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Old 03-26-2012, 11:48 AM #1
a Lane Shift
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
"New" Azodin Kaos D issues...

I just bought some Kaos D's (Mechanical) brand new through my local field (he ordered them for us) in mid feburary. Used them 2-3 weeks ago, and they worked amazingly, no issues at all. Went to a big game this weekend, didn't bring any spare guns b/c there was no need, we just bought these new guns, and they were working perfectly...(also dry fired them the day before after installing the TechT "Hush" bolts, no problems at all)

...So we thought...

Went to chrono...mine stopped wanting to recock, and wouldn't even grab the sear when cocked manually. My bro couldn't get his to stop 'farting'... (again, not a single issue with the 3 weeks ago when we played for a few hours with them).

So i went back to our chairs and took the bolt/hammer out, and my hamer o-ring is nothing but a bunch of shriveled up mess which is missing atleast half of it. Really, less than one month and my hammer o-ring is bad? Bro's o-ring looked alittle less for the wear, but not what it should look like being in a brand new gun.

I replace my hammer o-ring w/ the only extra one that comes w/ the gun, cleaned and lubed everything/reassembled, and they shot okay again. Then after i play for a bit i notice i'm already running low on air...the next time i got hit, i brought my gun up on my should, and felt a small breeze coming from the screw on the side of the ASA...awesome, another quickly failing part on a NEW gun. Thankfully i had thread tape in my bag, so i did that up and it stopped leaking from there (as far as i could tell). Gun seemed fine after that.

Day #2 of scenario, we gas up the guns to re-chrono, i hear air leaking through the main valve??!?!?!?! Then my bro came over and i heard the same thing on his. I got into the Zero system and looked at the cup seal, since that is easiest to get to and determined the cup seal "good".

So, since i'm 3 hours from home, and sitting in a lawnchair in the dirt, i figured i'd wait till we got home before i opened the guns up any more than that. And just make sure i top my tank off before going back out every time. His was leaking much worse than mine, so thankfully our pistol's were working "okay" enough w/ the small paint that he felt comfortable using pistol all day.

My initial guess (after taking the Zero stuff off mine and inspecting the cup seal, and determining it "good") is that it is the o-rings on the valve that are bad, using the basis that my hammer o-ring was in wretched condition.

This whole situation was just dumb, we bought NEW guns so we wouldn't have to spend the first hour of each play day to get the guns functioning, we've done that for the past couple years and were tired of it. So much for that plan.

I hope to dig into the guns one of the days this week and see what the valve o-rings look like, and if they are less than stellar, i plan to call Azodin, b/c this should not happen.

--
Please keep in mind, i'm played for over 10 years, and have maintained/rebuilt a fleet of spyder/tippmanns for most of that time. I do not believe that these issues were caused by neglect on my part, as i'm pretty sure i'm a decent gunsmith when it comes to these types of markers
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:41 PM #2
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I have never seen a valve o-ring go bad in all my days playing. Only issue I have ever had with my zenith is the zero causing a leak. I simply turned it in half a turn and it was fine after that.

I REALLY like my Azodin guns. It dis-hearts me to see people having issues with them. When you re-installed your striker did you remove or loosen the grip frame substantially? Sometimes the sear can cut the o-ring if you install it without removing the frame.
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Last edited by AR15 guy : 03-27-2012 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 03-27-2012, 09:12 AM #3
a Lane Shift
 
 
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My case is that the valve o-rings are likely in just as bad of shape as my hammer o-ring was, since it was more or less shredded to small pieces by 3 hours of use within the first month of ownership. (i don't know yet, as i have yet to open it up enough to get the valve out and look at it) And i HAVE seen numerous valve o-ring failures in all my days of working on/making my own replacement parts for STBB type markers.

Also, i have NEVER had a hammer o-ring go bad by installing it w/o removing the grip frame, maybe its just just my technique. But the hammer o-ring was already bad (its why i had to remove the hammer to begin with), and it would not be causing a leak through the valve.

One last thing, if the leak is being caused by the Zero system not applying enough pressure to the valve pin, then why is it touted as something that is fully adjustable/tune-able if it can not be backed out more than 1-2 turns, when there is obviously more room to play than that? (and turning 'Zero' screw IN would result in decreased velocity and increased noise signature, also prevents normal operation on lower pressures)

Maybe i'll go back to the stock bolt to see if my issue with velocity is from the "hush bolt"...

But then that should not be the case, as i have installed stupid featherlight (as in, barely look at it and it pushes the valve open) valve springs in STBB guns before and not had issues with air leaking around the cup seal unless the cup seal was not making contact w/ the valve. So if that is the case, it is a poor design IMHO.

Either way, when i go to work on these, i'll gas it up first and test that. But i had to losen the valve spring (Zero system) b/c it was my last line of increasing velocity as my drive spring was screwed in all the way.

Last edited by a Lane Shift : 03-27-2012 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:56 PM #4
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I'm not sure what the deal is to be completely honest with you. I had a similar situation with my KP2 a few weeks ago. There was a leak down the barrel I couldn't stop. After several rebuilds and parts changes (valve orings, cup seal, swap internals with a friend) it finally just sealed up on it's own. I can't explain why it leaked or what fixed it but it stopped.

I've got a friend with a KP2 also (the reason I bought mine) and he has had regulator O rings blow out after about every other day of play. I can't explain why.

In my experience azodins are good guns when they're working, but have been quite troublesome for some and I'm not sure why. I still love my pump though.
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Old 03-27-2012, 04:36 PM #5
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Had my zenith leak like that down the barrel before out of simply turning the air on/off and then it just went away. I like my zenith but it just seems to mess up to much for it to be considered my primary and do try switching back to your stock bolt as the hush bolt didn't do well for my gun.
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:38 AM #6
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This makes me want to buy an Azodin.
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:44 PM #7
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Between my brother and I we have 3 azodins. Never one issue with them.
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Azodin Zenith- Ndz feedneck, hush bolt cp on/off, fasta w/exalt speed feed.
Azodin Kaos D- ndz feedneck, single frame
ALL MY GEAR IS FOR SALE
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Old 03-28-2012, 01:38 PM #8
a Lane Shift
 
 
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Okay, so i looked today at my bro's gun, the one that was leaking the worste.

Put the tank on, leaking through valve badly, screwed the Zero in really far, still leaking...fire a few shots, still leaking...

Took it all apart to get to the valve, and valve o-rings look good. Cup seal looks good as well. I noticed that the replacement cup seal that comes with the gun can in no way be used to actually replace the stock cup seal...they gave me more or less a spyder cup-seal, but how is it spossed to connect to the stock one? Glue and hope for the best?

I guess all i'm left with re-lube/assemble and see what happens...

Last edited by a Lane Shift : 03-28-2012 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 03-28-2012, 02:13 PM #9
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Sounds like they gave you a regular blitz/kaos cup seal instead of a cup seal for the zero system.
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Azodin Zenith- Ndz feedneck, hush bolt cp on/off, fasta w/exalt speed feed.
Azodin Kaos D- ndz feedneck, single frame
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Old 03-28-2012, 05:13 PM #10
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You know the cup seals screw off the valve stem right?
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:15 PM #11
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The zero system cup seal is way different than the normal screw on cup seal. All the other azodin semi autos have a normal old cup seal except the zenith or zero equipped guns.
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Azodin Zenith- Ndz feedneck, hush bolt cp on/off, fasta w/exalt speed feed.
Azodin Kaos D- ndz feedneck, single frame
ALL MY GEAR IS FOR SALE
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:57 PM #12
a Lane Shift
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenmage589 View Post
You know the cup seals screw off the valve stem right?
So, all these years i've been dremel cutting them then hot gluing them back together i was doing it wrong???!!?!?

Yes, i know, but the ones for the Zero system have an extremely elongated back shaft that goes several inches to meet the Zero system spring plate.

So, it appears as though they sent the wrong cup seals w/ my gun, i'll be rectifying this with a phone call tomorrow.

Also, not all cup seals screw on, some are for some inconceivable reason molded around the knurled end of the pin.

Gun update though, a once-over with a cleaning rag and some lube, reassembled, and now both are working fine. Still not happy that they needed this much TLC straight from the factory. They better frickin work next big game or i'll be 'that guy' when i call them back.
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Old 03-29-2012, 03:16 AM #13
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Switch back to stock bolt until everything is going well for you. In my experience Hush Bolt sometimes do funny things for your guns...
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Old 03-29-2012, 08:25 AM #14
a Lane Shift
 
 
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Only problem i think the hust bolt is causing right now is a huge drop in velocity as it is way less air efficient (causes more bolt drag, air leaks around bolt).

Am planing a side by side with same barrels/paint to see if they are infact quieter...but since we half to crank the velocity way up, it probly uses so much more air that it is just as loud, will test this out at some point soon i hope.
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Old 03-29-2012, 12:57 PM #15
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My hush bolt caused a 40fps decrease UNTIL I used Lucas air tool oil on it instead of sleek (all I had at the time). Now it gained about 20fps over the stock bolt.

I haven't got a chance to try it in my blitz yet.

Is air leaking around the bolt all the time? If so that isn't the bolts fault. That is a cup seal leaking.
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Azodin Zenith- Ndz feedneck, hush bolt cp on/off, fasta w/exalt speed feed.
Azodin Kaos D- ndz feedneck, single frame
ALL MY GEAR IS FOR SALE
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Old 03-29-2012, 09:04 PM #16
a Lane Shift
 
 
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So, the Lucas Air Tool oil i can get from the autoparts store? If so i'ma drive over there and get me some.

And you say when you used that you gained the -40 back plus an extra 20? Very anxious to here details.

-edit-

Also, side-by-side comparison today, had one in each gun, stood down range of them, had a friend shoot 6ft beside me, sounded to my trained ear to be 100% identical. Looks like i shoulda gotten a second barrel kit instead of the bolts.

Last edited by a Lane Shift : 03-29-2012 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 03-30-2012, 08:19 AM #17
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Yea I cannot tell a difference in sound either. And yes, I got the Lucas oil at Advance Auto parts. I refuse to give tech t anymore of my money. They want $10 for 1 oz of oil..that is ridiculous.

With the stock bolt I was at 290, with hush bolt and sleek I was at 250, then after wiping that off and using oil I was around 310.
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Old Feedback! 58+ 0-
Azodin Zenith- Ndz feedneck, hush bolt cp on/off, fasta w/exalt speed feed.
Azodin Kaos D- ndz feedneck, single frame
ALL MY GEAR IS FOR SALE
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Old 03-30-2012, 04:02 PM #18
a Lane Shift
 
 
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So, i just went and bought some of that oil. And now i'm wishing i had not even done that. I've heard that PBN has some low IQ's...but wow.

I saw no difference between my average brand marker-oil (you know, the stuff that comes with most guns) and Lucas tool-oil. None. At all. Which begs the question, what in the heck did you put on your bolt to drop it 50 fps??? (and your sure you didn't change spring adjustments this whole time?)

Stock bolt is still faster by atleast 30-40 fps.
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:01 PM #19
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I have a low IQ? Did you even read my posts? I only had SLEEK, which is a grease. I gained 50fps with the hush bolt going from GREASE to oil. I knew grease wasn't ideal, but it was all I had at the time and decided to try it.

Before you go and talk about how low someones IQ is you should try reading. Never once did I say Lucas air tool oil was any better than "paintball gun oil". It happened to be the first air tool oil I found to purchase.
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Old 03-31-2012, 07:32 PM #20
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The stock o-rings on the hush bolts are sometimes too big, switch the out for something smaller, that might be related to the drag
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