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Old 12-29-2003, 07:11 PM #64
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im getting my gun turtled not MARTINed and the reason that the turtling is more is because you get a two color ano and lifetime warrenty on your gun

the nexus cocker shoots 40cps but the eblade will not hit anything over 20 if that

read up before you post, the nexus can cycle at 40cps because of the ram with QEV's

but the eblade needs to have new settings with the cod and cdel plus other settings

to get the highest BPS not cps then you would need to have a lighter cocking mass as well as a super high lpr setting.

The turtle cocker reduces the back block by more than half so with the same lpr settings, eblade settings, and the already smaller cocking mass

the turtle cocker would in theory shoot alot faster than the nexus

and the way it looks is personal and the turtle is converted into a mini upon request
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Old 12-29-2003, 07:17 PM #65
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A) Turtling does not get you 2 color anno. Getting a second color I believe costs an additional $25.
B) I believe the warrenty is only on his parts. If the few parts he puts on are supposed to hold up as well as he says they will, why would you need a lifetime warrenty?
C) The EBlade is not capped, so hitting 20bps is entirely dependant on your marker. This in itself is a moot point, since no one is going to be shooting near 20 legitimately anyway.
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Old 12-29-2003, 09:45 PM #66
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LOL no matter how much you change the mass of the back block, if you dont change your settings your not gona shoot anyfaster buddy. The settings are what set the gun speed. . . So by reducing mass you can change your settings. . .leave your settigns the same then. . .well you changed nothing but looks.

Pat

PS still trying to see if changing mass actually changes cocking preasure.
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Old 12-29-2003, 10:18 PM #67
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guys from my understanding of physics which i can say is pretty good i agree with bimmer we are might i say u guys are talking grams not kilograms yes object in motion blah blah blah but the change is so minimal you would have to be talking rates of fire of 50 60 or even 70 bps consistantly to notice the change. the moving objects mass or back block etc would have to be moving at exagerated speeds to notice this weight difference. so to end my rebudle if u wish to call it that in human hands its just not posible to notice any difference if you like the looks get it turtle if not get it normal. because half of us if any can even shoot 25 bps consistant.
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Old 12-29-2003, 10:25 PM #68
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thats exactly what I was trying to say, they are using such an insignificant amount off mas in comparison the the force created by the stream of air. the effect isnt directly proportional as they would like to think. for 40kg would have a negligable effect unless working in extremely controlled environment.
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Old 12-29-2003, 10:31 PM #69
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Ok....honestly Bimmer...If you play or have played tourneys than you WILL atleast understand the dramatic weight reduction between the stock body and the body after being turtled....it is a very dramatic weight reduction and infact will be much lighter enabling the user to snapshoot much more efficently and quickly...which will in fact keep the player from exposing himself...which will infact make how fast your marker cycles IRRELEVANT...so...all in all....even if the performance aspect is not dramatic the fact that the weight of the marker itself is reduced is enough for many people to have this upgrade applied to their marker...now don't argue the weight of the marker doesn't matter. Tell me that you would rather play with your shoebox shocker over a turtled cocker. Tell me and I will laugh. Trust me...stop arguing about irrelevant things and apply the upgrade to an actual game where it doesn't matter if you can lower the LPR or not. The fact is IT DOESN'T MATTER. SNAP SHOOTING WILL BE MUCH EASIER...so let the thread die and stop arguing about your so called "knowledge" and realize that the markers overall weight is IN FACT DRASTICALLY REDUCED!

Sorry for the long and harsh post, but after reading through 4 pages of irrelevant **** with not one mention of the body's weight being drastically reduced, I am a bit moody. So thanks for putting up with this.
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Old 12-29-2003, 10:39 PM #70
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menace 2 society u started the thread so im directing this back at u basically it comes down to personal preference like almost everything in paintball it's your money all we can do is help in the end you will spend it. though in theory the turtle will outshine any cocker on the field the cycling of the guns are so close the weight so insignificant when it comes to operating pressure(because so many things have to be thrown into the equation)that u would like misnos stated have to have everything in a controlled enviroment (like a room and have a computer shoot your gun(with E-blade of course)with the perfect settings at ridiculous speeds to notice the difference.
so buy internals or something maybe a mask or save up for a car lol...

hope i could help
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Old 12-29-2003, 11:07 PM #71
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SPimpyKid You my friend are a just plain dumb. No one ever said that the body weight reduction was dumb, but we were not talking about body weight at all. And yes LPR and bps are VERY important to tourny play. . .but if you ever played any you would know that. . . . Let me show you how. . .lower LPR = less pressure on the bolt = less chops. . . Higher bps = more paint in the air= easier to hit target, specially running ones. The body weight reduction is good and all. . . .but thats not what we were talking bout on this thread. O yea and i will tell you right now i would rather play a game with my race cocker than a new 2k3 shocker or a timmy. . .why??? those are lighter . . .but i like the feel of the cocker better so therefore lighter weight has nothing to do with what i want to play with. . .so WEIGHT DOESNT MATTER TO ME!!!! lol Anyways way to come into a thread and say something stupid and totally not what we were talking about!

Pat
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Old 12-29-2003, 11:14 PM #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by SLUHStud
SPimpyKid You my friend are a just plain dumb. No one ever said that the body weight reduction was dumb, but we were not talking about body weight at all. And yes LPR and bps are VERY important to tourny play. . .but if you ever played any you would know that. . . . Let me show you how. . .lower LPR = less pressure on the bolt = less chops. . . Higher bps = more paint in the air= easier to hit target, specially running ones. The body weight reduction is good and all. . . .but thats not what we were talking bout on this thread. O yea and i will tell you right now i would rather play a game with my race cocker than a new 2k3 shocker or a timmy. . .why??? those are lighter . . .but i like the feel of the cocker better so therefore lighter weight has nothing to do with what i want to play with. . .so WEIGHT DOESNT MATTER TO ME!!!! lol Anyways way to come into a thread and say something stupid and totally not what we were talking about!

Pat
i agree and so we will defend this thread
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Old 12-29-2003, 11:47 PM #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by SLUHStud
LOL no matter how much you change the mass of the back block, if you dont change your settings your not gona shoot anyfaster buddy. The settings are what set the gun speed. . .
I set my cocking pressure relatively high because a faster cycling rate is more important to me than worrying about trying to get the bolt to pinch rather than chop a misfed ball. I play pretty often (average six times a month) and I have yet to chop once since I got the Worr Blade couple of months ago. Even before I got the Worr Blade, chopping was a rare event for me. Iím all about a fast gun.

Over the last couple of years, Iíve tried almost every setting one can think of and what I have my cocker set to now is what works best for me. The myriad of settings on cockers is one of the reasons why I like them so much. A little something for everyone to do a little something to anything.

Quote:
Originally posted by SLUHStud
So by reducing mass you can change your settings. . .leave your settigns the same then. . .well you changed nothing but looks. [/b]
Yep, thatís why I repeatedly mentioned that thereís no dynamic feedback mechanism.

Quote:
Originally posted by SLUHStud PS still trying to see if changing mass actually changes cocking preasure. [/b]
LOL. I think weíve gotten pretty good data on the impact of a 45 gram reduction. Perhaps you can go a bit higher to see at what point it will change. Remember, thereís only so much cocking mass you can reduce. As Iíve been saying all along, most of the work that the cocking pressure is going towards overcoming the tension of the main spring. If it canít do that, then nothing else matters.

The more you lower the cocking pressure, the slower the cycle rate. Is that what you really want? The trick is to know where to strike the balance.

Frankly, this whole thing about reducing cocking pressure is just an esoteric exercise instigated by a subculture of cocker fans that have way too much time on their hands. LOL
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Old 12-29-2003, 11:59 PM #74
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SpimpyKid, LOL. Have you ever walked into the middle of an intense discussion about one thing and ask why nobody is talking about something totally different? Thatís what you basically did.

AnyhooooÖ. You are singing to the choir when you say a lighter gun is better than a heavy gun. Now this applies to chicks too. I definitely prefer a lighter girl to a heavier one. Now some guys may beg to differ, but thatís them, I can only speak to my own preference.

My Shocker is definitely a beast, especially when you add an 88/4500. I tried to compensate for that by just going to the gym more often.

Last edited by Bimmer323is : 12-30-2003 at 12:28 AM.
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Old 12-30-2003, 12:54 AM #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by SLUHStud
lower LPR = less pressure on the bolt = less chops. . . Higher bps =
Technically you should be worried about the force on the ball, not the pressure to the ram. It's not pressure you have to worry about, it's the force.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
LOL. I think we?ve gotten pretty good data on the impact of a 45 gram reduction.
Personally, I don't think so. Stud still had different results. Like I've been saying I believe your test will be more appropriate when you have larger difference in weight. When you're looking at a smaller difference, you just won't see the true difference. All you've shown us is that by reducing the cocking mass by ~45g that the marker was unable to reliably go from a non-cocking state to a cocking state. That's it. You haven't shown us the difference in pressure between what *does* work and what *doesn't*.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
The more you lower the cocking pressure, the slower the cycle rate. Is that what you really want? The trick is to know where to strike the balance.
True, but that's another test no one has looked at. Although I'd have to think about it more (I'm tired and lazy right now), no one has thought of the impact on speed and how half-blocking the marker will affect it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
Frankly, this whole thing about reducing cocking pressure is just an esoteric exercise instigated by a subculture of cocker fans that have way too much time on their hands. LOL
Possibly, but it's still a good learning experience.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
My Shocker is definitely a beast, especially when you add an 88/4500. I tried to compensate for that by just going to the gym more often.
I've heard of that arguement before, but I personally don't think it really makes sense. I'm going to just throw out numbers here, so bear with me. Pretend you have an old Shocker and some big heavy tank attached. We'll pretend it weighs 10lbs. Although not extremely heavy at first, 10lbs is a bit to carry around all day while running around. So you decide to hit the gym and start lifting weights. After a while that 10lbs marker/tank doesn't seem so heavy and you're able to carry it around without a problem. Hell, you may have even noticed the muscles in your arms are bigger. Then it dawns on you... does the fact that you can now carry around a 10lbs marker with tank take away from the fact that a 2lbs marker will still be lighter? No. The 2lbs marker will still be 5 times lighter and it will still be easier to snapshoot with (assuming the marker itself still "feels" right of course). Granted, you'll have a little bit of money left over (gym fees perhaps?), but you'd still have to put in time to lift weights, etc. Just lifting weights isn't always a solution.
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Old 12-30-2003, 03:32 AM #76
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Quote:
Originally posted by SLUHStud
lower LPR = less pressure on the bolt = less chops. . . Higher bps
I agree that lower LPR = less pressure on the bolt = less chops because now the ram is exerting less force on the back block which in turn applies less pressure on the bolt. Again, I concur with you up to this point.

I THINK you are also implying that lower LPR will result in HIGHER BPS?? This is where I lost you.

A ball is fired each time the gun cycles. 1 cycle=1 ball fired. The cycle rate, besides the trigger, is controlled by the LPR. The pressure from the LPR determines how fast the ram will push back and pull forward the back block. So if you lower the LPR, would you not essentially slow down the cycle rate, which will in turn reduce BPS?

Youíre almost like saying, ďYou will drink MORE bottles of beer if you slow down.Ē

I know from experience that the gun distinctly cycles faster when I increase my Micro Rock. That distinctly makes the cycling snappier. The reverse is true when I lower my MicroRock.

Last edited by Bimmer323is : 12-30-2003 at 03:51 AM.
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Old 12-30-2003, 03:44 AM #77
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Quote:
Originally posted by FallNAngel Personally, I don't think so. Stud still had different results.
If you recall from his experiments, he conducted his experiments alone and had two different results between the two different guns using two different testing methods. Thatís quite an inconsistency. But never the less, Iím glad he took the effort to design an experiment and execute. Thatís more than what the vast majority of the people here have done.

My experiments by contrast have had 100% consistency. It had the SAME RESULT involving four different people, five different guns, and the experiment has been repeated well close to a dozen times. To me, I canít be more convinced of the findings. Iíve posted my findings here in great detail for everyone who wishes to read. Those who followed and understood my experiment should draw the same conclusion as I did.


Quote:
Originally posted by FallNAngel

I've heard of that arguement before, but I personally don't think it really makes sense. I'm going to just throw out numbers here, so bear with me. Pretend you have an old Shocker and some big heavy tank attached. We'll pretend it weighs 10lbs. Although not extremely heavy at first, 10lbs is a bit to carry around all day while running around. So you decide to hit the gym and start lifting weights. After a while that 10lbs marker/tank doesn't seem so heavy and you're able to carry it around without a problem. Hell, you may have even noticed the muscles in your arms are bigger. Then it dawns on you... does the fact that you can now carry around a 10lbs marker with tank take away from the fact that a 2lbs marker will still be lighter? No. The 2lbs marker will still be 5 times lighter and it will still be easier to snapshoot with (assuming the marker itself still "feels" right of course). Granted, you'll have a little bit of money left over (gym fees perhaps?), but you'd still have to put in time to lift weights, etc. Just lifting weights isn't always a solution.
My friend, you are thinking WAY WAY WAY too much here. I was only KIDDING!!! LOL Yes, my 2002 Shocker is relatively heavier than most guns, but Iíve never had a problem with either its size or weight. Itís real nice marker to shoot.

As for working out, Iíve been doing that most of my life and it has helped my game tremendously. Paintball can be very demanding physically and mentally.

Last edited by Bimmer323is : 12-30-2003 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 12-30-2003, 09:52 AM #78
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No, Higher lpr results in less chops the (. . . ) is moving to a new thought about bps. LOL sorry imma not that dumb. I was explaining to SP or whatever why a lower LPR matters, and also why bps was important. Which he seemed to imply was not. No, you are 100% correct in saying that lower lpr slows down the cycling. By how much, well you dont have any numbers to prove stuff . . .lol jk with ya.

As far as results you have gotten, great for you and i belive you 100%. The thing is for me i have gotten different results with my one cocker, and i get them as many times as i try it. THe 2k got different results, the same ones as you did. Now these tests were dont by myself the first time, but then i repeated them at the shop when i went up for the rockometer yesterday, so they all saw it up there too. I personally dont know if the turtle conversion is worth it, probly not, but hey if he wants to buy it go for it. As for what i have seen, it works on my gun and thats all that really matters to me.

Pat

PS bimmer i used the same test for both guns i tried, i didnt use two different methods for the 2k. I used my test where i set the lpr to the lowest possible and then added weight. Also i am grabbing some other gats this week and seeing what it does to those. They will be another FF race, a 2k1, and an e orracle, i will put the same rock reg on all of them.
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Last edited by SLUHStud : 12-30-2003 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 12-30-2003, 10:34 AM #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by FallNAngel Like I've been saying I
believe your test will be more appropriate when you have larger difference in weight. When you're looking at a smaller difference, you just won't see the true difference.
Perhaps expressing it in metric grams is whatís throwing you off your perception. Get out eight quarters and hold it in your hand, thatís very close to 45 grams. Remember, thatís my estimate of what the difference in weight before and after lightening up your cocking mass. As I said before, I think that 45 grams is a VERY generous estimation.

Also keep in mind that the pressure needed to move the cocking mass isnít a dead lift. Another words, youíre not picking it straight up. The cocking mass is sitting on the bolt, pump arm and some would say itís also on the cocking rod. This greatly reduces the energy necessary to move that cocking mass. Remember my example earlier about the shopping cart? The cocking mass is essentially RIDING in the shopping cart.

You keep wanting to increase the weight difference. You canít increase that it to a point where itís greater than the lowest cocking mass. Know what I mean?

Quote:
Originally posted by FallNAngel
All you've shown us is that by reducing the cocking mass by ~45g that the marker was unable to reliably go from a non-cocking state to a cocking state. That's it. You haven't shown us the difference in pressure between what *does* work and what *doesn't*.
What do you mean thatís it? Thatís everything!!! The pressure on the LPR where it became unable to reliably go from a non-cocking state to a cocking state is just a hair below where it WOULD cock reliably. IF the theory pans out that you COULD reduce your cocking pressure when you reduce your cocking mass, by 45 grams in this case, then it WOULD have reliably coked at that slightly lower pressure, but it did NOT!!!!
And thatís the whole point of the experiment!!! Not only did do that once, but for me, that test was repeated over a dozen times with the SAME result.

On another note, I am curious as to what kind of markers you have, especially your cocker setup and what kind of experience have with it. How long have you been playing paintball and how often. What kind of games do you usually play, speedball, woodsball, etc. I just like to get to know my fellow paintballers.
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Old 12-30-2003, 10:56 AM #80
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I in no way implied that bps was not important, I was implying the fact that all of you missed the true point of the turtle conversion and that is to reduce the weight of the marker...Now I'm sorry that I expressed my opinion in such a harsh way and apologize for it, it was late and I was tired, what more can I say. I'm just saying the only way the weight reduction should really matter in a bps manner is with a race or eblade/worrblade frame. However even with this I don't really believe that the bps may dramatically increase. I for one however, do believe with the dramatic weight reduction you will be much more compact and able to snap shoot much better, making yourself less of a target. This was basically the whole point of the '03 shocker. I again apologize for the harsh manner which I butted in.
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Old 12-30-2003, 10:59 AM #81
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are you addressing the "about paintball stuff" to me too?

LOl if not, sorry gona get it anyways.

Pat Gleason
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own freeflow Race millenium, a FF race lotus, a 2k that i just found in my closet haha, a NYX trix and a dragon timmy.
I play anything and everything, on my 3 man team i play back but usally end up getting the flag and diving into the 50 bunker halfway through the games lol.

what bout you bimmer.

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Old 12-30-2003, 11:04 AM #82
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SLUH- Who are you talking to? Lol, I am very confused.
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Old 12-30-2003, 12:26 PM #83
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If you were to actually read posts instead of just glancing at them, you would've read what Bimmer posted.

With that out of the way...

Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
If you recall from his experiments, he conducted his experiments alone and had two different results between the two different guns using two different testing methods. That?s quite an inconsistency.
Well, the first time he did his version of the test, he got a result different than you. The second time, he got similiar results as you. This leads him (and myself) to believe that it's how much cocking mass you have on it already.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
My friend, you are thinking WAY WAY WAY too much here. I was only KIDDING!!! LOL Yes, my 2002 Shocker is relatively heavier than most guns, but I?ve never had a problem with either its size or weight. It?s real nice marker to shoot.
Yeah, but it was late and I wanted to type. I wasn't replying to just what you said as I was the whole idea as everyone says it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
Perhaps expressing it in metric grams is what?s throwing you off your perception. Get out eight quarters and hold it in your hand, that?s very close to 45 grams. Remember, that?s my estimate of what the difference in weight before and after lightening up your cocking mass. As I said before, I think that 45 grams is a VERY generous estimation.
No, it's not throwing off my estimate. I don't quite think you're understanding what I'm saying. The 45g may be an exact estimate of how much cocking mass is taken off. But in order to get results like Stud did, you'd have to have more weight on there to get it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
What do you mean that?s it? That?s everything!!! The pressure on the LPR where it became unable to reliably go from a non-cocking state to a cocking state is just a hair below where it WOULD cock reliably. IF the theory pans out that you COULD reduce your cocking pressure when you reduce your cocking mass, by 45 grams in this case, then it WOULD have reliably coked at that slightly lower pressure, but it did NOT!!!!
And that?s the whole point of the experiment!!! Not only did do that once, but for me, that test was repeated over a dozen times with the SAME result.
Yes, but that test you did could be wrong and/or pointless. Like I said, all it showed was that by removing 45g from the cocking mass that the marker could not go from a non-cocking state to a cocking state. That's it. THAT ISN'T EVERYTHING!! Let me explain it this way. I'm using numbers off the top of my head, so don't go nuts if they're way off.

You have a cocker that they want to perform your test on with the 8 quarters. You strap the 8 quarters on and and set the LPR to it's minimum reliable cycle pressure and make a line. Next, you lower it to the point where it doesn't cycle and remove the 8 quarters. The marker still won't cycle reliably. I have two things to say about that.
1. Of course it's not going to cycle, you just lowered it below the point that it will. The point of turtling is to lighten your cocking mass so you can lower your pressure, not lower it beyond function.
2. You have supplied no numbers. NONE. For all we know the LPR pressure that it reliably cocks at is say... 65 and the number it fails at is... well, who knows... it doesn't matter anyway, because no one is going to lower their LPR pressure that far. This is why I'm saying we should be going by Studs test, even if the results are close between the two tests (eg. it may fail at 50psi, but cycle fine at 53). With his test, you can get usable information, all we can get from your test is the pressure that you can reliably cycle at and one that you can't. His will give us the minimum cycle with and without the extra weight. What if we get his numbers and they come out similiar to what I posted? What if the difference between a turtle and a normal cocker are 10psi cocking difference. All I've heard you claim is that you'll slow down your cocking speed. THIS ISN"T TRUE. There's less mass to accelerate, so it will accelerate faster at a lower psi. Hell, you'd be able to keep the LPR at your old setting and cycle faster.


As far as how long I've been playing:
I have a Dark Angel (actually my fiances, but it's still here) and an EBladed Cocker. I've owned another cocker that I'm selling (just sold it for $355). I've been playing for a bit over a year going once or twice a month. I normally try to play speedball.
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Old 12-30-2003, 01:26 PM #84
SPimpyKid
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My bad fallnangel...I missed that last part...thanks for pointing it out...
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