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Old 03-22-2012, 08:31 AM #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfl mike View Post
Exactly again, this is the first R/F upgradeable hopper to ever need more than 1 kit purchase.
Actually it's not. The TM series Rip Clip is this way too and was since it was released quite a few years ago now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfl mike View Post
O and 30 bucks per kit? Isnt it obvious, its a tactic to bring in some cash.
LOL, so far from the truth. Those little circuit boards with all of the wiring harnesses are a pain and expensive to make. I believe overall we have made a loss on the sales of the RF kits. It certainly wasn't done to "bring in the cash". It was done because of the ability to get the most out of the system when the two work together in synergy.
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Old 03-23-2012, 05:09 AM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
Actually it's not. The TM series Rip Clip is this way too and was since it was released quite a few years ago now.



LOL, so far from the truth. Those little circuit boards with all of the wiring harnesses are a pain and expensive to make. I believe overall we have made a loss on the sales of the RF kits. It certainly wasn't done to "bring in the cash". It was done because of the ability to get the most out of the system when the two work together in synergy.
I dont know about that scenario stuff so w/e, but still it doesnt change the fact that there is no heads up on the fact you need 2 kits.

Ok thats bull, I dont know how hard the stuff is to make, but I know its cheap. My cats broke a bunch of my pulse and old Prophecy harnesses a while back, the only thing that was salvaged was the the 2 plastic ends on a couple harnesses. I brought them to Batteries Plus and the guy seriously put new wire on them and pretty much did it for free, but I insisted he take a tip so I tipped him like 10 bucks (the solder gun I have is too powerful for this tiny wire, it just melts everything). I know boards/chips like that are very cheap these days too. I dont know how much money/effort it takes to program those things, so that might be a different story.

Im not doubting that the new chips are better, in fact I know they are. The point is this is one of the first loaders (apparently not the first) that needs 2 chips and is not mentioned until you read the manual, which in most cases, probably means you already bought it. While at the same time the 1 chip systems have worked just fine. Now I know some people have problems with them, but that in most cases its their fault because they didnt know what they were doing, and they didnt read the manual.

At the same time though, most people didnt have issues with the old R/F system, not to mention you could have easily put them stock inside the Z2 or added some sort of feature to the board to accommodate that, like previous loaders. Theres not even an option for people to only use a one chip system if they dont care about "getting the most out of the system". Which certainly appears to be a way of making people spend more. Not to mention by just looking at the people who buy these things (target market), it certainly appears to be a way of making more money. Im sure the guys that do the marketing arent stupid, they know people that buy this loader probably have a decent amount of money coming in, considering this is a top end loader. On top of the fact that to use the R/F system it takes more spending from people it probably means they dont mind spending extra money on it. So then it just seems they took advantage of that and said something along of the lines of "whats another 30 bucks to these people?" or at least in layman's terms.

Besides I thought you were designer? Not a marketer, wouldnt that be like a whole different department at the company? Now im not saying that is whats going on, but from a consumer stand point thats what it certainly appears to be. Not to mention this is coming from someone who works there/relies on them for income (not trying to say anything personal here but thats like believing an alcohol addict when he says "I dont have a problem".).
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Why do people do this wanna-be hk thing? I mean hk people dont even play paintball, they just whine and start drama while wearing the ugliest stuff. Seriously you find light blue and pink to be attractive colors for your parents 1500 dollar investment (your gun/marker)? If you want to whine keep it off the field and save it for the internet; O wait! THATS EXACTLY WHAT YOU DO! Haha, if you don't play then don't whine.


I want your G6r parts and upgrades, sell them to me, because you wont get anything for them if you sell/trade them with the gun.
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3808906

Last edited by cfl mike : 03-23-2012 at 05:12 AM.
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Old 03-23-2012, 07:05 AM #24
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I can only ever tell the truth if some one doesn't want to believe me they are welcome to do their own research and I will leave them to make up their own minds. The connectors are not cheap and when you have three on each harness as well as manual labour assembling them it adds up fast. Given that very few people that buy the loaders use RF the amount of units we make is small too. The wire is the cheapest part of the whole thing

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Old 03-23-2012, 08:42 PM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
I can only ever tell the truth if some one doesn't want to believe me they are welcome to do their own research and I will leave them to make up their own minds. The connectors are not cheap and when you have three on each harness as well as manual labour assembling them it adds up fast. Given that very few people that buy the loaders use RF the amount of units we make is small too. The wire is the cheapest part of the whole thing
Thats true, the wire probably is the cheapest part, but the point was, I know that at least the parts them selves are not expensive; but making use of them/programming, like I said, might be a different story, I have no knowledge of that I dont work there.

For the other stuff, if you read, I didnt say I didnt believe you, but I am definitely questioning whats going on here. Still doesnt change the fact the Prophecy is my favorite loader of all time, but where would we be if we didnt ask questions about what is happening around us (probably where this country as a whole is going now)?
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Why do people do this wanna-be hk thing? I mean hk people dont even play paintball, they just whine and start drama while wearing the ugliest stuff. Seriously you find light blue and pink to be attractive colors for your parents 1500 dollar investment (your gun/marker)? If you want to whine keep it off the field and save it for the internet; O wait! THATS EXACTLY WHAT YOU DO! Haha, if you don't play then don't whine.


I want your G6r parts and upgrades, sell them to me, because you wont get anything for them if you sell/trade them with the gun.
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3808906
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Old 03-24-2012, 07:21 AM #26
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I'm not sure, because I'm not a Rotor user, but don't you need to buy a new board for the hopper and for the gun if you want to use this type of technology?
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Old 04-11-2012, 10:23 PM #27
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Originally Posted by Simon View Post
I can only ever tell the truth if some one doesn't want to believe me they are welcome to do their own research and I will leave them to make up their own minds. The connectors are not cheap and when you have three on each harness as well as manual labour assembling them it adds up fast. Given that very few people that buy the loaders use RF the amount of units we make is small too. The wire is the cheapest part of the whole thing
Simon,

I have a kit here that I generated a BOM for. If your purchase volumes were 500pcs and you could accept a 6 to 8 week lead time, I can give you an informal quote of $12 per kit. PM me if interested or if you have additional requests.

P.S. Your site is still down.
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:34 AM #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. S. Holmes View Post
Simon,

I have a kit here that I generated a BOM for. If your purchase volumes were 500pcs and you could accept a 6 to 8 week lead time, I can give you an informal quote of $12 per kit. PM me if interested or if you have additional requests.

P.S. Your site is still down.
Again, proves my point and im sure there is a possibility of other suppliers out there selling for cheaper (with something equal or similar).
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Why do people do this wanna-be hk thing? I mean hk people dont even play paintball, they just whine and start drama while wearing the ugliest stuff. Seriously you find light blue and pink to be attractive colors for your parents 1500 dollar investment (your gun/marker)? If you want to whine keep it off the field and save it for the internet; O wait! THATS EXACTLY WHAT YOU DO! Haha, if you don't play then don't whine.


I want your G6r parts and upgrades, sell them to me, because you wont get anything for them if you sell/trade them with the gun.
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3808906
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:39 AM #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. S. Holmes View Post
Simon,

I have a kit here that I generated a BOM for. If your purchase volumes were 500pcs and you could accept a 6 to 8 week lead time, I can give you an informal quote of $12 per kit. PM me if interested or if you have additional requests.

P.S. Your site is still down.
Thanks but I don't get to make purchasing decisions anymore. Your quantity would be about right though.

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Again, proves my point and im sure there is a possibility of other suppliers out there selling for cheaper (with something equal or similar).
*sigh* it doesn't. It proves the need for more economics classes.

Does the $12 include shipping packaging and all of the wiring harnesses? Let's just for one second say that it does. (I suspect it doesn't include the packaging and shipping though). Also that doesn't include any royalties to the inventor. There are several inventors and many patents that cover this technology.

If our cost was $12, what do you think the retail would be?

Just to cover our overheads, warehousing, salaries, shipping, marketing etc. it is around 25 points That's before we make any profit on an item.

Let's say that the dealer has to make the same level just before ANY profit.

That would make it $16 that we would sell it for and $21.33 that your dealer would sell it to you for...

So for a dealer (your local store etc.) to be able to sell it you for no profit at all and out of the goodness of his heart the cost would be $21.33

Now let's take a look at what you can buy it for currently...

First hit I get on google is Compulsive and they are selling it for $24.95 http://www.compulsivepaintball.com/product.asp?ic=15123

Boss Paintball has it for $29.95 http://www.bosspaintballproducts.com/prophecy_parts.htm

Now lets say we want to make some money so we stay in business, and the dealer wants to make some money to stay in business (after all you do want to be able to buy paintball products don't you? And you do want somewhere to buy them from?

So let's say a 50 point margin. Which really isn't a "great margin" compared to many industries but then paintball runs on crappy margins.

So $12 becomes $24 that we sell it for. And your dealer sells it to you for $48...

So you can see that no one whatsoever is making any money of these things, let alone huge profits.

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Old 04-12-2012, 09:03 AM #30
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Originally Posted by Simon View Post
Thanks but I don't get to make purchasing decisions anymore. Your quantity would be about right though.
Just FYI to keep your current supplier honest.
The price includes everything except shipping.

Your price estimates are way too generous. A retailer rarely stocks items they can't double their money on.... unless their online with little overhead.

Even at 100% markup, paintball shop retailers don't make many sales and at the end of the year they TYPICALLY net less than a half dozen vending machines (true sad facts).

Even if you made $8 profit on each unit... times 500 annual units... you'll net $4k per year. How much engineering did you spend to develop that board? $20k?

Now, to keep you honest... what's the point of only selling one RF unit?

P.S. Your site is still down.
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Old 04-13-2012, 03:01 AM #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
Thanks but I don't get to make purchasing decisions anymore. Your quantity would be about right though.



*sigh* it doesn't. It proves the need for more economics classes.

Does the $12 include shipping packaging and all of the wiring harnesses? Let's just for one second say that it does. (I suspect it doesn't include the packaging and shipping though). Also that doesn't include any royalties to the inventor. There are several inventors and many patents that cover this technology.

If our cost was $12, what do you think the retail would be?

Just to cover our overheads, warehousing, salaries, shipping, marketing etc. it is around 25 points That's before we make any profit on an item.

Let's say that the dealer has to make the same level just before ANY profit.

That would make it $16 that we would sell it for and $21.33 that your dealer would sell it to you for...

So for a dealer (your local store etc.) to be able to sell it you for no profit at all and out of the goodness of his heart the cost would be $21.33

Now let's take a look at what you can buy it for currently...

First hit I get on google is Compulsive and they are selling it for $24.95 http://www.compulsivepaintball.com/product.asp?ic=15123

Boss Paintball has it for $29.95 http://www.bosspaintballproducts.com/prophecy_parts.htm

Now lets say we want to make some money so we stay in business, and the dealer wants to make some money to stay in business (after all you do want to be able to buy paintball products don't you? And you do want somewhere to buy them from?

So let's say a 50 point margin. Which really isn't a "great margin" compared to many industries but then paintball runs on crappy margins.

So $12 becomes $24 that we sell it for. And your dealer sells it to you for $48...

So you can see that no one whatsoever is making any money of these things, let alone huge profits.
So what that costs you 50 cents per unit on wiring and shipping, at tops? How does not knowing your companies specific costs, not add up to knowing how economics works?

Anyways, I didnt say it was for "huge profits" I said it was just to make more money. Though I do think there is a greater profit margin on these right now, and for a few reasons; you guys probably get your supplies cheaper than what has been mentioned. If you guys supposedly dont make much money on them, why would you go out of your way to make everyone buy 2? Not to mention even if your only making a small amount per unit, when you actually look at numbers sold it adds up and is just one of those things that make business work. If Empire knew that this was going be (supposedly) not a big money maker then im sure its not something you guys rely on then, or really even bother with, if it wasnt going to bring in enough money to make some net. The food/grocery industry is probably about the same on their profit margins (NOT talking about prepared foods), if not worse, of course they sell in much higher numbers though.

I might have not used the best wording ^ but all im trying to say is, why 2? Most likely money. Sure it might be a better functioning, but for the Z2, it doesnt really offer the option (to use only 1 set), and it doesnt really seem like theres a whole league of improvement of performance here to justifying, doubling my costs to run R/F.

Like I have said before, I still dont know what it takes to actually program them, so again this might be more of a hassle than I know. Also I thought you guys/Empire/KEE actually had the patents on this stuff? If not, well, I have never had to get a copyright, so I dont know what that would cost for something like this.
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Why do people do this wanna-be hk thing? I mean hk people dont even play paintball, they just whine and start drama while wearing the ugliest stuff. Seriously you find light blue and pink to be attractive colors for your parents 1500 dollar investment (your gun/marker)? If you want to whine keep it off the field and save it for the internet; O wait! THATS EXACTLY WHAT YOU DO! Haha, if you don't play then don't whine.


I want your G6r parts and upgrades, sell them to me, because you wont get anything for them if you sell/trade them with the gun.
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3808906

Last edited by cfl mike : 04-13-2012 at 03:05 AM.
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Old 04-14-2012, 08:08 PM #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. S. Holmes View Post
Now, to keep you honest... what's the point of only selling one RF unit?.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfl mike View Post
I might have not used the best wording ^ but all im trying to say is, why 2? Most likely money.
The older Magna RF kit was sold as an individual RF module as well. If you had a Halo/Empire B and wanted RF you had to buy the Magna kit for your compatible hopper which resulted in two chips (gun/hopper). The older magna RF chip is also compatible with the newer version for the Z2 so why sell two new RF chips as a pair? Or, why include RF as stock on a hopper when the percentage of users that use RF is very small? Especially if its inclusion makes it more expensive and complicated. If a user owned the older Prophecy and were using RF they already have a chip for their gun. That being the case, why buy them as a pair when you already have one? Then you'd have people here complaining they were forced to buy two instead of one. Err...wait.

Then again, no one is forcing anyone to use RF when the Z2 works great stock without it.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:31 PM #33
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People actually use RF chips?
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Old 06-13-2012, 10:40 AM #34
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Personally I dislike having to grab the extra part as well to make it compatible. I had an original Prophecy and a Magna since right around their release dates (still use my V2'd original proph). I got a Z2 a few weeks ago and before an event went to setup RF and couldn't.
I'm a bit disappointed that I have to purchase a second kit to enable the RF vs. just having it on the standard board.

Empire makes great stuff, and some of the best loaders on the market, but I would much rather see the RF Capability come stock on the board.
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Old 06-13-2012, 11:27 AM #35
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NECRO POOOOST! haha but in all seriousness, I really and truly believe that empire is banking their financial situation on these chips. It only makes sense that this company, so large and diverse, is raking in the cash with these chips. I mean I have never seen one personally being used in real life, or met anyone who has one (or 2 in this outrageous circumstance) but I imagine that every other user I have yet to meet is whole heartily invested in them. It is a great financial strategy for them and I applaud their overall business savvy. Come on people, if you dont like it, go buy a new board for your rotor at around 100$ a pop.
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Old 06-15-2012, 06:36 AM #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brules
So I just got my RF kit for my Z2/Ego 11.

I pop it open and read the instructions, and lo and behold you must have 2 RF kits to make it work with the Z2 as the greedy *******s at Empire decided to RAISE THE PRICE, yet REMOVE valuable features from the Z2.

To make RF work, you MUST BUY 2 $29.99 KITS for the Z2 and your marker.

Their labeling is AMBIGUOUS AT BEST:

I am really pissed as I think this is a **** move to charge more, yet remove a great feature.

So now to get this thing to work, I have to get ANOTHER RF kit. Grrrr - hope my local store has one!


SO BUYER BEWARE - THE Z2 IS NO RF READY AND WILL REQUIRE 2 RF KITS TO WORK!!!!!!
That is garbage of empire. Just another reason to keep my 3.5 year old rotor
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Old 06-27-2012, 06:06 PM #37
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@Simon.
If I have 2 of the RF "transmitters" that were used to send for the original prophecy is all I need a harness for my Z2? I have 1/2 dozen of the RF chips cause I had one in each of my guns, now that I use only 2 guns really I could swap the others out in it's place.

Any help would be grand.
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Old 06-27-2012, 08:30 PM #39
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Cool how do I get one of the new Z2 Harness'?
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Old 11-08-2012, 06:21 PM #41
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quick question???

what about the people that paid 100 bucks for their LTD kit???


will my LTD work in my new z2 hopper??

the board doesn't seem to sit flush on the new z2 base plate

I love the LTD
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