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Old 04-05-2012, 06:41 PM #274
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:41 PM #275
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List the reasons! That's all I have been asking for.

That and what you define as par for coaches.

I am not saying the woman would be better, but she would not be chosen first. A player who has played at a higher level brings an “awe” factor (you know it is true). This sadly happened at my club Jets (now B.U.S.A) as a lady who had not played in college, but had coached for years was replaced by a just graduated player from a local D1 school.

Clubs from my experience want coaches who bring in a swagger in which players and parents feed off of. A truly good coach in a perfect world would grow up around soccer and have some experience, but most of all focus on development rather than results. If you want anything more let me know I am confused on what more you want.
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Old 04-06-2012, 01:09 AM #276
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You said coaches in the US are subpar, but didn't list any reasons why beyond that they look for the most athletic kids, which frankly all coaches around the world do. You didn't mention tactics, play style, what they do in training, how the break games down, etc.

You also didn't mention what par is. Is it England? Is it Spain? Is it Japan? Are we not better than some countries? Why aren't we?


You just supported my point about marquee names. **** the better coach if we can get some swagger right? Again, that supports my point that there are PLENTY of phenomenal coaches not involved in the academy system. I have been extremely blessed to have been given a chance by some great guys who recognized that I can teach the game despite having never played the game at a high level, not everyone is so lucky.
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Old 04-06-2012, 08:08 AM #277
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You said coaches in the US are subpar, but didn't list any reasons why beyond that they look for the most athletic kids, which frankly all coaches around the world do. You didn't mention tactics, play style, what they do in training, how the break games down, etc.

You also didn't mention what par is. Is it England? Is it Spain? Is it Japan? Are we not better than some countries? Why aren't we?


You just supported my point about marquee names. **** the better coach if we can get some swagger right? Again, that supports my point that there are PLENTY of phenomenal coaches not involved in the academy system. I have been extremely blessed to have been given a chance by some great guys who recognized that I can teach the game despite having never played the game at a high level, not everyone is so lucky.
I never said the pro player should get the job.... Those politics are absolute **** and ruin soccer for me. The overall understanding of the game in the U.S is blah. Coaches may know how to make someone make a run or even hit a ball a certain way, but rarely teach someone the flow of the game.

To say what "par" is we will use international football. The U.S just got rid of Bradley and honestly we are playing better now. Klinsmann is doing an astounding job of finding new blood and well simply show casing some talents. In my opinion we are behind some other power house countries simply because it isn't in our blood like it is theirs. Go to England and any open field has at least 5 to 10 people playing, but not here in the U.S. This lack of a following (which is now changing) has made soccer become a back burner sport.

Coaches who coach this sport in general, with few exceptions, don't study soccer. This sport is like anything else; research and practice are needed for success.
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Old 04-06-2012, 09:52 AM #278
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Not picking sides on this argument but I've noticed in my area a lot of young kids deemed as great have great individual skills but can't play on a team to save themselves. My sister has played on a few teams and all her coaches look for the fastest player and make them the striker regardless of if they can shoot or finish. She never got better with any of her coaches but more so messing around in our backyard with me. Kinda sad but then again american mentality towards sports is a lot different than the rest of the world.
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Old 04-06-2012, 02:20 PM #279
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Old 04-06-2012, 02:33 PM #280
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I never said the pro player should get the job.... Those politics are absolute **** and ruin soccer for me. The overall understanding of the game in the U.S is blah. Coaches may know how to make someone make a run or even hit a ball a certain way, but rarely teach someone the flow of the game.

To say what "par" is we will use international football. The U.S just got rid of Bradley and honestly we are playing better now. Klinsmann is doing an astounding job of finding new blood and well simply show casing some talents. In my opinion we are behind some other power house countries simply because it isn't in our blood like it is theirs. Go to England and any open field has at least 5 to 10 people playing, but not here in the U.S. This lack of a following (which is now changing) has made soccer become a back burner sport.

Coaches who coach this sport in general, with few exceptions, don't study soccer. This sport is like anything else; research and practice are needed for success.
There we go. So it boils down to tactics and flow of the game. I can appreciate that.

But I bring to light pay to play again and have to ask, is it a question of subpar coaches or a subpar youth system that is the true problem? I know in high school I have the luxury of coaching my players in playing an attractive style. Some others don't and are evaluated by ADs who just want to see wins, so they are forced to play direct since it is the highest reward for the lowest risk.

Mirror that situation for club and college and you can see how it becomes almost a self-perpetuating situation.

Also, I have been to and seen lots of internationals run sessions. We are behind in the US in terms of what we can teach to the kids because our soccer IQ as a country is low, but we are not so much behind in what we are teaching.

Your Bradley example is great. The guy got wins, people were happy with him because he got wins, but those true fans with good soccer IQs criticized him because he played a direct style. In the US it is hard to grasp that playing with style is more important than winning because that is not the American mentality.
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Old 04-06-2012, 05:48 PM #281
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In the US it is hard to grasp that playing with style is more important than winning because that is not the American mentality.
I disagree with this to a degree. Playing with style at the senior level is NOT more important than winning. I agree that kids need to learn to play the game, not to win with Route 1 kick ball, and that too much emphasis is placed on wins and losses at the youth levels. However, at some point we must have results. There are no style points at the World Cup, the Olympics, or other similar level competitions.

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Old 04-06-2012, 05:53 PM #282
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^Agreed.
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Old 04-06-2012, 06:18 PM #283
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I have to say I would rather watch the U.S lose playing a flowing game rather than them winning with a kickball style of play....
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Old 04-06-2012, 09:53 PM #284
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I disagree with this to a degree. Playing with style at the senior level is NOT more important than winning. I agree that kids need to learn to play the game, not to win with Route 1 kick ball, and that too much emphasis is placed on wins and losses at the youth levels. However, at some point we must have results. There are no style points at the World Cup, the Olympics, or other similar level competitions.

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Was Spain always successful? Barcelona? It is a process that has to be accepted across the board, win, lose, or tie.

I would rather watch a team play to its own strengths rather than play relying solely off the other team's weakness.

For example, looking at Spain, they essentially play like Barcelona. Clubs and youth across the country will train to play like the national team.
Brazil plays a similar high tempo, free flowing game. Clubs and youth across the country will train to play like their national team.
The US played boomball under Bradley. We beat Spain. Does that mean that since the US national team got results that we should train our kids to play that way?
Hell even the Women's National team plays boomball and they are by far one of the top 3 teams in the world. They don't need to play direct, but they do for the results. Does that mean our kids should as well?

I get what you are saying completely. But unless we are willing to slog through the mud to get to a point where we produce players who can play pretty soccer, then we will keep doing what we are doing which is having no unified "voice" in terms of style of play further causing chaos in our highest level teams.

I think Klinsmann is doing it right. I think Caleb Porter has an idea, even though he made some crucial errors he tried to get our guys to play. But these guys are not winning as much. Does that mean we abandon them and go back to playing direct and grinding out a result here or there?
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:40 PM #285
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Spain and Barca are successful because of how disgustingly deep they are in midfield and in offense.....when you have those weapons you can stick to your game all the time. A team should be versatile. Chelsea had no chance against Barca back in 09 playing a regularly 4-3-3 so we turtled and played off the counter. Being able to Adjust your strategy accordingly but still maintaining one consistent style is what it's about..imo.
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:49 PM #286
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A style is something that should never be changed, but it happens as people face the big clubs. The sad thing is I have only seen on one occasion a team actually run at Barca and they nearly **** themselves.
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:38 AM #287
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Spain and Barca are successful because of how disgustingly deep they are in midfield and in offense.....when you have those weapons you can stick to your game all the time. A team should be versatile. Chelsea had no chance against Barca back in 09 playing a regularly 4-3-3 so we turtled and played off the counter. Being able to Adjust your strategy accordingly but still maintaining one consistent style is what it's about..imo.
False, Chelsea had 4-5 good legitimate penalty shouts.
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:55 AM #288
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Spain and Barca are successful because of how disgustingly deep they are in midfield and in offense.....when you have those weapons you can stick to your game all the time. A team should be versatile. Chelsea had no chance against Barca back in 09 playing a regularly 4-3-3 so we turtled and played off the counter. Being able to Adjust your strategy accordingly but still maintaining one consistent style is what it's about..imo.
With the exception of this season, Barcelona B has been in the top of the segunda division for the past few seasons. They play the exact same style as the first team. The youth squads in La Masia train to play the exact same style as the first team. By nature, they are going to produce and develop players that fit into the system.

My question is before Barcelona became so dominant, how were they? They were always good, but not THAT good.


And you bring up a very valid point, being able to adjust play styles is crucial. Can we agree though that the US had one style under Bradley which was to park the bus and play off the counter? That style is easy since it is defensive in nature. Defending is far easier than attacking. What happened when we played teams that parked the bus?

I think the point I am trying to get at is that sure, winning is important, but is anyone really talking about how the US beat Spain still? Or how Inter beat Barcelona? Having a style of play that isn't reliant on the other team making mistakes is an inconsistent way to go about grinding out results.
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:14 PM #289
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I agree...Spains got it right. Barca has the same system going down to the youth level and you're seeing the same with Germany now too. But who is going to step in with the proper vision and make that happen here?
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:41 PM #290
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So how about chelsea...Ivanovic was only 2 yards offsides on that goal lol
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Old 04-07-2012, 01:38 PM #291
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Old 04-07-2012, 11:10 PM #292
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I agree...Spains got it right. Barca has the same system going down to the youth level and you're seeing the same with Germany now too. But who is going to step in with the proper vision and make that happen here?
Klinsmann and Tab Ramos want to, but the pay to play system is very, very ingrained into our culture and there are lots of egos involved. Not to mention that the MLS is not helping any matters with the one table system.
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Old 04-08-2012, 01:01 AM #293
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Was Spain always successful? Barcelona? It is a process that has to be accepted across the board, win, lose, or tie.

I would rather watch a team play to its own strengths rather than play relying solely off the other team's weakness.

For example, looking at Spain, they essentially play like Barcelona. Clubs and youth across the country will train to play like the national team.
Brazil plays a similar high tempo, free flowing game. Clubs and youth across the country will train to play like their national team.
The US played boomball under Bradley. We beat Spain. Does that mean that since the US national team got results that we should train our kids to play that way?
I think you misunderstood my point. I was advocating that we play in a manner that maximizes our chances to win, not necessarily kick ball. I don't think we really have forwards good enough to beat world class defenders one-on-one on a consistent enough basis to achieve results.

Spain and Barcelona have the horses to play as they do. The US does not. Granted, some of our players are developing, but we may not have enough players of that caliber or with that kind of skill to play the way Spain or Brazil do even by the next generation. What we do have but do not utilize are enough players with enough talent to play higher pressure defense rather than letting the other team's players receive the ball under no pressure and then move to defend them. We have players who can play physically. It won't be pretty, it isn't what Euros or South Americans would call style, but we can play that way successfully.

I watched the the WNT tie Japan. Our ladies let the Japanese receive the ball consistently with little to no pressure for most of the game, and the Japanese passed around our gals. It was painful and embarrassing. The few times we put the Japanese under pressure early, they made mistakes. When we played physically on offense, we were much more successful. That was one of the things we could do well and that the Japanese could not counter, but our gals tried to play a more pretty style most of the game and wound up with a tie.

I personally don't see our system developing a generational crop of players like Spain or Germany has now any time soon, especially with soccer competing with much better paying football and basketball for talent. I don't think we have a big enough hammer to make that square peg fit into a round hole, so we need to go with what we can. If we happen to luck into a golden generation like Spain has now, it isn't that difficult to give players of that caliber a system like Spain has.

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Old 04-08-2012, 03:56 PM #294
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I think you missed my point too haha. I am saying that Spain and Barcelona were not always this good. It took years of training and developing players to fit that style of play to get where they are now. Years where they were not winning nearly as much, but now look at their quality. They win games consistently due to the nature of their play. Their style of play also happens to be extremely pleasing to watch. High pressure direct play is just too inconsistent. Sure you may get wins, but replicating those wins is the hard part since you are relying on the other team to make a mistake.

I would much rather see us adopt that style so that when our golden generation does come around, we will have a chance. Instead, relying on those special talents to be the catalyst to revamp our playstyle might just be too big of an ask.

US WNT has NO excuse to play boomball. Whenever Wambach is in, we play boomball. It is an issue of clinging to the past versus moving on with the future via players like Sydney Leroux, Alex Morgan, ARod, Casey Nogueira, etc.
I am glad you brought them up as an example of what is wrong with soccer in our country. We have the women to play a technical, expansive, free flowing style of pretty soccer. Instead we kick the ball long to Abby Wambach and let her run over people. I remember during the Women's World Cup I asked a huge WNT fan what he thought of her, and he responded with one word, "Clutch." For me that highlights what is wrong with our team. We play a style that fits around Abby instead of the team as a whole. It is just too inconsistent of a style when compared to one that is possession based.
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