Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-28-2012, 10:50 AM #1
addicted2dunes
 
 
addicted2dunes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Orcutt, CA
addicted2dunes has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Can't get the velocity I'm after......

OK, I've built four Autocockers...... now my wife's is a WGP 2K RF and it is all stock on everything minus a Maddmann spring kit installed, green valve spring, red hammer spring. Hers shoots absolutely perfect and all the setting seem right. Now this gun shoots WAY better then mine and am running it at about 290 fps.

Mine is a 2K VF and I can't get above 250 fps. Anyone have any ideas? Now I have all stock internals minus a Maddmann kit, setup the same way, green valve spring, red hammer spring. I am also running a Palmers Stabilizer with the standard pressure kit. I have the stabilizer turned to it's max and the IVG is turned in a lot..... about an inch in. I know this isn't right, what the heck is going on here?

Both guns are run on CO2 and I do not plan on running HPA as it is a lot easier to do the CO2 as I fill it myself.

Am I running the wrong springs? Wrong pressure kit in the stabilizer? I just can't believe how great hers does.... along with the other two guns over mine.
addicted2dunes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 11:57 AM #2
masterofTHUMBS
boom headshot
 
masterofTHUMBS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: 703
masterofTHUMBS posts videos on PbNation
masterofTHUMBS is an NCPA player
masterofTHUMBS supports Pev's Paintball
masterofTHUMBS plays in the APPA D5 division
I don't have a stab but it may just need a rebuild. Not sure if it would help but it wouldn't hurt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W6TxjFvSfI

You may also want to try to installing a gauge under the front block. Quickest way to tell if the reg is operating at correct psi. Other than that, I don't know.
masterofTHUMBS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 11:59 AM #3
addicted2dunes
 
 
addicted2dunes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Orcutt, CA
addicted2dunes has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by masterofTHUMBS View Post
I don't have a stab but it may just need a rebuild. Not sure if it would help but it wouldn't hurt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W6TxjFvSfI

You may also want to try to installing a gauge under the front block. Quickest way to tell if the reg is operating at correct psi. Other than that, I don't know.
All four guns have gone through a complete rebuild.... Isn't it hard to gauge CO2 though? Too much fluctuation with temperature changes.
addicted2dunes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 01:36 PM #4
tacxplosion
 
 
tacxplosion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Guatemala (for real)
Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted2dunes View Post
I am also running a Palmers Stabilizer with the standard pressure kit. I have the stabilizer turned to it's max and the IVG is turned in a lot..... about an inch in. I know this isn't right, what the heck is going on here?
Pressure's too high for the valve to open fully, turn the stab down (to 150 PSI if you have a way of measuring or zero it out if you don't) and sweetspot from there, you should get 290'ish fps with the IVG flush to the back block with that spring combo.

Personal suggestion, you might want to change the spring combo to green main/green valve, the way you have it sprung now might get you sweetspotted under 200 PSI with horrible efficiency and a hard ram stroke, green mainspring will raise the operating pressure to about 375 PSI and decrease the LPR pressure, getting you better efficiency and a softer ram stroke (smoother cocking action).
tacxplosion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 07:38 PM #5
addicted2dunes
 
 
addicted2dunes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Orcutt, CA
addicted2dunes has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by tacxplosion View Post
Pressure's too high for the valve to open fully, turn the stab down (to 150 PSI if you have a way of measuring or zero it out if you don't) and sweetspot from there, you should get 290'ish fps with the IVG flush to the back block with that spring combo.

Personal suggestion, you might want to change the spring combo to green main/green valve, the way you have it sprung now might get you sweetspotted under 200 PSI with horrible efficiency and a hard ram stroke, green mainspring will raise the operating pressure to about 375 PSI and decrease the LPR pressure, getting you better efficiency and a softer ram stroke (smoother cocking action).
How would the green hammer spring get me higher pressure, wouldn't higher pressure = harder to open valve, so then a stiffer hammer spring?

I'm not being a smart *** or anything, just asking, trying to learn, ha ha
addicted2dunes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 11:02 PM #6
tacxplosion
 
 
tacxplosion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Guatemala (for real)
Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted2dunes View Post
How would the green hammer spring get me higher pressure, wouldn't higher pressure = harder to open valve, so then a stiffer hammer spring?

I'm not being a smart *** or anything, just asking, trying to learn, ha ha
LP=high air volume & mechanical dwell/low energy air burst
HP=low air volume & mechanical dwell/high energy air burst

It's a balancing act, green hammer spring will open the valve for less time than the red spring, therefore you'll need to have a higher energy burst for the shorter time the valve stays open, thus higher operating pressure at the sweetspot.

The recommended starting combo for tuning a 'cocker for efficiency/smoothness is blue valve/green main, that means the valve will stay open as little as possible (while still getting 300 fps) and the ram will have to fight the softest spring to cock the marker, short dwell=efficiency, soft mainspring= smoothness. The way you have them sprung right now, it'll probably sweetspot at about 175 PSI and you'll be lucky to get half a case off a 68/4500.

I have an AKA spring kit on 2 of my 'cockers (1 mech, 1 electro) and a green main/blue valve maddmann kit in another (electro), they all get over half a case off my 68/3000 on the stock valve (underbored), the AKA kit is about the same as blue on blue, the green on blue is my go to electro poppet (SR), it's smoother than my 2k2 timmy and just as efficient if not more so, with the timmy reliably running at about 70 PSI off the LPR. The other 2, I get a bit more barrel rise out of (even the 2k5 BM which is midblocked). I have 4 'cockers, 2 of which I rebuilt and restored, all but one of them with tuned valves; not one of the 4 sweetspots with the HPR over 280 PSI even with stock springs (the one with stock springs is a forced LP valve, not to sound like an *** myself, but I won't go into detail on forced LP so I don't confuse you more).

If you're into tuning/rebuilding/restoring (as I take it you are), it's always a good idea to have/make a reg tester, why? so you can know where the HPR sweetspots and then when you take it off the marker to service it you can just dial it back on the tester to the required PSI once you're done.

Try blue on blue and zero the reg out, then sweetspot (you will need a chronograph), you should be sitting at about 250-350 PSI when you're done, it may be a bit louder than what it is now (not by much though), but it'll be easier to cock and have better efficiency.

Hope that helps, let me know if you have any more questions.
tacxplosion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 12:09 AM #7
shockler
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: nor*cal
shockler is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
tacxplosion is right on with this.There are detailed articles here if you do a search on lp vs hp .Each has its advantages and disadvantages.He's also right about having a reg pressure tester if you like to tinker.Most autococker enthusiasts love to tinker.Easiest way i found to build a tester is get a old asa and put a 0-800 gauge on it.
Also if your stabilizer is screwed all the way in, I can tell ya your shutting down your valve. Co2 varies in pressure due to temp but has a output around 800psi at about 75 degrees.
What works for me in a pinch on the field is screw the velocity in a few turns on your marker(about 1/4 inch) and with the reg backed out, turn in the reg till it fires correctly.turn about a 1/4 turn more and chrono your marker.
If this doesn't work,try the reg on your wife's.
Just remember,too much pressure can shut down your valve. air restrictions will result in lower pressures.Restrictions can be from

the tank pin not depressing far enough,this could be from the tank valve or a worn asa pin
lp reg out of adjustment or defective
ive even seen air restricted due to a aftermarket bolt being the wrong length and the bolt valve hole not matching the valve hole.
__________________
my feedback

http://www.sacpaintball.com/forums/index.php?board=17;action=display;threadid=11305
shockler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 12:25 AM #8
addicted2dunes
 
 
addicted2dunes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Orcutt, CA
addicted2dunes has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Some good info here, thanks guys! I plan on going out this weekend and playing with the chrono again. I'll swap out my springs to blue on blue and see what happens, then go into the tuning process once again.

tacxplosion, I too have an SR, basically brand new sitting in it's case, haven't played with it yet though, too much work to get air around here for that.

shockler, as far as my tank valve opening, I think I'm good there, I have a Dead on drop/ on off ASA and all seems good. I also have a DYE LPR and that all looked good. As far as the bolt goes I have a Shocktech 2K delrin bolt. How would I know if the holes are lining up correctly?
addicted2dunes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 12:44 AM #9
tacxplosion
 
 
tacxplosion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Guatemala (for real)
Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted2dunes View Post
I too have an SR, basically brand new sitting in it's case, haven't played with it yet though, too much work to get air around here for that...

... How would I know if the holes are lining up correctly?
1) If you don't mind spending about $100 you can run the SR on CO2, you'll just need a female Palmers stab and a cradle to hook it up to the frame, then set the output to 600 PSI into the SR's reg, which should take it down to 300'ish PSI. The SR's valve is a ***** to tune though, very finicky near the sweetspot with the green mainspring.

2) The labor intensive way to make sure the holes line up is:
Take frame off, then take the beavertail off, then take the bolt out, then flip the back block 180*, put the bolt in upside down into the back block, the hole on the bolt should line up with the valve set scew.

The rule of thumb way is:
match bolt to backblock style, 2k bolt with 2k block, evo bolt with evo block and so on. Most are made well enough that they will line up just fine with the back block's gap being less than 2mm.

Last edited by tacxplosion : 03-29-2012 at 10:38 AM.
tacxplosion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 12:59 AM #10
Dk-79
SCHWING!
 
Dk-79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: North County, California
I'm sure it's been said before, but you can over pressurize the valve so that even a red spring with the IVG maxed wont have enough force to open the valve.
Dk-79 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2012, 08:30 PM #11
addicted2dunes
 
 
addicted2dunes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Orcutt, CA
addicted2dunes has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Welp, I adjusted the IVG and the HPR all the way down..... installed blue main and hammer springs. Put on the chrono and it shot about 5 feet, adjusted HPR until it was all the way up and still nothing on the chrono. So I installed blue valve spring and red hammer spring, got a little better. I got up to 289 fps but that is still with the HPR all the way maxed out and the IVG in about an inch..... WTH is going on here?
addicted2dunes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2012, 09:26 PM #12
CrazyDriver84
I Snipe with PSP Mode
 
CrazyDriver84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Plymouth, MI
Annual Supporting Member
CrazyDriver84 supports Sherwood Forest
CrazyDriver84 supports Sherwood Forest
CrazyDriver84 has achieved Level 3 in PbNation Pursuit
The bottomline ASA might be starving the gun. Either it is not opening the pin valve enough or it is too far in and choking it off.
CrazyDriver84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2012, 10:13 PM #13
tacxplosion
 
 
tacxplosion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Guatemala (for real)
Is there any chance you might have a pre2k valve in there, that would explain why you don't get fps without the HPR turned up all the way. Can we get pics of the setup (and valve possibly)?
tacxplosion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2012, 10:18 PM #14
addicted2dunes
 
 
addicted2dunes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Orcutt, CA
addicted2dunes has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyDriver84 View Post
The bottomline ASA might be starving the gun. Either it is not opening the pin valve enough or it is too far in and choking it off.
In my honest opinion all that looks good, it's a dead on, stainless line that I just put on..... originally had macro but did the same thing then.
addicted2dunes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2012, 10:21 PM #15
addicted2dunes
 
 
addicted2dunes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Orcutt, CA
addicted2dunes has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Here's some outside pics of the gun. As for the valve, it's the same as my wife's stock valve. It seems like I need to compress the hammer spring like crazy, but it's as stiff as I have (red).




Last edited by addicted2dunes : 03-31-2012 at 10:43 PM.
addicted2dunes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2012, 10:54 PM #16
tacxplosion
 
 
tacxplosion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Guatemala (for real)
Have you tried running a gauge on the stab to see what the output pressure is? If it's got LP internals then that might also not get you fps until it's screwed in all the way (I know you said it has HP internals, but I can't really think of any other reason it'd be so hard to get fps, it's either the valve or the HPR).

Last edited by tacxplosion : 03-31-2012 at 10:56 PM.
tacxplosion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2012, 11:02 PM #17
addicted2dunes
 
 
addicted2dunes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Orcutt, CA
addicted2dunes has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by tacxplosion View Post
Have you tried running a gauge on the stab to see what the output pressure is? If it's got LP internals then that might also not get you fps until it's screwed in all the way (I know you said it has HP internals, but I can't really think of any other reason it'd be so hard to get fps, it's either the valve or the HPR).
For CO2 should I have the Standard Pressure 0-700 psi, Low Pressure 0-300 psi or High Pressure 0-900 psi?
addicted2dunes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2012, 11:03 PM #18
Dk-79
SCHWING!
 
Dk-79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: North County, California
IIRC those old Psycho Ballistics bullet drops were known to starve markers for air.

I would replace the ON/OFF, and try a gauge on your stab. to see if it's working like it should. If you can find an easy to read 0-400psi ~ 0-500psi gauge, I would use that. It's not much more than a benchmark, as sweetspotting is done through the chrono, but it'll tell you if you're not getting enough air or over pressurizing the valve.

Last edited by Dk-79 : 03-31-2012 at 11:05 PM.
Dk-79 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2012, 11:04 PM #19
addicted2dunes
 
 
addicted2dunes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Orcutt, CA
addicted2dunes has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dk-79 View Post
IIRC those old Psycho Ballistics bullet drops were known to starve markers for air.

I would replace the ON/OFF, and try a gauge on your stab. to see if it's working like it should.
It's a Dead On drop and ASA. What PSI gauge should I get?
addicted2dunes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2012, 11:05 PM #20
tacxplosion
 
 
tacxplosion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Guatemala (for real)
It doesn't really matter if it's CO2 or HPA, you should use either standard (ideal) or HP internals, any one that'll get you 350+ PSI. If you use LP internals, even if you max it out, it'll be on the lower side of the operating pressure for most 'cockers.
tacxplosion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2012, 11:06 PM #21
addicted2dunes
 
 
addicted2dunes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Orcutt, CA
addicted2dunes has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by tacxplosion View Post
It doesn't really matter if it's CO2 or HPA you should use either standard (ideal) or HP internals, any one that'll get you 350+ PSI. If you use LP internals, even if you max it out, it'll be on the lower side of the operating pressure for most 'cockers.
I compared my piston in the HPR to Palmers pics on thier website and the piston matches the standard pressure setup.....

Edit: the spring also matches standard pressure.

Last edited by addicted2dunes : 03-31-2012 at 11:10 PM.
addicted2dunes is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump