted todays government in an argument against the federalists.

Accept that liberty is the absence of government coercion.

What do you know of the ideals? Would you say the founders of the US were fighting to make a new country OR fighting for the rights they already had as citizens under the crown but we're being denied to them?
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:17 PM #19
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With all the government funded welfare and assistance programs it is virtuously impossible for this country to succeed.
So your main argument is that government funded welfare and assistance programs make it virtually (I'm guessing that's what you meant instead of "virtuously") impossible for this country to succeed? How would you account for countries with both substantial state-based social services and high productivity?
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:44 PM #20
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Who said it was infallible? It has a built in remedy for when things go wrong. Be the cause of the wrong a person in an office, or a lack of a power, through the document you have the means to correct.
Who says the constitution is infallible? Paulbots, implicitly or explicitly.

For starters, the only way "constitutional" is of any worth is if it held to a moral value. If I declare that something is "constitutional", all I am saying is that it is in the constitution. But there has become this implied moral value where "what is constitutional" is always "what is right" regardless of whether it is really right or not. That is the notion of infallibility. This strange notion that because something is constitutional it is automatically smart, ethical, effective, wise, efficient, thought-out, fair, and over-all a good decision.

You want to know why I am hypercritical of Paulbots? Because this idea that the argument is around "what is constitutional" instead of "what is logical" is detrimental to the effective workings of political discussion. Paulbots arguing that "the gold standard should exist because it is constitutional" is arbitrary and holds back discussions about what is effective and efficient. Ron Paul's argument that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 violated the Constitution holds back discussion about the effectiveness and ineffectiveness of it. It's a terrible, illogical notion built on ignorance and more ignorance.

You are upset with the bad decisions of our government? Don't look towards the constitution for the fix. Look at those who justify their decisions solely on the constitution (rather than logic, equality, liberty, or intelligence) and you will know what needs to be fixed.
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:28 PM #21
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Rep. Paul supporters do not imply it is infallible. They state overtly that the government must follow the rules set forth in it. If it isn't in the instructions, it can't be done on the federal level. Right or wrong is irrelevant. If you disagree with with your government use the amendment process, which is outlined in the constitution, to change it. Ignoring the operating principles and instructions of the machine, while trying to get it to work, is not logical.


PS - you don't need federal government initiation, or federal legislative votes/agreement to make an amendment.
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