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Old 12-26-2003, 03:56 PM #22
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So the whole cocking mass of these is 30 or so grams? Thats alot lighter than i though it was. My bad

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Old 12-27-2003, 12:15 AM #23
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I must say that I am both intrigued and amused by the Turtle Cocker conversion. Iíve read the posts in this thread and have looked through the Turtle Cocker website to gain a better understanding. It raised more questions than answers.

My first thought was, if the conversion will give you faster this and lighter that, then why call it a turtle? That seems counterintuitive to me. When one thinks of a turtle, fast and light are not the adjectives that would come to mind. However, it would be a fitting name if they were in the business of converting electro cockers into pump guns.

Have any of you turtle converts collected any before and after statistics? What can you do now that you absolutely could not do before? Yes, I know itís lighter, but by how much? Some of you will say the gun is now dramatically faster, great, tell me how much faster compared to before.

The most significant innovation that increases BPS is the trigger frame. Going from slide trigger to hinge was a jump in BPS, then that increased even more with the advent of the RaceGun and the E-Blade. The Turtle Cocker website made no mention of modifying the trigger frame in anyway, so how can it significantly increase BPS? If it does, itís nominal at best.

Assuming you have either the Race or E-Blade and reasonably good pneumatic setup, the biggest factor that determines BPS rate is YOU. How fast you can train your fingers to pull the trigger. Unless youíre using full auto, it still takes one movement of the finger(s) to produce one triggering event that fires one ball. The next biggest factor is tuning your electronic frame to respond to your triggering motion. Lastly, pneumatics has to support the rate of fire. I highly doubt that a lighter and shorter bolt or lighter back block or shorter pump arm are going to translate into anything significant compared to non-turtled gun.

The only real tangible difference the Turtle Conversion offers is that you wonít get poked in your mask by the cocking rod due to the half block. Canít a $7 beaver tail pretty much do the same thing?

IMHO, the turtle conversion does little if anything to produce significant performance enhancements.

As skeptical as I am about the merits of the Turtle, my mind is still open to be convinced. But please come up with empirical data, not anecdotal statements like, ďWell, I think the performance has dramatically improvedÖ and you must a jackass if you want me to prove it!!Ē
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Old 12-27-2003, 12:32 AM #24
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How much does it lower the LPR

If you decrease the mass of the bolt and back block, there should be as measurable decrease in LPR output pressure, while achieving the same ROF. I mean, I can have a stock block and bump up the LPR to match the ROF of a turtle, but if I can get a 50% proven reduction in LPR without a decrease in speed, I would call that a heck of an increase in performance.
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Old 12-27-2003, 12:32 AM #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
My first thought was, if the conversion will give you faster this and lighter that, then why call it a turtle? That seems counterintuitive to me. When one thinks of a turtle, fast and light are not the adjectives that would come to mind. However, it would be a fitting name if they were in the business of converting electro cockers into pump guns.
More than likely because "Bunny Cocker" just didn't have the right ring to it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
Have any of you turtle converts collected any before and after statistics? What can you do now that you absolutely could not do before? Yes, I know it?s lighter, but by how much? Some of you will say the gun is now dramatically faster, great, tell me how much faster compared to before.
Well, I'm not sure about before, but it wouldn't be that hard to find out. From what I've been reading, the weight of the body (I believe *just* the body) is around .39lbs. I'm not sure if that's a full or mini body. You can also get a midget body as well.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
The most significant innovation that increases BPS is the trigger frame. Going from slide trigger to hinge was a jump in BPS, then that increased even more with the advent of the RaceGun and the E-Blade. The Turtle Cocker website made no mention of modifying the trigger frame in anyway, so how can it significantly increase BPS? If it does, it?s nominal at best.
Yes, but it's more like QEV's. Does it really make your BPS faster? Yes and no. You'll still be limited by how fast you pull, but the cocking time comes down since there's less mass to move. Since there's less to move, the cycling will be faster.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
Lastly, pneumatics has to support the rate of fire. I highly doubt that a lighter and shorter bolt or lighter back block or shorter pump arm are going to translate into anything significant compared to non-turtled gun.
You'll be able to cycle faster at the same LPR pressure you were at before, or you can turn the LPR down and stay at the same cycling pressure. From what I hear, just getting it to where the marker will cock is all you need.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
The only real tangible difference the Turtle Conversion offers is that you won?t get poked in your mask by the cocking rod due to the half block. Can?t a $7 beaver tail pretty much do the same thing?

IMHO, the turtle conversion does little if anything to produce significant performance enhancements.
  • Yea, a beaver tail would prevent that. But what about your cocking rod? How often have you had to screw it back in because it vibrated loose? What about time at the crono? One less thing to unscrew and screw back in just to change your velocity.
  • You no longer need a cocking rod
  • Lighter weight
  • How many turtle cockers have you seen around? It'll surely increase the resale value of your marker as well as make it more unique
  • As previously mentioned, faster cycle times
  • Less kick due to less moving mass
  • If you get it from Bob Long, you get a lifetime warrenty on his parts.

Technically the performance enhancements are faster cycling and less kick, but I personally think everything else you get is worth it too.
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Old 12-27-2003, 01:01 AM #26
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I have been looking into the same thing and I think its all crap. If anything you MAY be able to get a possible 4 bps or so more, but what does that do for someone who can only pull so fast, also wont bouncing be a bit of a factor. If turtles are so fast why is the nexxus the fastest? its lack of front block is only for looks, has nothing to do with the moving mass. as for resale, what are you going to get another 250 for your gun, whoops thats what you payed for it. Personlay I cant even call them cockers, they look totally diferent and the way they work changes dramatically. Kick, is not a problem for most people, my cocker kicks as much as my angel speed demon, which is next to nothing. I just dont see it any more, a few more upgrades to his gun will make im alot happier than if he got a mini block conversion, and his gun will be spared a horrific new look. If he wans looks and nothing more than go with he turtle, its always nice to have somthing different, but I think some nice milling on a regular gun and a good anno job will havethe same effect.
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Old 12-27-2003, 01:57 AM #27
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Sorry, how does it change the way it works dramatically? All it's changing is the way the hammer is pulled back, that's it.
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Old 12-27-2003, 02:45 AM #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by mIsnos
I have been looking into the same thing and I think its all crap. If anything you MAY be able to get a possible 4 bps or so more, but what does that do for someone who can only pull so fast, also wont bouncing be a bit of a factor. If turtles are so fast why is the nexxus the fastest? its lack of front block is only for looks, has nothing to do with the moving mass. as for resale, what are you going to get another 250 for your gun, whoops thats what you payed for it. Personlay I cant even call them cockers, they look totally diferent and the way they work changes dramatically. Kick, is not a problem for most people, my cocker kicks as much as my angel speed demon, which is next to nothing. I just dont see it any more, a few more upgrades to his gun will make im alot happier than if he got a mini block conversion, and his gun will be spared a horrific new look. If he wans looks and nothing more than go with he turtle, its always nice to have somthing different, but I think some nice milling on a regular gun and a good anno job will havethe same effect.
I agree with Aglar, the way it function is 99% the same. The only difference is what drags the hammer back.

The Nexus isn't the fastest. There have been other markers that have hit 40cps... it's not a huge deal. They also never say what LPR pressure they have to run the marker at to be able to get it to cycle that fast. Whatever the pressure is, I'm sure a turtled cocker can do it at a lower pressure. I'm pretty sure Nexus cockers *do* have a front block, it's just integrated a bit differently. In either case, I never said the front block had anything at all to do with the moving mass, but the backblock, bolt, cocking rod, pull/push pin and even the pump arm all contribute to more cocking mass. By litterally cutting the bolt, backblock and pump arm by literally more than half, you drastically reduce the cocking mass.

As far as reducing kick. Hell mine doesn't have much right now either, but the little bit of kick that it gets when I turn up the LPR will create enough kick to make it possible to bounce the trigger. The less bounce, the better.

As far as resale, you also have to think that perhaps it will be just plain easier to sell the cocker if it's halfblocked. Even if it took you just as long and you got what you put into it, that's more than what most people get. Hell, if I were told I could upgrade my cocker that would add performance to it and if I chose to sell my cocker I'd get back what I put into it, hell yes I do it.

Some people don't think getting a turtle is worth the cost and/or think they're ugly. That's a personal choice, but I think you should do more research as some of your ideas aren't quite correct.
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Old 12-27-2003, 04:36 AM #29
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Re: How much does it lower the LPR

Quote:
Originally posted by r90t
If you decrease the mass of the bolt and back block, there should be as measurable decrease in LPR output pressure, while achieving the same ROF. I mean, I can have a stock block and bump up the LPR to match the ROF of a turtle, but if I can get a 50% proven reduction in LPR without a decrease in speed, I would call that a heck of an increase in performance.
The LPR pressure is whatever you set it to and it will not budge until you reset it. The LPR does not have any kind of feedback mechanism to dynamically change its output pressure in response to any increase or decrease in the mass of the bolt and back block.

Furthermore, the LPR pressure has to be set at least high enough to overcome the tension of the main spring sitting between the hammer and the IVG. If the LPR pressure set is too low, then the ram does not get the pressure necessary to push the back block far back enough to catch the sear. (Note: The back block pulls the cocking rod back and in turn pulls the hammer back to allow the hammer lug to catch the sear.)

Once you set the LPR pressure high enough to get it to catch on the sear, the mass of the bolt and back block is very insignificant. The force that the ram applies to the back block will be the same regardless of the mass. Remember, there is NO feedback mechanism.

Quote:
Originally posted by r90t
if I can get a 50% proven reduction in LPR without a decrease in speed, I would call that a heck of an increase in performance.
An actual 50% reduction in LPR will most surely result in the gun not being able to cock.

The lower the LPR output pressure is, the less air will be sent to the ram to move the back block back and forth. What do you think that is going to happen to the cycle rate when the very power that drives it has been decreased?

This is how you set the LPR output pressure: Turn down the LPR way down. At this point, the gun will not fire when you pull the trigger. Then slowly turn it up while pulling the trigger continuously until it starts firing. At this point, make tiny adjustments to the LPR until it will fire each time you pull the trigger. The LPR output pressure is now at its absolute lowest for a working gun. As you can tell, itís the tension of the main spring that determines how low the LPR pressure can go, NOT the mass of the bolt or back block. It plays a very minor role at best.

The positive to having the LPR output pressure set low is that due to its lower cocking pressure, it is more likely to just pinch a misfed ball rather than chopping it. However, the negative side is that the gun will cycle slower.

You just have to play with the gun and strike a balance between pinching balls vs. cycle rate.
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Old 12-27-2003, 01:00 PM #30
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The wieght of the moving parts plays a significant role in the cocking weight. Its physics man, and object at rest will want to stay at rest, simple inertia. The heavier an object the move downward force and therefore friction between things. So therefore more force is needed to over come the inertia and make the stuff move. The moving parts do add a great deal to the cocking preasure. True the main spring sets the ABSOLUTE lowest preasure, the rest of the moving parts add more preasure needed. So the lower you can get that extra moving weight, the closer you can get to the absolute lowest preasure needed to cock the gun.

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Old 12-27-2003, 01:06 PM #31
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Re: Re: How much does it lower the LPR

Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
Once you set the LPR pressure high enough to get it to catch on the sear, the mass of the bolt and back block is very insignificant. The force that the ram applies to the back block will be the same regardless of the mass. Remember, there is NO feedback mechanism.
Obviously the mass of the backblock and bolt are not insignificant. If this were true, people wouldn't mind having aluminum bolts, but they weigh more, so more and more people are going all delrin. If the backblock mass was insignificant, SLIK would never had made their 5g backblock. Although the mass of the backblock and bolt may be small when opening the chamber, when closing it, it matters a bit more. I'd like to see what kind of pressure you'll be running your LPR at to get a coff time of 14 or less with a heavy backblock and bolt.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
The lower the LPR output pressure is, the less air will be sent to the ram to move the back block back and forth. What do you think that is going to happen to the cycle rate when the very power that drives it has been decreased?
That's something many people say about lowering their LPR pressure. But what if just setting the marker low enough to cock is good enough to get a fast ROF?
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Old 12-27-2003, 01:46 PM #32
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cmon all you guys talk about physics, well if you think you know about physics then it should be obvious to all of you that this is crap. The force exerted by the air is a great amount and the mass in this case has very little friction, so having a larger mass even if its triple will not affect the speed much at all. This is not a dividing effect here, it is not directly proportional.
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Old 12-27-2003, 01:57 PM #33
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true, there's little friction.. mainly the friction of the bolt and hammer, BUT there's still weight there that has to be moved. That weight will contribute to how much pressure is needed to cock the marker. The lighter the backblock and bolt, the less weight that has to be moved back and forth. The less weight, the more the spring becomes the determining factor to overcome.

Just imagine the backblock weighs 1lb. Now the main spring is still going to be a big factor in cocking pressure, but you *will* have to worry about the backblock weight. By decreasing the weight of the backblock, the spring becomes more of a factor in determining the minimum weight.
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Old 12-27-2003, 02:51 PM #34
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Friction is minimal, but it is still there. Thats why o rings and nyltron bolts and what not. However the real thing is the force needed to over come the inertia of the moving parts. And as Fallen said, the mass of hte moving parts is very important on the closing part of the pump cycle.

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Old 12-27-2003, 02:59 PM #35
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i think it makes ur cocker look ugly save some money and get the e-blade
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Old 12-27-2003, 04:45 PM #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by SLUHStud
The wieght of the moving parts plays a significant role in the cocking weight. Its physics man, and object at rest will want to stay at rest, simple inertia. The heavier an object the move downward force and therefore friction between things. So therefore more force is needed to over come the inertia and make the stuff move. The moving parts do add a great deal to the cocking preasure. True the main spring sets the ABSOLUTE lowest preasure, the rest of the moving parts add more preasure needed. So the lower you can get that extra moving weight, the closer you can get to the absolute lowest preasure needed to cock the gun.
While your basic understanding of Newton's laws of motion is correct, there is more to it than that in the context of this discussion. That is how the weight of the moving parts affects the required LPR output pressure. Remember, the LPR output pressure MUST be at least high enough to cock the gun, if not, then everything else is moot because the gun is dead in the water.

When I say the weight of the of moving parts is insignificant, I was referring to the impact of the minimal weight savings of various lightened parts upgrades. Do you think reducing your moving parts weight by 20 or 30 grams is going to reduce the necessary minimum LPR output pressure by any significant amount?

Again, the LPR output pressure MUST be at least high enough to consistently cock the gun. That is the pressure MUST overcome the tension of the MAIN SPRING. To illustrate this, next time you air up your cocker, pull the cocking rod back until you hear a click, thatís your gun cocking. That tension you feel before you hear the click is the main spring between the hammer and the IVG. THAT tension is what the LPR output pressure has to consistently overcome in order for the gun to fire correctly.

While the weight of the moving parts IS a variable, its impact is nominal. Remember, weíre only talking about weight differences of a few grams, not kilograms.

To put all these theories and conjectures to rest, Iíve devised a simple experiment. I taped eight quarters to the back block of my FF Rhythm cocker. Four on each side. You can see the pictures at http://www.neopaintball.netfirms.com/cockingmass.htm

Each quarter weighs 5.67 grams (according to http://www.coinsite.com/content/cdan...darchive16.asp ). 8 x 5.67= 45.36 grams. I basically added 45 grams to the weight of my moving parts or cocking mass, as some of you are calling it.

Once the quarters are secured to my back block, I aired up the gun and lowered my LPR (Palmer MicroRock) output pressure way down. Then I slowly raised it until it starts cocking. Then I fine-tuned to get the absolute minimum LPR output pressure that allows me to fire 20 consecutive shots where it fires normally. I used a Sharpe pen to mark the knob setting. Then I lowered the LPR output pressure to where it no longer fires correctly and made another mark with the Sharpe.
I then took off the quarters for the next phase of the experiment. By removing the quarters, I essentially reduced my moving parts weight by 45 grams. The 45 grams used in this experiment is probably more weight than you can reduce with any lightened parts upgrade. So this is a best-case scenario to test the effects of reduced weight on LPR output pressure.

I set the LPR knob back to the first Sharpe mark where Iíve determined is the setting of absolute minimal LPR output pressure. I fired 20 shots and each fired normally. I think everyone can agree that at this point itís behaving as it should.

I then set the LPR to the second Sharpe mark where it starts to misfire with the quarters strapped on to the back block. Now, those who believe a reduced moving parts weight will allow you to reduce LPR pressure will assume the gun will fire normally.

ResultÖ. The gun only fired 5 shots before it started to misfire. Further firing produced more of the same. I turned the LPR knob back to the first mark and it fired normally again.

This first round of experiments clearly shows that a 45 gram weight reduction of moving parts does NOT let you lower the absolute minimum LPR output pressure.

I carefully repeated this experiment two more times and got virtually same results. I would have repeat it couple of more times to further test the results, but the next door neighbor lady got really irate with all the noise so I had to stop.
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Old 12-27-2003, 07:35 PM #37
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that goes back to what I said, the effect is not division based on the ratio of weight, it is not proportional.
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Old 12-27-2003, 08:05 PM #38
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Lets go back to basics

When we say raises CPS, we don't point that instead of 33 cps, you can do 37! We mean that you can drastically lower your cycling time and shoot at a standard bps at a much lower pressure. Also the weight of the recipricating mass is lowered, and as we all know, we get lesser kick, which leads to improved accuracy at higher rates of fire which you could achieve with this conversion (longest sentence ever). And although for most of us this is out of the question, turtling a cocker raises demand for your cocker.

If I had the money, and I didn't have a tri anno, I'd do this conversion. There are only a few negatives to it.

Can't change hammer, not that you'd need to.
And I'd assume you need a different bolt and pump arm..
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Old 12-27-2003, 11:08 PM #39
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Hum. . . . i did the same type of test with my race Millenium as you did with the quarters and all. I got different results. I was able to lower my preasure to lower than what it had previously been able to cycle at. Granted it wasnt as much as i had thought, but i was able to get it lower. Ill go to the shop and use the rock o meter and see what readings i get with an aluminum bolt and a nyltron bolt and swithc out the back blocks from a stock 2k2 to a slik.

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Old 12-27-2003, 11:28 PM #40
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not only is he new, hes a damn moron. Bimmer, do some research before you start trying to post controversial stuff. Halfblock conversions, while they do look like ***, acctually dramatically improve preformace in the way of lower cocking mass, and if you dont know what that does for a cocker then you shouldnt be trying to argue with more knowledgeable people. Dont think you can come into the spotlight with stupid long posts using wrong information you pulled out of your ***, it just makes you look dumb. Do some reading.
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Old 12-27-2003, 11:39 PM #41
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your quarter test sounds like you had the right idea but you ****ed up when you tested for the lowest point before it misfired under the higher weight of the quarters. What you should have been looking for with that experiment was the lowest posible (consistent) cocking pressure of your setup with added weight. Then you should have removed the weight and tested again for the lowest possible pressure of cocking with the lightened setup. Use the rockometer you have and give us pressures to compair between the lightened cocking mass and the heavy cocking mass. You had the right idea with the test but apparently (from what i got out of that post) you tried to see if your setup would work with less cocking mass at a the pressure it would misfire at with the heavy cocking mass. Look for specific minimums for each and then show us NUMBERS. Also i believe the idea behind less chops is momentum of the reciprocating mass, not so much the acctual lpr pressure.
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Old 12-27-2003, 11:42 PM #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by FallNAngel
Martins cockers are pretty much the same thing as a turtle, except the turtle has a delrin backblock.
psssh, you get a freaking full mill with a martin. Bob hacks off your upper tube and throws on a delrin block.
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