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Old 02-04-2012, 09:30 PM #22
SmartWorrPartsPlayer
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You don't mind if I take your designs and AutoCAD them?
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Old 02-04-2012, 09:52 PM #23
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You don't mind if I take your designs and AutoCAD them?
by all means!
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Old 02-04-2012, 09:55 PM #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TherealInsomniac View Post
I had one of these PM8's with the vertical LPR... I hated adjusting it.
this. i like the lpr in the back soooo much more. i say leave it the way it is. the macroless is cool and all but its not that necessary. 5* thread though
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Old 02-04-2012, 10:12 PM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaSsAcRe251 View Post
Agreed. But also, you're very rarely going to be adjusting it. And I would deal with the moved lpr if it meant have a single tube.
I adjusted it just about every tournament. set the gun for the conditions, ya know...

With size the die of the LPR, a more elegant solution would be to move into the grip frame vertically, then adjusts as you would any-side adjusting regulator
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Old 02-04-2012, 10:26 PM #26
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Originally Posted by vs3 man ftw View Post
this. i like the lpr in the back soooo much more. i say leave it the way it is. the macroless is cool and all but its not that necessary. 5* thread though
yeah, thats why i considered the pm7 placement. It lowers the profile but the lpr is still easily accessible.

As for the macroless... look guys the dm is a great marker and would still be great without the changes i suggested but if you look at the pb news section and see the releases, most are macroless.

Mini
Axe
G6r
Victory
Vanguard demon
Luxe
Rogue
the new Vapor
valken proton/ mokal aura
Zr1
09 impulse

I look at this potential gun design as a high end option for players that want to shoot dye, want to shoot a matrix, want macroless and compact. Not a complete replacement. If it gains popularity with the masses, who knows in a few years but it's like a concept car.

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Last edited by da oreo : 02-04-2012 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 02-05-2012, 12:48 AM #27
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Originally Posted by MaSsAcRe251 View Post
Agreed. But also, you're very rarely going to be adjusting it. And I would deal with the moved lpr if it meant have a single tube.
why not just reduce the operating pressure and streamline the flow throughout the bolt and get rid of said lpr..

done done and done..
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Old 02-05-2012, 01:11 AM #28
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Originally Posted by FrmrSpecialist View Post
why not just reduce the operating pressure and streamline the flow throughout the bolt and get rid of said lpr..

done done and done..
then it wouldn't be a balanced spool it would be a rail with no marco line and with the air being ran up threw the frame the grip would have to become either taller or longer to fit the board and 9v plus the tube

i shoot a dm because of the lpr

and just thought about the reg would have to be wider now too for the supply and return
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Old 02-05-2012, 04:17 AM #29
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From manufacturing point of view this changes will be so much expensive. I don't think that Dye or PE will go macro less way.
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Old 02-05-2012, 08:50 AM #30
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Originally Posted by fragmortus View Post
then it wouldn't be a balanced spool it would be a rail with no marco line and with the air being ran up threw the frame the grip would have to become either taller or longer to fit the board and 9v plus the tube

[[[[i shoot a dm because of the lpr]]]]]
exactly!

and just thought about the reg would have to be wider now too for the supply and return

yeah, i hit that in the pro vs cons on the main post. The reg would need to be widdened to house the supply but not by much.

Last edited by da oreo : 02-05-2012 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 02-05-2012, 09:34 AM #31
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body design update.
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Old 02-05-2012, 10:06 AM #32
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i like the idea. i like the concept car idea aswell, only releasing a few at a time to keep value and demand up. while keeping problems as isolated as possible to correct issues until a final line up is ready.

also with the lpr thats currently on the dm12 i think it could easily be moved to the front, and lower the profile slightly. remember the lpr's on the pm7's were much larger than whats out now, and those were still small markers.

the main con i see is teching with the gas through design. but then again if you take care of your marker like you should, i dont see it being that big of an issue at all. it would be a nice touch for maybe a PL model, while keeping the base version similar to what it is now with macro.

lastly some see oled as an overpriced upgrade. but they could at a minimum do a similar display to the ego markers. its not as glam as an oled for some, but with a $1300 gun i think some sort of readout should be standard.

overall it would just be cool to see an attempt to overhaul the dm line. not necessarily replacing it with this new design unless its deemed worth it. but atleast an attempt to switch it up a bit and offer a slight change would be cool. im a huge matrix fan and that will remain regardless but for god sakes take some risks and try something new.
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Old 02-05-2012, 11:16 AM #33
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Originally Posted by fragmortus View Post
then it wouldn't be a balanced spool it would be a rail with no marco line and with the air being ran up threw the frame the grip would have to become either taller or longer to fit the board and 9v plus the tube

i shoot a dm because of the lpr

and just thought about the reg would have to be wider now too for the supply and return
Incorrect on nearly all counts... the clone is a balanced spool with no LP.. the only reason dm's incorporated lprs from original inception were because they ran higher hprs ...
if you streamline the airflow of the bolt you can reduce operating pressure without loss of efficiency
And of you reduce operating pressure to 100psi what is the point of an lpr anyway

Also the rail is very much unbalanced
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Old 02-05-2012, 11:28 AM #34
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new reg picture uploaded
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:17 PM #35
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My argument for macroless surround 2 points.
1. Comfort
2. theoretical reduction of leaking points



The more important point of the two is the second. When dealing with a macroline there are two possiple failure points at each end. One at the fitting and one with the macroline itself. Any player who has been around long enough has faced that little annoying hiss that has streamed from an improper macro. Whether it is due to a traded gun and the previous owner didnt know how to cut a macro... or just old fittings that tend to leak. By making the gun macroless, you are reducing the points in which air has to travel between one body to another. In the dmf, the gun's possible failure points are reduced by 25%
Both guns are subject to leaks at
Solenoid
Bolt
LPR
HPR

where they differ:
DMF
Asa
Frame
top of HPR

DMR (regular)
2 macro fittings
2 macro line ends

The difference being that the fix for the dmf will be a simple oring replacement and the DMR requires total replacement, loctite or recut of macroline.

Again both style of guns, macro and macroless, are prone to leaking, if you just take a look at either forum, but in theory it should reduce it by 25%... so it's not really a pointless concept to integrate.

Last edited by da oreo : 02-05-2012 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 02-05-2012, 04:57 PM #36
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Just some thing I thought of if they go with the macroless (that I'm not a fan of) then they would have to redo the reg testers to work with it being placed between the reg and body. Now that's not a problem to do, but then all the reg testers that are out now won't really work with a macroless marker.
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Old 02-05-2012, 05:23 PM #37
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Just some thing I thought of if they go with the macroless (that I'm not a fan of) then they would have to redo the reg testers to work with it being placed between the reg and body. Now that's not a problem to do, but then all the reg testers that are out now won't really work with a macroless marker.
here you go



and if you didnt want to make the new reg tester, you could make a collar that goes over the hp air holes and screw in the reg tester over top.

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Old 02-05-2012, 07:47 PM #38
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Macro-line/fitting leaks = changing a simple and very cheap external part

Macro-less marker leaks = a lot more time diagnosing whether it is the solenoid, the bolt, or the internals which transfer the air. Also diagnosing and repair might require the trigger frame to be separated from the body.

It makes diagnosing and fixing leaking issues more complicated and difficult.

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Old 02-05-2012, 07:58 PM #39
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Originally Posted by Feloniousnick View Post
Macro-line/fitting leaks = changing a simple and very cheap external part

Macro-less marker leaks = a lot more time diagnosing whether it is the solenoid, the bolt, or the internals which transfer the air. Also diagnosing and repair might require the trigger frame to be separated from the body.

It makes diagnosing and fixing leaking issues more complicated and difficult.

The only hard one to diagnose is the frame to gun link. the asa to frame is easy and the reg to body one is easy.
And it only requires an oring, instead of a fitting or macroline, which would need to be recut. And if it is the gun to frame, then when you get home, you fix the gun, just like you would do with a leaking lpr or leaking solenoid.


added some gif animations!

my next focus will be on the frame design

Last edited by da oreo : 02-05-2012 at 11:45 PM.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:10 AM #40
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:39 AM #41
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Oreo, why does a marker need to be gas through?.. i guess what I'm saying is that why do you think that going gas through would validate the matrix as a high end gun.
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Old 02-06-2012, 11:13 AM #42
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Quote:
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Oreo, why does a marker need to be gas through?.. i guess what I'm saying is that why do you think that going gas through would validate the matrix as a high end gun.
This is the greatest question i think i have been asked on this thread And it took me a second to answer it. Not because i didnt know what to say but more because i wanted to make sure i answered it properly



It's the difference between a gallardo and a gallardo spyder. Both are lambos at the end of the day but one's a sleeker, cleaner and sexier version.

Sure a DMF is a DM at the end of the day but it's that high end option for guys who want it. Macro is gone, giving you that sleek convertible look. Price comes in the fact that making it a gas through takes more time and more precision milling, much like a regular hard top vs a convertible. Throw in a CF barrel and you are ready to rip.

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