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Old 02-11-2012, 01:39 PM #22
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Originally Posted by Treghc View Post
Yup. Everyone is assuming they know what "perfect" is, but it's rather obvious no human could possibly know. Perfection is purely subjective to our species, so you only open a door the size of this universe for opportunity to side-step around objective answers. This thread, in it's entirety, is absolutely useless.
I don't frequently agree completely with Treghc, but this is absolutely true.

And on the same note, I dislike when people call God perfect. What does that mean outside of the human context - where God supposedly dwells?
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Old 02-11-2012, 03:14 PM #23
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To paraphrase Daniel Kirk, the Bible and by extension the Hebrew people rarely defined God as "what he is like" but rather by "what has he done". The notion of describing God (omnipresent, perfect, etc) is a very ancient Greek thing.
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Old 02-11-2012, 03:20 PM #24
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
To paraphrase Daniel Kirk, the Bible and by extension the Hebrew people rarely defined God as "what he is like" but rather by "what has he done". The notion of describing God (omnipresent, perfect, etc) is a very ancient Greek thing.
Interesting. I'd like to see what he has done too.

But I digress.
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Old 02-11-2012, 04:18 PM #25
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You all make good points, but the fact is that many Christians DO refer to their god as perfect. At the very least that statement should be meaningless.
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Old 02-11-2012, 04:24 PM #26
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How many times have we gone over that many modern Christians often skew the Bible/Christian Doctrine/God himself?
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Old 02-11-2012, 04:27 PM #27
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One more than we had previously.
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Old 02-11-2012, 04:33 PM #28
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Cute. And that's what you're basing some of your argument on? Something we've talked about over and over again and does nothing but lessen the faux strength of your argument?
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Old 02-11-2012, 04:55 PM #29
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... Can you think of an instance where you can intend to do something without having that intention being caused by a need or want because I can't. Saying that god can intend without a need or want seems like special pleading. It also feels like we're discussing semantics.
I think the language you have chosen is confusing the issue. To say that my "intention" to do something is because I "want" to do it is redundant. In this instance the two words have identical meanings.

To say that my "intention" is inspired by a "want" (or lack) is an entirely different statement.

You're use of the word "want" above is in the same context as I used it in my first sentence, but is smuggling in an entirely different meaning ie) how I used "want" in the second sentence.

I can have an intention (want as a verb) without having a lack (want as a noun).
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Old 02-11-2012, 06:06 PM #30
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How many times have we gone over that many modern Christians often skew the Bible/Christian Doctrine/God himself?
Since it's a highly prevalent position taken by modern believers, I hardly think it's irrelevant. If anything their position is more relevant. An interpretation of scripture is meaningless unless it has followers.
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Old 02-11-2012, 06:20 PM #31
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You all make good points, but the fact is that many Christians DO refer to their god as perfect. At the very least that statement should be meaningless.
Conceptually it is not meaningless.
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Old 02-11-2012, 06:36 PM #32
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Since it's a highly prevalent position taken by modern believers, I hardly think it's irrelevant. If anything their position is more relevant. An interpretation of scripture is meaningless unless it has followers.
I would argue that the opinions of those who spend their lives studying the Bible is much more important than the masses. In the same way, a scientist's opinion on global warming is much more valid than the masses. Here's the bottom line. Some peoples interpretations ARE more important than others. Someone who spends their whole life studying something has a much more valid opinion than someone who hasn't.
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Old 02-12-2012, 12:01 AM #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami View Post
Since it's a highly prevalent position taken by modern believers, I hardly think it's irrelevant. If anything their position is more relevant. An interpretation of scripture is meaningless unless it has followers.
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
I would argue that the opinions of those who spend their lives studying the Bible is much more important than the masses. In the same way, a scientist's opinion on global warming is much more valid than the masses. Here's the bottom line. Some peoples interpretations ARE more important than others. Someone who spends their whole life studying something has a much more valid opinion than someone who hasn't.
I think this in a way refers to TSA2's "Pseudo" thread he made a few days ago. To follow his global warming example, anyone who's educated enough in geography and history knows that the craze over global warming is wack due to the Earth's cyclic warm and cold phases, wherein we're in a cold phase and gradually getting to a warm phase (though it'll be many years before we reach the peak). But look at the news, ask anyone who thinks they know something about it, any politician, etc. and you'll see that the masses have a very different outlook on it. So instead of considering the masses, consider the intellectual and knowledgeable and from there is where you get your info. Are you going to ask a high school graduate or Stephen Hawking about colonizing another planet?
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:29 AM #34
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To follow his global warming example, anyone who's educated enough in geography and history knows that the craze over global warming is wack due to the Earth's cyclic warm and cold phases, wherein we're in a cold phase and gradually getting to a warm phase (though it'll be many years before we reach the peak). But look at the news, ask anyone who thinks they know something about it, any politician, etc. and you'll see that the masses have a very different outlook on it.
I actually believe in global warming (as does almost every scientist), but I guess the example still works (under the proper presumption).
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:23 PM #35
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Originally Posted by teamsilentassassins View Post
I think this in a way refers to TSA2's "Pseudo" thread he made a few days ago. To follow his global warming example, anyone who's educated enough in geography and history knows that the craze over global warming is wack due to the Earth's cyclic warm and cold phases, wherein we're in a cold phase and gradually getting to a warm phase (though it'll be many years before we reach the peak). But look at the news, ask anyone who thinks they know something about it, any politician, etc. and you'll see that the masses have a very different outlook on it. So instead of considering the masses, consider the intellectual and knowledgeable and from there is where you get your info. Are you going to ask a high school graduate or Stephen Hawking about colonizing another planet?
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:09 PM #36
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I actually believe in global warming (as does almost every scientist), but I guess the example still works (under the proper presumption).
I do too, because it's supposed to be happening. I think you may have missed my point a little, but I could've not been clear.

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Old 02-12-2012, 02:46 PM #37
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Originally Posted by teamsilentassassins View Post
I think this in a way refers to TSA2's "Pseudo" thread he made a few days ago. To follow his global warming example, anyone who's educated enough in geography and history knows that the craze over global warming is wack due to the Earth's cyclic warm and cold phases, wherein we're in a cold phase and gradually getting to a warm phase (though it'll be many years before we reach the peak). But look at the news, ask anyone who thinks they know something about it, any politician, etc. and you'll see that the masses have a very different outlook on it. So instead of considering the masses, consider the intellectual and knowledgeable and from there is where you get your info. Are you going to ask a high school graduate or Stephen Hawking about colonizing another planet?
It is hilarious that you're disparaging the masses for taking a different theological position than theologians, and in the same breath taking a pseudo-intellectual position on climate science which disagrees with the majority of scientists in the field.
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Old 02-12-2012, 03:07 PM #38
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It is hilarious that you're disparaging the masses for taking a different theological position than theologians, and in the same breath taking a pseudo-intellectual position on climate science which disagrees with the majority of scientists in the field.
How do you suppose? Many geologists who, in truth, have the most authority concerning global warming, will agree with my statement mainly because it was them who made the statement in the first place.
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Old 02-12-2012, 04:47 PM #39
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I do too, because it's supposed to be happening. I think you may have missed my point a little, but I could've not been clear.
Global warming implies more than just a warming/cooling cycle, but rather a temperature increase primarily due to increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases produced by human activities such as deforestation and burning fossil fuels (along with other things). The idea of global warming is something that won't stop or reverse based on the Earth, but will continue to rise until drastic changes our made in human behavior.

To continue through my example (because apparently it needs to be explained...), most (90-91%) scientists would agree that humans have had a major impact on global temperatures. However, if you were to ask our country (most of which have no understanding of global warming), you would see a very different number. Clearly, the opinion of the scientists is more important than that of the masses. In the same sense, the opinions of the theologians, at least in my opinion, is far more influential and significant than the masses (most of which have no understanding of theology).

That certainly went down a path I didn't intend (or even see coming) but I hope my example makes sense now.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:18 PM #40
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Global warming implies more than just a warming/cooling cycle, but rather a temperature increase primarily due to increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases produced by human activities such as deforestation and burning fossil fuels (along with other things). The idea of global warming is something that won't stop or reverse based on the Earth, but will continue to rise until drastic changes our made in human behavior.
I agree, humans have had a huge impact. Throughout history, geologists can pinpoint exactly when fluctuations have occurred throughout the cyclic process, but clearly there has been no other time in history where humans have had the ability to have the impact we have today. So while yes, humans are a large factor, the process of global warming, it's part of a cycle that Earth has been going through for millions of years.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:31 PM #41
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So while yes, humans are a large factor, the process of global warming, it's part of a cycle that Earth has been going through for millions of years.
I am going to stop this conversation for the sake of keeping this thread on at least the right subject.
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:40 AM #42
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Since it's a highly prevalent position taken by modern believers, I hardly think it's irrelevant. If anything their position is more relevant. An interpretation of scripture is meaningless unless it has followers.
I think it's irrelevant when the masses are obviously wrong. Unless telling people who disagree with the masses that the masses disagree with them is some form of analytical point.
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