[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by Neon Lime

This thread is making me want to punch a wall. What is with everyone and this whole "kills" thing? It's called eliminations, stop making paintball sound like Call of Duty. People don't DIE in paintball.

I call it "eliminations" in CoD, and "kills" in paintball

- when was the last time someone died playing CoD btw?

[Paintballion]

I think this is a great idea, but you need to take it for what it is. Kills can only be confirmed kills in the end. A k/d ratio can only be looked at loosely. What if I go get that last player and trade out with him so we can get that point? now I have a k/d ratio of 1. when my back player that wasnt hit shot someone off the break and the guy going to fill, never got shot when I finished out the game. and now has a k/d of 2. I do that in 2 games and he does it in 2 games and now im still at a k/d of 1 and he is looking very good at 4. Its a great idea but people need to look at it for what it is in the end. comparing back or front players to other "back" or "front" players (respectively) is a GREAT idea in this case although no one likes classifying everyone this way it is the only way to be able to compare this data with any sort of legitamancy.

[Racso]

Originally Posted by Paintballion

I think this is a great idea, but you need to take it for what it is. Kills can only be confirmed kills in the end. A k/d ratio can only be looked at loosely. What if I go get that last player and trade out with him so we can get that point? now I have a k/d ratio of 1. when my back player that wasnt hit shot someone off the break and the guy going to fill, never got shot when I finished out the game. and now has a k/d of 2. I do that in 2 games and he does it in 2 games and now im still at a k/d of 1 and he is looking very good at 4. Its a great idea but people need to look at it for what it is in the end. comparing back or front players to other "back" or "front" players (respectively) is a GREAT idea in this case although no one likes classifying everyone this way it is the only way to be able to compare this data with any sort of legitamancy.

I think that's why they want to implement Front/Mid/Back positions. Also sacrifices might be something to implement. Just like in baseball. If there are less than 2 outs, and a man on third, the batter would be congratulated if he hit a deep pop fly.

If the game is down to >2 on 1, and the team with more players sacrifices a player for a trade out to get the point, then that is worth it.

Relating to other sports, it is not up to the refs or umpires to determine statistics. There is a dedicated person (or multiple) that do nothing but record stats. Obviously this requires reviewing plays after they're done. Paintball is fairly fast paced so it could be like football where if you want "live" stats, they can do what they can, but afterwards, everything is reviewed and adjusted accordingly. Off the break would probably be the hardest to track, but like I said, just give 1/2 points to two players if it is that confusing.

[d0cwh0]

when do we get to see the statistics? After the event?

[jgill07]

Originally Posted by deltapaintball

Think Fantasy Speedball.

Heheh, I love it. With the 1st overall pick of the 2012 fantasy paintball draft, jgill07 selects Dynasty sleeper Sean "Crunchy" McDonald.

Seriously though, this is a great development for paintball. The stats will be inherently slightly flawed due to the speed and commotion of the game, but it will be a valid measure to compare players of similar position types AND it will help the general public understand/wrap their heads around the game.

[shark6428]

Originally Posted by John

No, that's not it.

The PSP is requiring that there be space that is 4" by 3" for a league provided loader sticker at least on the right hand side of the loader.

Pro Teams are speculating that will help identify players and not just be a big PSP sticker.

[IG]http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n359/Robinsucks/jersey.png[/IMG]

For those of us watching the webcast, it looks like all the pros have their player number stickered to the side of their hoppers. This is actually rather helpful with identifying players properly. This should help ensure spotters on the field get the right stats for the right players.

[kyotkyotkyot]

1. Kills = Home runs, not on base percentage.

2. "With your cooperation the PSP 2012 Pro Season statistics will add value to almost every paintball related conversation, from Internet fan debates, to contract discussions surrounding sponsorship."

[SpikeWesker]

MASSIVE FAIL.

not the idea nor the intention as a whole. i am all about objectivity, and following stats is were it's at.

the problem is the aproach.

i know what they are doing.
basically, positions in paintball means that some people will get more kills, while others have more supportive roles. and those roles sometimes involve getting yourself killed in order to give your team the better field positioning or eliminating a key player to begin the domino effect that is what matty marshall likes to refer to as "blood in the water".

this means that if you follow statistics, one player with a frontal position will have higher kill counts, but also higher death counts, very little time alive and sometimes he won't even make it past the first 4 seconds of the match. while other players in the back will have less kill counts, but will also have lower death counts and will stay alive more time.
i'm just mentioning 3 factors relatively easy to meassure.

but what does this mean?...
It means that only a fraction of all the factors that dictate a paintball player's performance are what you should be looking at, knowing first hand that this player is a front, a mid or a back player.
if he's a front, you may wanna have a look at the kill-death ratio, how many of them make their desired position off the break and not pay much attention to the time they spend alive
if he's a back you may wanna have a look at their average time alive and how many people they shoot in average per break, also how many times they assist another player into making a kill or a succesful move.

knowing all this, you see that not all players should have their stats looked at the same way. And that this should be the only fair way to look objectively at a plaintball player under controlled circumstances.

THE PROBLEM IS:
that paintball is chaos. WAAAAY more chaotic than most mainstream and highly statistic sports, such as football or basketball.
the main reasson is because there are many defining actions taking place simultaneously.

for example, on football (or soccer for you yanks) there is only one main center of attention, and all actions defining the outcome of a game take place mostly with the ball itself, or around the ball.

in paintball, each player shooting each paintball, or taking diving into a good position in the snake, or shouting important information across the field, is a basic defining moment. and all of these basic defining actions take place SIMULTANEOUSLY, in high numbers and at high speeds.

that means that regardless of how well you plan a move in advance (like in american football, a sport of limited defining actions in short intervals) or what positions and jobs you assign to your players (like in baseball, another sport of limited, highly repetitive and short action intervals), your players have to work out the victories out of experience, intelligence, improvisation and luck most of the times.

if anything the only thing you can really plan for in paintball is the break itself, and not even that goes just like planned 50% of the time.

5 seconds into a match, and players are starting to improvise and fill out spots they weren't primarily intended to play, taking responsabilities not really included in their job descriptions as back, mid and front players.

so, are players really limited within their job descriptions? the answer is no.

but then statistics become chaos too.
a player that gets little to no kills, but is excellent at coordinating info and pinching out rivals for his other teammates to eliminate is as valuable to me as the guy pulling the crazy runs on the snake and getting 2 key kills before getting shot himself.
and i believe that goes for all players somewhat experienced in the sport. the inner process upon wich we decide wheter a player is valuable or not involves a lot more comparisons, matching specialties, running mental simulations and observations. we know some factors such as communication, or even how well you understand eachother without even saying a word on the field, is as valuable as killer aim during breaks, or being able to sprint safely to S1.

the stats upon wich we would be measuring each player based on his "job" (front, mid and back) aren't really representative of the value of the player overall.
They would need truckloads of interpretation, and even then, most of the stats would still not apply realistically for future proyections on performance.

AND THERE IS ANOTHER BIG PROBLEM that just hit me today.
apparently, some (if not most) experienced players and coaches know and feel all that i've already mentioned.
there is a reasson the PSP defined quotas to fill on back, front and mid player definitions per roster.
Because the PSP knows they need to isolate and clasify people into "job" descriptions in order to gather and interpret data relevant to that player on said job description (otherwise their data influx is just too massive, chaotic and confusing to handle)
And because players in general probably won't want to be measured by time alive or number of assists, but by kill counts and flags hanged.
Because that's what common folk look up to. People follow the big scorers in football (again, soccer for you yanks), but who really follows the best assists?, who can really pinpoint the best defense players? do people even follow the goalie stats?...
Most people don't. Players and teams values are all about the GOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAALLLLL!!!!!.

i believe pro paintball players think the same will apply to their sport in some way.
Or maybe they just don't want to be segregated into defined jobs for the public, their fellow players, coaches and other sports people.

and that is maybe the reasson why Mike Paxson, Yosh Rau and Ryan Greenspan, amongst almost every other player whose basic stats were displayed during the webcasts, were described as Front players.

i believe everyone displayed, regardless of their iconic and defining status as what you and me would call back and mid players, was a front player.

did teams enroled and picked scapegoats on their rosters to sign as back and mid players to fill the quotas?

This isn't going to go as well as it should for the good intended efforts to objectivise the sport.

The aproach is the wrong one.

[kitbh]

The K/D and W/L thing has already been implemented a few years back. I remember watching a webcast where ollie and other pros were up at the booth and the announcers were reading out K/D, W/L, average penalties, points played etc to them. I want to say 2010? It was when philly was still around.

I'm not sure why they ever stopped. Good to see it come back because it was interesting to listen too. It also gave the announcers more to talk about and compare too.

Everyone plays differently. Some support, some kill, some finish. That a part of the game. SOME of the best mid/back players will get a lower amount of kills, but the guy in front of them will get a lot more kills and the mid/back player will just finish off the last guy. They even explained this on that webcast I watched a few years back.

On a side note... the front/mid/back label is kind of silly in my opinion, but I can kind of understand where they are trying to go so I'll play along.

[Nick Brockdorff]

Front players only get a high overall kill percentage in blowout matches.

If teams are at the same level (more or less), backs & mids get plenty of kills, and while a front might get a high kill count in one game, he is shot off the break in the next - so those stats tend to balance out over a match.

As for calling people fronts/backs, I agree those terms are out of date.

Fronts often start further back, but go the widest (for instance to the corner), because they have the best speed, so possibly, more relevant terms would be:

- Wideout (front)
- Shortstop (back)
- Insert (mid)

And yes, I know those first two terms mean something entirely different in football & baseball - but there is nothing wrong with using vocabulary from other sports in paintball, with a different meaning - actually, it might be an advantage

[Racso]

Originally Posted by SpikeWesker

MASSIVE FAIL.

not the idea nor the intention as a whole. i am all about objectivity, and following stats is were it's at.

the problem is the aproach.

i know what they are doing.
basically, positions in paintball means that some people will get more kills, while others have more supportive roles. and those roles sometimes involve getting yourself killed in order to give your team the better field positioning or eliminating a key player to begin the domino effect that is what matty marshall likes to refer to as "blood in the water".

this means that if you follow statistics, one player with a frontal position will have higher kill counts, but also higher death counts, very little time alive and sometimes he won't even make it past the first 4 seconds of the match. while other players in the back will have less kill counts, but will also have lower death counts and will stay alive more time.
i'm just mentioning 3 factors relatively easy to meassure.

but what does this mean?...
It means that only a fraction of all the factors that dictate a paintball player's performance are what you should be looking at, knowing first hand that this player is a front, a mid or a back player.
if he's a front, you may wanna have a look at the kill-death ratio, how many of them make their desired position off the break and not pay much attention to the time they spend alive
if he's a back you may wanna have a look at their average time alive and how many people they shoot in average per break, also how many times they assist another player into making a kill or a succesful move.

knowing all this, you see that not all players should have their stats looked at the same way. And that this should be the only fair way to look objectively at a plaintball player under controlled circumstances.

THE PROBLEM IS:
that paintball is chaos. WAAAAY more chaotic than most mainstream and highly statistic sports, such as football or basketball.
the main reasson is because there are many defining actions taking place simultaneously.

for example, on football (or soccer for you yanks) there is only one main center of attention, and all actions defining the outcome of a game take place mostly with the ball itself, or around the ball.

in paintball, each player shooting each paintball, or taking diving into a good position in the snake, or shouting important information across the field, is a basic defining moment. and all of these basic defining actions take place SIMULTANEOUSLY, in high numbers and at high speeds.

that means that regardless of how well you plan a move in advance (like in american football, a sport of limited defining actions in short intervals) or what positions and jobs you assign to your players (like in baseball, another sport of limited, highly repetitive and short action intervals), your players have to work out the victories out of experience, intelligence, improvisation and luck most of the times.

if anything the only thing you can really plan for in paintball is the break itself, and not even that goes just like planned 50% of the time.

5 seconds into a match, and players are starting to improvise and fill out spots they weren't primarily intended to play, taking responsabilities not really included in their job descriptions as back, mid and front players.

so, are players really limited within their job descriptions? the answer is no.

but then statistics become chaos too.
a player that gets little to no kills, but is excellent at coordinating info and pinching out rivals for his other teammates to eliminate is as valuable to me as the guy pulling the crazy runs on the snake and getting 2 key kills before getting shot himself.
and i believe that goes for all players somewhat experienced in the sport. the inner process upon wich we decide wheter a player is valuable or not involves a lot more comparisons, matching specialties, running mental simulations and observations. we know some factors such as communication, or even how well you understand eachother without even saying a word on the field, is as valuable as killer aim during breaks, or being able to sprint safely to S1.

the stats upon wich we would be measuring each player based on his "job" (front, mid and back) aren't really representative of the value of the player overall.
They would need truckloads of interpretation, and even then, most of the stats would still not apply realistically for future proyections on performance.

AND THERE IS ANOTHER BIG PROBLEM that just hit me today.
apparently, some (if not most) experienced players and coaches know and feel all that i've already mentioned.
there is a reasson the PSP defined quotas to fill on back, front and mid player definitions per roster.
Because the PSP knows they need to isolate and clasify people into "job" descriptions in order to gather and interpret data relevant to that player on said job description (otherwise their data influx is just too massive, chaotic and confusing to handle)
And because players in general probably won't want to be measured by time alive or number of assists, but by kill counts and flags hanged.
Because that's what common folk look up to. People follow the big scorers in football (again, soccer for you yanks), but who really follows the best assists?, who can really pinpoint the best defense players? do people even follow the goalie stats?...
Most people don't. Players and teams values are all about the GOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAALLLLL!!!!!.

i believe pro paintball players think the same will apply to their sport in some way.
Or maybe they just don't want to be segregated into defined jobs for the public, their fellow players, coaches and other sports people.

and that is maybe the reasson why Mike Paxson, Yosh Rau and Ryan Greenspan, amongst almost every other player whose basic stats were displayed during the webcasts, were described as Front players.

i believe everyone displayed, regardless of their iconic and defining status as what you and me would call back and mid players, was a front player.

did teams enroled and picked scapegoats on their rosters to sign as back and mid players to fill the quotas?

This isn't going to go as well as it should for the good intended efforts to objectivise the sport.

The aproach is the wrong one.

You're missing a massively huge point: all sports are like that:

Baseball: Shortstop and second base players get way more defensive highlights on average than any other player.

American Football: Quarterbacks, running backs, wide receivers, these are the most common offensive highlights, and these are the big scorers. But a quarterback can't do his job unless he has an good offensive line. A running back can't do his job unless certain blocks are made. A wide receiver can't do his job unless there are other receivers to block or act as decoys.

Soccer and Hockey: First let me start out by saying out of all the mainstream sports, I know the least about these, but with that said, don't you just know the big scorers? There are defensive players that may very rarely get a goal, but are great in what they do.

Basketball: Similar to soccer and hockey, you get players who's main objective isn't to score, but are assists and defense.

Yes, with a stat system, there are going to be players who have MUCH better stats than others because of their position. In American football, a tight end is a position that regularly scores, but it is VERY rare for them to have scoring stats similar to a running back or receiver. In baseball, teams don't care how many home runs a pitcher has.

Paintball isn't as chaotic as you think. When a player shoots his gun, there is a 14 to 16 inch indicator of where he is aiming. Sure, off the break it may be hard to determine who shot who to some degree, but not to the extent of not being able to narrow it down. On a 5 man, even if all 5 guys are laning off the break, I'd be willing to bet that they're aiming in at least 3 different directions, meaning it wouldn't be hard to give a 1/2 eliminate to the 2 players who could have shot someone.

This is also a reason for assists. If player A is holding a guy down in a bunker, and player B makes the kill, then player A could get an assist.

As for position assignment vs actual played position, this could get a little hairy, but there is still somewhat of a formula to it. Sure, a "back" player could take the snake off the break, but for the most part, players are going to play their positions.

But to make the argument that this system is a failure because some are going to have better stats than others is just not reasonable. If it were, then american football offense would be 1 quarterback and 10 receivers.

[DerK1]

keeping stats on players would be a sick idea. im excited to see some numbers related to teams and players

[steve_81]

Originally Posted by paintball_junkie187

Why must we continue to alter OUR game in order to make it appealing to the outside world that has CHOSEN not to care ?? In 2003/2004 it was stated that getting paintball on tv was a necessity and doing so would thrust the game into the limelight. And where are we ? "Using" stats in this manner is like telling me that if Madison builds a giant sports stadium, a pro team will move in to fill it. But it's not that easy. We can't continually put the cart before the horse and assume success. The focus needs to stay on today's customers (players).

Paintball Junkie you are probably the smartest person in this thread. Sadly, it is a losing battle for you and I my friend as you can't argue with stupid.

[surealpaintballer]

i think this is a great start, however i fear the soon know it all personalities that read a spreadsheet and think he knows everything, aka every nfl fan i have encountered in the last 2 years.

however if that makes the media for paintball more entertaining and there for more lucrative.....i guess i will just have to put up with it.

[[Angel][SCF]]

Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER

What if each team player was given different colors of paint to shoot? Then refs would know who the hit came from just by noting down the color.

Sounds like a 6 year old's solution to this problem. especially when there's issues with restricted colors for jerseys/equipment and makes reffing much more difficult. Technology is definitely the way to go on this. some combo of tilt sensor's, internal compass, GPS, RoF-FI type chip and maybe some official review from the box or something when the system isn't clear.

Originally Posted by Neon Lime

This thread is making me want to punch a wall. What is with everyone and this whole "kills" thing? It's called eliminations, stop making paintball sound like Call of Duty. People don't DIE in paintball.

I die all the time playing call of duty. the financial burden of holding multiple daily funerals is really starting to hurt my family. And if you haven't noticed, Call of Duty is insanely more popular than paintball. just looking at the top 10 video game sales of last year, it's clear that simulated violence is not a turn off for the mainstream population right now.

I also want to point out that when something goes mainstream, the die hard core of fans usually isn't too pleased with the direction it goes in. be careful what you wish for cuz before you know it there might be something that's forced on us simply because it appeals to the masses and makes money. change and growth are good things, but they need to be watched carefully and checked otherwise this sport could be ripped from our hands.

[ghost93]

Originally Posted by Neon Lime

This thread is making me want to punch a wall. What is with everyone and this whole "kills" thing? It's called eliminations, stop making paintball sound like Call of Duty. People don't DIE in paintball.

And people don't literally run home in baseball either.

[jgill07]

Originally Posted by mattyho

Paintball Sports Promotions is Changing the Face of Competitive Paintball

This year, Paintball Sports Promotions is excited to announce that in addition to our premier format, exceptional referees, and unrivaled Webcast we will be the first National Series to document all Pro Player/Team statistics during the full 2012 season.

As Pro Players/Teams, you will notice new faces, new equipment, and new requirements to ensure that all of your efforts on the field translate to proper data collection and recognition. We want to make sure that every Pro player receives the opportunity to showcase their individual dedication to this sport and their commitment to their team. With these new statistical data elements, we are moving away from the subjective and toward new and necessary objective measures of skill and talent. Who really and truly are the best players in the sport? We are about to find out.

Paintball Sports Promotions understands that the collection and distribution of Player/Team statistics will be the next evolution to legitimize the Professional aspect of our sport. We thank you in advance for your understanding and cooperation to help us achieve what we believe to be a monumental shift in the historic timeline of paintball.

Have any stats been processed for the partial Galveston tournament? If so, where can we find them? If they wont be up until the tournament is complete, where will we be able to access them?

Also, is there any feedback on whether the chips worked accurately re: assessing credit for eliminations, etc. or whether there was difficulty in making determinations in off the break/multiple shooter/trade-out situations?

[SpikeWesker]

Originally Posted by Racso

You're missing a massively huge point: all sports are like that:

Baseball: Shortstop and second base players get way more defensive highlights on average than any other player.

American Football: Quarterbacks, running backs, wide receivers, these are the most common offensive highlights, and these are the big scorers. But a quarterback can't do his job unless he has an good offensive line. A running back can't do his job unless certain blocks are made. A wide receiver can't do his job unless there are other receivers to block or act as decoys.

Soccer and Hockey: First let me start out by saying out of all the mainstream sports, I know the least about these, but with that said, don't you just know the big scorers? There are defensive players that may very rarely get a goal, but are great in what they do.

Basketball: Similar to soccer and hockey, you get players who's main objective isn't to score, but are assists and defense.

Yes, with a stat system, there are going to be players who have MUCH better stats than others because of their position. In American football, a tight end is a position that regularly scores, but it is VERY rare for them to have scoring stats similar to a running back or receiver. In baseball, teams don't care how many home runs a pitcher has.

Paintball isn't as chaotic as you think. When a player shoots his gun, there is a 14 to 16 inch indicator of where he is aiming. Sure, off the break it may be hard to determine who shot who to some degree, but not to the extent of not being able to narrow it down. On a 5 man, even if all 5 guys are laning off the break, I'd be willing to bet that they're aiming in at least 3 different directions, meaning it wouldn't be hard to give a 1/2 eliminate to the 2 players who could have shot someone.

This is also a reason for assists. If player A is holding a guy down in a bunker, and player B makes the kill, then player A could get an assist.

As for position assignment vs actual played position, this could get a little hairy, but there is still somewhat of a formula to it. Sure, a "back" player could take the snake off the break, but for the most part, players are going to play their positions.

But to make the argument that this system is a failure because some are going to have better stats than others is just not reasonable. If it were, then american football offense would be 1 quarterback and 10 receivers.

i know where your line of thought comes from.

i'm not saying the efforts and intentions are fail, but the aproach is definetly FUBAR from the moment mike paxson became a front player in the stats.
that thing is the main and more obvious symptom, and whay tried to explain are the probable underlying causes for it.

baseball and american football are very repetitive and controlled action sports.
the intervals of action are very short, and altough all players get to do something, the defyning individuals for each sport are but 2 or 3.

i'm not an american football fan for other than watching important games every now and then, but i know that for each play (interval of action), there is a quarterback, a possible receiver, and some guy that takles someone. sometimes there are only one quarterback and a tackler, sometimes someone just gets penalized for being a douche.

compared to rugby (pass after pass after tackle after pile up after pass...) football has very little chaos involved for there are way less defyning interactions in it.

i don't watch baseball at all, because it is bloody booring and tedious to do so. most of the time it's just some guy throwing a ball and some other dude swinging a bat. like a third of the times there is a third person involved in catching a falling ball, and some other guy passing it along, while people run s fast as they can in predefined directions.

in paintball, it is as if each player had the winning ball with them the whole game (because they do). and everything he or she does or does not alters the game to a point it becomes statistically relevant even when they die off the break.
and by my empirical experience, it seems like more often paintball players have to improvise and/or play outside of their predetermined jobs per match, than most other athletes do in their respective sports.

what i feel should be the right(ish) way to take on stats for paintball is to take as a whole many factors (instead of isolating them and analizing them without context) and provide a general idea instead of a bunch of many numbers for factors not representative at all by themselves or even if you group them with others.

what did i just say?
that maybe stats on team performance are more relevant, representative and apply/count better than individual and micro statistics on players.
like:
live players per break (for each team)
kills per break (for each team)
average point time (for each team)
average runners per break
average shooters per break
average hybrids (shooting and running) ber preak
points played
points won
average of players alive per each flag hanged.

etc etc

and for individual players we should only be taking into account stats that relate to the individuals performance alone.
and it's the statitians', analists' and general people's job to assign a determined "position" or "style of play" to each player based on what said player stats say, and not assigning this definition before before collecting data.

K/D ratio should be applied to each player.
average times shooting still per break:
average times shooting-running per break:
average times alive per point.
(if you read these 4 stats together, one can easily pinpoint what a player's general job normally is, and how good he is at it)
Stats on penalties should be a MUST though, for individual players.
and so on.

My general idea is to remove any and all stats that may create bias on the individual player's performance, in order to get better stats and therefore more value themselves.
because in paintball is OK to trade out your body, if your team benefits from it. it's also OK to die quickly, if this benefits your team.
it is OK to kill no one, if you help mantain your team on the drivers seat of the point.
it's ok to kill no one on a break, if you made it to your desired position on the field.
etc etc.

if history and empirical experience tells you "X" player is more than anything back player and basically helped define the position himself, but player X wants to have his stats collected and read as if he was a front player, you know your whole system is creating a massive bias on the very data source, and will give you unrepresentative conclussions.

[caboose1577]

These are some pretty good ideas

[txfordct]

where will the stats be posted?

[d0cwh0]

Originally Posted by txfordct

where will the stats be posted?

that's what I want to know