[the incubus]

Nope, no affiliation with Critical.

I'v been a design and production professional for almost 20 years now and have worked with clients the likes of the Miami HEAT, Ryder, Sony, Bob Long, NASCAR, Homestead Motorsports Complex, Al Unser Jr., Alonso Mourning Charities, the Edgerrin James Foundation, the NFL, Miami Dolphins and their always rebranded stadium Stadium and many, MANY more.

My critique on this is from a professional standpoint, which has ruined me as an every day consumer in the sense that I tend to look at the thought behind the designing of products and sometimes use it as a benchmark to gauge product quality based on the initial perception.

I personally don't care for Critical's products but they do make few quality products.

[6shot]

That is impressive. Since you and Hodge take high command on this one I'll say: Yes, Masters!

Although I'm working hard to develop my own client portfolio. So watch out!


All in good fun! Poor Critical.

[Shockwave]

Originally Posted by the incubus

My critique on this is from a professional standpoint, which has ruined me as an every day consumer in the sense that I tend to look at the thought behind the designing of products and sometimes use it as a benchmark to gauge product quality based on the initial perception.

This coming from a guy whose POWER logo is a power button? Comon man. Just say you don't like the logo, you're entitled to your opinion, but don't throw out "trust me, I'm a professional" along with some font terms like kerning - which we know all the 10 year olds on here have no idea what it actually means.

[the incubus]

Originally Posted by Shockwave

This coming from a guy whose POWER logo is a power button? Comon man. Just say you don't like the logo, you're entitled to your opinion, but don't throw out "trust me, I'm a professional" along with some font terms like kerning - which we know all the 10 year olds on here have no idea what it actually means.

And your point is?

What you just said is 100% meaningless and has nothing to do with the things I pointed out on Critical's Pro-Team logo. It was an innocent statement on my part that even says I'm sometimes too critical of things.

It's your opinion and not every logo is for everyone but what I stated are indeed facts that influence my evaluation of the artwork. That's it... no more, no less.

I chose my icon based on the history of the symbol and how it came to be because it appealed to me. Furthermore, my logo IS NOT the power icon alone but the entire thing as a whole. Looking at my logo technically it is sound and well balanced regardless of how you feel about it. I mean Hybrid paintball's logo was an H for crying outloud but it looked pretty fantastic on all their products. Are we to say Really Hybrid??!!?!?... An H?... REALLY???!?!?!???

No, it's what they liked and they developed and perfected the living daylights out of it and created one of the best and strongest brands the industry has ever seen, plain ole "H" and all. It was such a sound design that 5 years after they closed their doors almost everyone in the sport still recognizes their products from the corner of their eye.

I'm not sure how or why my post struck a nerve with you but that's your business. I was merely exercising my right to post an opinion and gave perfectly sound and valid reasons explaining why without attacking anyone.

[Shockwave]

Originally Posted by the incubus

It's your opinion and not every logo is for everyone but what I stated are indeed facts that influence my evaluation of the artwork. That's it... no more, no less.

I'm not sure how or why my post struck a nerve with you but that's your business. I was merely exercising my right to post an opinion and gave perfectly sound and valid reasons explaining why without attacking anyone.

There's so much to deal with here - I'm going to focus on the above for now, we can talk about your logo - or lack thereof at a later point.

You contradict yourself here, first you say you are stating "indeed facts", then you say you are "exercising my right to post an opinion". Which is it? Are you stating facts based upon your professional experience with your long list of design and production experience or are you stating opinions?

You mention earlier, not attacking of course, that your main issues with the critical logo are

Originally Posted by the incubus

Critical's logo has been hideous from day one. It's a terrible font in every aspect. Legibility is not very good, there is no uniformity, the kerning is off and all around it isn't pleasing to the eye... branded themselves well with the hideous logo.

You state that you weren't attacking anyone, but using completely non-constructive words such as hideous (2x), and terrible would be considered an attack by most of the thinking population.

The nerve that was struck by you is that you present yourself as an authority, shouting down your "professional commandments" from your Mt. Sinai. Even going so far as to provide a partial client list in an attempt to impress, intimidate, and sway others.

The fact is that you are looking at the logo and trying to critique it as a font set. You discuss kerning and uniformity, which are important when creating an entire font set. If we are using this criteria, then yes, it is horrible.

However, it is a logo and isn't meant to be "read" in a traditional sense. Think of the FexEx logo. The kerning isn't ideal for a font set, but the logo is fantastic. It is meant to be recognizable at a glimpse, which the circle C and word logo definitely do. Yes, the first time that someone may see it, they may have to think a bit, but like Hybrid's "H", it does get ingrained in their mind for instant recognition in the future. Also, saying "it isn't pleasing to the eye" - which is apparently a fact according to you - doesn't go far to explain the amount of Critical stickers I see being sported by players all over the place by people that don't even necessarily own Critical gear. If the logo is so unpleasing to the eye, then those stickers would end up in the trash instead of on guns, hoppers, and gear.

Without a gazillion dollars to design a logo on par with FedEx, Ford, or Coke, in my opinion, and the vast majority of others, Critical did just fine without having to be considered "hideous" or "terrible". This isn't mentioning the blatant stealing of font/logo style by established paintball companies such as Dye (Thor/Lexus). Critical came up with a decent, original, and recognizable logo, something that isn't easy to do by a small company.

[the incubus]

Originally Posted by Shockwave

There's so much to deal with here - I'm going to focus on the above for now, we can talk about your logo - or lack thereof at a later point.

You contradict yourself here, first you say you are stating "indeed facts", then you say you are "exercising my right to post an opinion". Which is it? Are you stating facts based upon your professional experience with your long list of design and production experience or are you stating opinions?

You mention earlier, not attacking of course, that your main issues with the critical logo are


You state that you weren't attacking anyone, but using completely non-constructive words such as hideous (2x), and terrible would be considered an attack by most of the thinking population.

The nerve that was struck by you is that you present yourself as an authority, shouting down your "professional commandments" from your Mt. Sinai. Even going so far as to provide a partial client list in an attempt to impress, intimidate, and sway others.

The fact is that you are looking at the logo and trying to critique it as a font set. You discuss kerning and uniformity, which are important when creating an entire font set. If we are using this criteria, then yes, it is horrible.

However, it is a logo and isn't meant to be "read" in a traditional sense. Think of the FexEx logo. The kerning isn't ideal for a font set, but the logo is fantastic. It is meant to be recognizable at a glimpse, which the circle C and word logo definitely do. Yes, the first time that someone may see it, they may have to think a bit, but like Hybrid's "H", it does get ingrained in their mind for instant recognition in the future. Also, saying "it isn't pleasing to the eye" - which is apparently a fact according to you - doesn't go far to explain the amount of Critical stickers I see being sported by players all over the place by people that don't even necessarily own Critical gear. If the logo is so unpleasing to the eye, then those stickers would end up in the trash instead of on guns, hoppers, and gear.

Without a gazillion dollars to design a logo on par with FedEx, Ford, or Coke, in my opinion, and the vast majority of others, Critical did just fine without having to be considered "hideous" or "terrible". This isn't mentioning the blatant stealing of font/logo style by established paintball companies such as Dye (Thor/Lexus). Critical came up with a decent, original, and recognizable logo, something that isn't easy to do by a small company.

Wow... so much insanity I almost don't know where to begin but here goes...

I most certainly DO have a logo. The fact that you think or imagine I don't have a logo says how little you know about the subject matter. Having said that, maybe you miss the essence of what I am trying to communicate to you.

If you look at Critical's logo it looks like ANYONE could have designed it because there are so many little things a professional designer would have done differently. by now I'm sure everyone has seen logos that look like they were done in word by someone on their home computer.

As for people rocking their stickers on their gear... Sometimes people like a company and their products and they like to support that company. Here in South Florida I've seen maybe a handful of markers and gear with Critical stickers. Point being, that has nothing to do with the logo itself.


Fact is that there are different strokes for different folks. As with the original Ripper Logo it was OK and didn't look bad, but it could use improvement and Jim asked me if I could do something different for him that looked more aggressive and looked cool, and I told him I would love to do it. However, after a couple of days of playing with different elements and attempting different directions with his existing idea, I was a bit stumped. From theire I met with my Boss (who IS one of the greatest designers/artists in the world) to let him know what all was going on and what I was trying to do for Jim. He asked me to show him the original and then what I had in mind and to show him the new elements I was tinkering with. What he saw almost immediately was that 3 of my elements could work in unison to create a singular element and it finally hit me!

I went straight home to work on it and in a couple of hours it was done.

Here's the Original:


Here is the new one that was sadly never implemented on anything since he left paintball altogether:


It might not be your cup of tea but it is technically superior and most importantly, Jim loved it.



To further clarify my argument, below is a PERFECT example of my critique of Critical's logo and that money has NOTHING to do with the quality of a design. The logo on the left is the official Logo of the Washington Wizards which is HIDEOUS regardless of how many Gilbert Arenas Jerseys and Wizards products are sold, and on the right is another designers design of the Wizards Logo. If you argue that the one on the left is even remotely good in any way shape or form you suffer from some sort of mental disability and I apologize for obviously giving you far too much to think about.



Anyone can do something along the lines of the original logo on the left, but the one on the right was clearly designed by someone who knows a bit about design.

My biggest issue with my profession is that regardless of how well studied or well qualified you are, it's difficult to find someone to hire you and entrust their project to you because they know you know better than they do. It's no different than going to a Doctor and telling him how to treat your ailment or hiring an attorney and telling them how to argue your case.

People hire professionals to do what they do but when it comes to design, everyone has a degree.

[Shockwave]

Originally Posted by the incubus

As for people rocking their stickers on their gear... Sometimes people like a company and their products and they like to support that company. Here in South Florida I've seen maybe a handful of markers and gear with Critical stickers. Point being, that has nothing to do with the logo itself.

Aside from the paragraph above, you did not address any of the points I made in my previous post. Instead, you flexed some more of your "professional muscle", posting up more of your resume for us to fawn over.

As far as people and their gear - South Florida is as nearly as far away from So Cal as you can get, so seeing a handful of Critical stickers out there is pretty impressive. Go to any field closer to Critical's epicenter, and you'll,l see a ton more. Also, let's not lie to ourselves, the paintball community is full of fashionably "agg" individuals that would rather die a thousand deaths than sport an ugly piece of clothing, sticker, gear, or swag. It has a ton to do with the logo.

As for the rest of your post - like I mentioned, I think we should not discuss your "logo" at this time, as it would probably incite at least 10 more examples of your prestigious clients, as well as several more designer anecdotes of how the average person has no design taste.

In case my post was unclear, let me summarize the main points so you may be able to respond.
1 - You claim your response was processional fact, then claim it was opinion, which is it?
2 - You claim you were not attacking at all, but used verbiage such as hideous, and terrible. How can that not be construed as an attack?
3 - Kerning and uniformity, while important as part of a font set, is not as important with logos.
4 - The Critical logo despite not being the easiest logo to read from a design perspective, has proven to be instantly recognizable without "reading", as well as proven to be associated directly with the brand. What else can be asked of a small company (with just a few less dollars than the Wizards)?

I don't think that any of the above points constitute "so much insanity", and are worth addressing. I am interested in further discussion on your other points, but would am interested in what you think about the above.

Thanks.

[Zippin35]

you two should each post a design for critical, post it up in a poll. winner stays!!

[Shockwave]

Originally Posted by Zippin35

you two should each post a design for critical, post it up in a poll. winner stays!!

Not discussing or questioning who is the better designer (I am not a designer).

[Superstar17]

Originally Posted by Zippin35

you two should each post a design for critical, post it up in a poll. winner stays!!

Lol

[the incubus]

Originally Posted by Shockwave

In case my post was unclear, let me summarize the main points so you may be able to respond.

1 - You claim your response was processional fact, then claim it was opinion, which is it?

It is ultimately an opinion BASED on HARD FACTS because different things appeal to different people. But don't kid yourself... the issues I pointed out are spot on.

Originally Posted by Shockwave

2 - You claim you were not attacking at all, but used verbiage such as hideous, and terrible. How can that not be construed as an attack?

Hideous and Terrible are words that describe how I feel about something. Put a ham down your pant leg and lock yourself in a cage with lions and tigers. THAT'S an attack. LOL

Originally Posted by Shockwave

3 - Kerning and uniformity, while important as part of a font set, is not as important with logos.

You couldn't be more wrong.Any design firm interviewing people to fill a design position would compare ALL their work including their logos and they would notice if one is more technically sound, right down to their Leading & Kerning (within body copy, Headlines as well as in Logos) because that is telling about an individual's attention to detail. So, Sorry... It is important. In fact, VERY Important!

Originally Posted by Shockwave

4 - The Critical logo despite not being the easiest logo to read from a design perspective, has proven to be instantly recognizable without "reading", as well as proven to be associated directly with the brand. What else can be asked of a small company (with just a few less dollars than the Wizards)?

Again, just because something is recognizable doesn't mean it's aesthetically pleasing or good looking. Ugly things have proven to hold strong brand recognition and do well. Take Carrot Top for instance... an Odd and Ugly, yet hilarious and witty dork who is easily recognizable to anyone and now after his insane steroid mania has an amazing physique but is still not very attractive. However, he is still very recognizable to anyone who knew him from the beginning. His ugliness and quirky prop humor is all a part of his branding.

[the incubus]

Originally Posted by Shockwave

Not discussing or questioning who is the better designer (I am not a designer).

So you're NOT a designer and yet you argue with someone who earns a living doing so and wish to be taken seriously??!?!?






Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[Shockwave]

Originally Posted by the incubus

So you're NOT a designer and yet you argue with someone who earns a living doing so and wish to be taken seriously??!?!?






Sorry, couldn't help myself.

LOL, that wasn't nice. So much for intelligent debate. Does one need to be a bull rider to know the smell of bull feces when he encounters it? No, just like I do not need to be a designer to discuss design.

Always love it when company owners publicly insult others on a public forum containing potential customers.

You sir, are pure class.

Don't worry though, I'll get around to responding to your other post when I get the chance.

[FatalIgnorance]

Originally Posted by the incubus

So you're NOT a designer and yet you argue with someone who earns a living doing so and wish to be taken seriously??!?!?

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Been reading through this, you're making yourself look like an *** here. Really all that matters is if the general public thinks a logo is cool. Say all you want about how it's design is flawed, but the general public thinks the critical logo is cool. I wont state why I think it's cool, because at this point I think you'd just shove design bs down my throat about how I'm wrong.
I'd also be willing to bet money that anyone that goes to your website would never guess that you're a designer. Not trying to get into a "my logo is better than yours!" argument, but your logo and website are not representative of this high standard you seem to be holding everyone else to. But hey you say it's great (the logo, maybe you didn't design your website, I don't know), and you're the designer, so what do I know.

[ihateionhaters]

Lol it seems like just last week we were practicing with critical...
Wait I haven't played in months....

[the incubus]

Originally Posted by Shockwave

LOL, that wasn't nice. So much for intelligent debate. Does one need to be a bull rider to know the smell of bull feces when he encounters it? No, just like I do not need to be a designer to discuss design.

Always love it when company owners publicly insult others on a public forum containing potential customers.

You sir, are pure class.

Don't worry though, I'll get around to responding to your other post when I get the chance.

Me, mad?... No way. In fact I had a good hard laugh when you stated you were not a designer. Besides that... What's not tastefully hysterical about the neanderthals that are Beavis and Butthead?

Besides that, You can debate this further all on your own. As far as I'm concerned you're uneducated assessment of my "Logo" will be 100% meaningless since you begin by stating I do not have a logo when CLEARLY I do.

And lets be honest here, it was never an intelligent debate on your part. You, like so many other people on public forums do, chimed in to attack me because you simply didn't appreciate or understand my point of view. Then, you googled a term you've probably never heard before simply to make seem like you knew what you were talking about and believe me it was clearly evident that was indeed the case from the moment you proceeded to lecture me that its importance is trivial.

[Shockwave]

Originally Posted by the incubus

Besides that, You can debate this further all on your own. As far as I'm concerned you're uneducated assessment of my "Logo" will be 100% meaningless since you begin by stating I do not have a logo when CLEARLY I do.

Does this mean you don't want to talk to me anymore and that we can't be friends?

[the incubus]

Originally Posted by FatalIgnorance

Been reading through this, you're making yourself look like an *** here. Really all that matters is if the general public thinks a logo is cool. Say all you want about how it's design is flawed, but the general public thinks the critical logo is cool. I wont state why I think it's cool, because at this point I think you'd just shove design bs down my throat about how I'm wrong.
I'd also be willing to bet money that anyone that goes to your website would never guess that you're a designer. Not trying to get into a "my logo is better than yours!" argument, but your logo and website are not representative of this high standard you seem to be holding everyone else to. But hey you say it's great (the logo, maybe you didn't design your website, I don't know), and you're the designer, so what do I know.

Why can't it be that someone posts their point of view and someone else posts theirs without calling the other out? Why must it always be confrontational here on PBN?

If I had the time to invest into making a cool looking website I would but the programming costs more than I would like to spend. Furthermore web design is a genre that is unique and separate from the rest because of the interactivity. I can design a site but it takes time I don't have with 3-year old twins, a 7-year old a wife, a Design business, a side Paintball venture and racing.

My site serves its purpose just fine and while it should look better, that's the best looking of the templates provided by my ISP and it's FREE. I can completely understand about the weakness of my site.

Let me ask you guys something... Do you guys like the way this looks?



And if you expressed that you didn't like it publicly and gave reasons as to why, why should anyone jump all over you because they disagree? There have been countless terrible designs in this industry and there have been some very good ones. In my opinion, based on my design experience, I've always felt the Critical logo isn't very good. Why should anyone take issue with that?

[Shockwave]

Originally Posted by the incubus

In my opinion, based on my design experience, I've always felt the Critical logo isn't very good. Why should anyone take issue with that?

Nothing wrong with that - you just tend to express your opinion like a raging <insert genitalia synonym here>. You make assumptions about people and their levels of experience, intelligence, and expertise, and present yourself like you're Zarathustra himself.

Accusing me of googling the design terms that you used is nothing short of pompous and arrogant. I have no insight into your intelligence or knowledge base and thus do not attack it.

You make an indirect appeal to PBN to "not call the other out" on points of views. I take this as you desiring for a positive and constructive environment in which differing ideas can flourish. In direct contradiction to this, you position yourself as the "design expert" of this thread, providing only scathing critique of everything. If you really do want to take part in a positive environment, how about taking a step that way and providing your feedback in less of a dick-ish manner?

[the incubus]

Originally Posted by Shockwave

Accusing me of googling the design terms that you used is nothing short of pompous and arrogant.

How is that Pompous and Arrogant? Unless you are familiar with design terms, you would most likely never heard the term. However you took it upon yourself to post on the subject matter just to TRY and prove me wrong and then stated that it was irrelevant in logos which is [for lack of a better term] Horse Manure! C'mon dude, seriously.

Then I call you on it and I'm a dick? LOL

Gotta love PBN.


Speaking in an adult and logical manor,

Think about it thoroughly... If a logo is the face of a company it will be plastered all over their products. So therefore, it is a designer's responsibility to make it as perfect as possible since potentially millions of eyes will see it. On top of that, think of the promotional aspect... I'm sure you've been to events and have seen giant banners all over the place, correct?

Now think about how those little inconsistencies and imperfections become more prominent when enlarged to such a degree... You getting it now?

As for the font's legibility, it is indeed not very good and a bit odd. There's nothing to debate there. But that doesn't mean it doesn't appeal to countless others. It also doesn't mean some can't dislike it either.

[Shockwave]

Originally Posted by the incubus

How is that Pompous and Arrogant? Unless you are familiar with design terms, you would most likely never heard the term. However you took it upon yourself to post on the subject matter just to TRY and prove me wrong and then stated that it was irrelevant in logos which is [for lack of a better term] Horse Manure! C'mon dude, seriously.

LOL, I didn't know that you were sitting behind me watching my screen and checking what I Google. For what it's worth, I knew what kerning was before you came into my life. It's a joke around here at the company I work at that anything the creative team turns in late was "because of the kerning". I am not sure why you keep on insisting that I am ignorant.

BTW, again - you don't need to be a designer to be familiar with design terms. Just like I don't have to be intimately familiar with arrogant individuals to recognize when I hear one. You are not a member of an elite design aristocracy that oversees all of society.

I'm sure you didn't have a master's degree in paintball trigger manufacturing when you decided to produce your own, but you had gleaned knowledge and through your own experience, were able to produce your own triggers.

Anyways, this is getting way off topic. Let's try and get back on and try and be semi-constructive:
There is no doubt in anyone's mind that you are a designer! If you don't mind sharing based upon your expertise -
If you were approached by this company to redesign the logo, but keep the "spirit of the logo" (gotta keep those Carrot Top and Aztec fans happy), what would be the main design elements that you would immediately tackle?

If you don't have the time to do mockups - I'll be happy to attempt to follow some general instructions and do them myself with your guidance. Who knows, maybe Critical will have a modded logo for 2013?