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Old 02-03-2012, 08:35 PM #1
da oreo
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DMF (Dye Matrix Future)

Let me start by saying that the Matrix is hands down my favorite marker in paintball. If you dont believe me check out my thread, Evolution of the Matrix (http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3693410) and you will see, ive shot almost all of them since 2004. That being said, their are two major hang ups that dye seems to refuse to address.

1. Macroless gun design
2. Location of the LPR in order to make a single tubed marker.

I present to you, what we could be shooting (it was done in paint, quick cut and paste)
Looks kind of like a macroless NT but wait.
1st it works on a fuse bolt design
2nd it still has an lpr

Thicken the frame to house the air passages that will run into the gun. The air will go from the asa, to the frame and into the gun. Run the air from the gun, to the reg (see crude reg design below). From the hpr reg, back to the gun and into the lpr. From the lpr to the solenoid as well as the back of the fuse bolt. Solenoid to fuse bolt and done.




PM8 placement
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/8...8placement.png (rough work in paint)

PM7
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/6007/pm7version.png (rough sketch by paint)

similar to this one, that came out 4 years ago.



NEW BODY DESIGN* ONLY TWO AIR PASSAGES not 4. FOUR WOULD ONLY WORK IF YOU DID THE PM7 LPR PLACEMENT




ASA is easy enough


The hardest part is the Regulator but I believe I have it. Invert the reg. for the tubular part, elongate and hollow. The piston will ride all the way up into the dm, providing the gun with regulated HP air. This is the thing that always gets me but if i spent more time, im sure i could figure it out.

slight variation - http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1571/regh.png






Cons that i see.
We could lose some aspects of our adjustable trigger
The UL frame will be thicker in order to support the air passages
Potential minor leaks but this is encountered with all macroless guns. (if the luxe can get past this problem, i have no doubt we could)
under my very crude/incomplete reg design, it would have to be wider but not by a redic. amound.

Pros
sleeker profile
light weight
no macroline
lpr
fuse bolt
ironmen trigger
tooless grips
eye pipe
great board
low operating pressure
color coordinated orings
tooless fuse bolt removal
UL Barrell

In conclusion, the worst part is that the technology belongs to dye and proto already. I wouldnt mind one in blue with clear accents. Again, this is a very quick and crude look at what could be done but it is a start in my mind. Spread the word! hopefully it gets seen by one of the dye guys.

nicknamed it the DMF (Dye Matrix Future)

Quote:
Originally Posted by da oreo View Post
My argument for macroless surround 2 points.
1. Comfort
2. theoretical reduction of leaking points



The more important point of the two is the second. When dealing with a macroline there are two possiple failure points at each end. One at the fitting and one with the macroline itself. Any player who has been around long enough has faced that little annoying hiss that has streamed from an improper macro. Whether it is due to a traded gun and the previous owner didnt know how to cut a macro... or just old fittings that tend to leak. By making the gun macroless, you are reducing the points in which air has to travel between one body to another. In the dmf, the gun's possible failure points are reduced by 25%
Both guns are subject to leaks at
Solenoid
Bolt
LPR
HPR

where they differ:
DMF
Asa
Frame
top of HPR

DMR (regular)
2 macro fittings
2 macro line ends

The difference being that the fix for the dmf will be a simple oring replacement and the DMR requires total replacement, loctite or recut of macroline.

Again both style of guns, macro and macroless, are prone to leaking, if you just take a look at either forum, but in theory it should reduce it by 25%... so it's not really a pointless concept to integrate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justjoe View Post
Just some thing I thought of if they go with the macroless (that I'm not a fan of) then they would have to redo the reg testers to work with it being placed between the reg and body. Now that's not a problem to do, but then all the reg testers that are out now won't really work with a macroless marker.
here you go



and if you didnt want to make the new reg tester, you could make a collar that goes over the hp air holes and screw in the reg tester over top.

Last edited by da oreo : 07-22-2013 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:40 PM #2
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I'm bandwagoning this! Great thread. Hopefully the guys at Dye will stop being lazy for one 1 minute to read this.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:44 PM #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmartWorrPartsPlayer View Post
I'm bandwagoning this! Great thread. Hopefully the guys at Dye will stop being lazy for one 1 minute to read this.
I hope they see this and seriously see the potential they have but i dont think they are on pbn anymore. I just want one sooo bad.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:50 PM #4
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:54 PM #5
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Also forgot to mention that you could run it with a normal reg and normal asa, using a macro as long as you put on a mini drop that sealed the air passage hole at the bottom of the frame.

Last edited by da oreo : 02-03-2012 at 08:56 PM.
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:31 PM #6
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I had one of these PM8's with the vertical LPR... I hated adjusting it.
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Old 02-04-2012, 02:45 AM #7
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i want to find a 2009 impulse frame so i can make a body and use my dm8 bolt kit.
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Old 02-04-2012, 04:54 AM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TherealInsomniac View Post
I had one of these PM8's with the vertical LPR... I hated adjusting it.
Agreed. But also, you're very rarely going to be adjusting it. And I would deal with the moved lpr if it meant have a single tube.
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Old 02-04-2012, 06:29 AM #9
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awwi came in here bc i read the title and assumed it was a rumor thread about the dm13 or putting it on hold to see if we survive 12/21/2012
nice thread and idea,personally i wanted dye to make/try a macroless gun but seeing too many luxes going down and risking the comfort and/or shot of a dm is not worth it imo
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Old 02-04-2012, 08:51 AM #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToLiveInInfamy View Post
awwi came in here bc i read the title and assumed it was a rumor thread about the dm13 or putting it on hold to see if we survive 12/21/2012
nice thread and idea,personally i wanted dye to make/try a macroless gun but seeing too many luxes going down and risking the comfort and/or shot of a dm is not worth it imo
It's still a dm but with the feel of an nt and the macroless design of half the new guns released these days? This is the best of all worlds. People love how the nt feels in the hands, i love how it feels in the hands but you get a dm shot out of it! I'd go crazy for that.

When it comes to the "NT" i feel this is a direction they could have explored. Sure they are going to face their issues at first but tell me what is more valuable these days

2008 luxe or 2010 dye nt? The original problems with the nt lies in the very bolt design... the fuse bolt is proven. The fuse bolt will be fine and the lpr is based on 4 year old technology that is also proven. The only thing that is new is the macroless design and the reg (which the reg is basically a hyper 3, just inverted!!!!)



and what should dye do?
release them like the luxe. Only a limited number for guys who can beat the crap out of them (and me ) Then find where they need to improve. Then come out with the first big release. Again only 500 or so to see what mass production problems are. Maybe a defective o-ring needs replaced or somethign small that you usually have with a new gun release. then another 500. People will be foaming at the mouth to get their hands on one and they will fly off the shelf each time. Basically the tickle me elmo of paintball.

this may sound ****ty but what does it do?
1. ensure great customer service because if you have something wrong, there is such a small number that dye can help you.
2. dye knows they will make money and sell all their units when one is released... proven gain.
3. Since they will only come out at a limited amount. their resale will hold very well and people will be willing to buy them from retailers. You wont have to knock them down to 999 and throw in a free rotor a year after their released. 3 years later people will still be buying them at 1600. maybe the following year you throw in an oled or something to keep the buzz high.
PE didnt come out with the 2012 guns for a reason... they want to make a dye killer, not a dye competitor. Small incremental changes 2.1... 2.2 and then bam! 3.0 macroless geo or macroless ego or both.

Last edited by da oreo : 02-04-2012 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 02-04-2012, 09:25 AM #11
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Also: pm'd cs900 hopefully i can get his eyes to look at this. that man is a custom gun genius!
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Old 02-04-2012, 09:28 AM #12
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First of all, macro-less is completely pointless. It makes servicing harder, requires the frame to be bigger, and does nothing for the feel of the gun if you have an asa with the macro line out of the front.

Second of all, look at the side picture of the DM12. If you asked someone to look at that picture (that didn't know otherwise) and tell how many tubes it has, they would say one. The LPR is tiny and the marker is barely bigger than any other single tube spool.

People always claim that the PM8 was the best Dye/proto gun ever blah blah blah but there were a lot of issues with the LPR where it was. They tended to leak a lot and were a pain to adjust and maintain.

I would be fine with them trying to do these things to the NT, but leave the DM series exactly how it is. It is by far the best spoolie series of markers ever made both in terms of feel in the hands, ease of maintenance, ease of tuning, efficiency, perfectly smooth shot, and the quiet and soft sound signature.

At most I would suggest that they put more work into making the eye-pipe system a lot more durable. Other than that the markers are perfect the way they are.
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Old 02-04-2012, 09:44 AM #13
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Don't count on the macro-less ego/geo. I can't find it, I think it's in the Te chpb Q/A with Jack Wood and he says that it's more than likely not going to happen.
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Old 02-04-2012, 10:34 AM #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feloniousnick View Post
Don't count on the macro-less ego/geo. I can't find it, I think it's in the Te chpb Q/A with Jack Wood and he says that it's more than likely not going to happen.
Actually Jack Woods stated flat out that Eclipse guns will never go macro-less. He state that it was due to reasons of making the guns easier to tech. cant air up a macro-less gun with frame off it.
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Old 02-04-2012, 10:42 AM #15
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Yea, I think it was in those Q/A's but I can't remember exactly.
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Old 02-04-2012, 11:42 AM #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feloniousnick View Post
First of all, macro-less is completely pointless. It makes servicing harder, requires the frame to be bigger, and does nothing for the feel of the gun if you have an asa with the macro line out of the front.

Alot of good paintball companies are going macroless. If it was completely pointless and does nothing, then they would have gone out of business.

Second of all, look at the side picture of the DM12. If you asked someone to look at that picture (that didn't know otherwise) and tell how many tubes it has, they would say one. The LPR is tiny and the marker is barely bigger than any other single tube spool.

But for people who actually play paintball and thus would be using the gun, they would say it is 2... You show someone who didnt know otherwise and they would probably tell you it was some new angel.

People always claim that the PM8 was the best Dye/proto gun ever blah blah blah but there were a lot of issues with the LPR where it was. They tended to leak a lot and were a pain to adjust and maintain.

The pm8, had the bolt that led the next generation of dye paintball markers and the lpr is prone to leaking to begin with. The lpr placement would be that of a pm8 but the lpr technology would be that of the dm12. Were not putting pm8 lprs in a new dm... were moving the lpr to a pm8 location

I would be fine with them trying to do these things to the NT, but leave the DM series exactly how it is. It is by far the best spoolie series of markers ever made both in terms of feel in the hands, ease of maintenance, ease of tuning, efficiency, perfectly smooth shot, and the quiet and soft sound signature.

This design uses the fuse bolt and has an lpr, it is a dye matrix, not a dye NT.

At most I would suggest that they put more work into making the eye-pipe system a lot more durable. Other than that the markers are perfect the way they are.

Eye pipe is made from plastic in a high contact environment. They wear like orings but that is better then stripped eye plates. I do agree though that there is always room for improvement.
and for the PE thing, i didn't know so thanks for the heads up, as i mentioned before, i've been a dye fanboy for 8 years. I haven't kept a detailed heads up on what they (PE) are doing, mainly follow dye.

Last edited by da oreo : 02-04-2012 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 02-04-2012, 01:17 PM #17
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A lot of good companies have gone macro-less while the 2 biggest and most successful have not..... hmmmm....

The point I was trying to make with the 2 tubes is that it has a plenty small profile with the LPR where it is, so I don't see how making it more of a pain to get to would improve anything.

Yea, I know about the fusebolt thing, I just meant I'd rather them do their testing of different things like macro-less on other platforms other than the DM series. See if the other factors, like the UL frame changes needed to make it happen, would be alright. I just don't want them to start messing up the best spool valve ever.

I mostly meant the cracking when the barrel is on too tight. I would think there would be an easy way to create a buffer or something between the eye-pipe and the barrel to prevent that.
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Old 02-04-2012, 01:43 PM #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feloniousnick View Post
A lot of good companies have gone macro-less while the 2 biggest and most successful have not..... hmmmm....

How did they get there? They werent always giants. They listened to what people wanted and delivered. Macroless is the future of paintball. It's getting easier and easier to produce and everyone is buying into it.
Also take a look at the dm3 and then look at the dm4, The jump between those two guns will be more then the jump between the DM12 and DMF


The point I was trying to make with the 2 tubes is that it has a plenty small profile with the LPR where it is, so I don't see how making it more of a pain to get to would improve anything.

It is making the profile smaller, which is a huge improvement in a community that will complain about ounces. Also the lpr requires alot less service than the fuse bolt. Lube it, tune the gun and you're good for a few cases.

Yea, I know about the fusebolt thing, I just meant I'd rather them do their testing of different things like macro-less on other platforms other than the DM series. See if the other factors, like the UL frame changes needed to make it happen, would be alright. I just don't want them to start messing up the best spool valve ever.

And this is where i would agree and maybe i wasnt clear in my first post but more so in my 3rd when i talked about the release. This gun would be like the DMC. It would be a high end option that would slowly be released and refined. Keep the traditional dm because it is your bread and butter but put this option out there for the guys who want it. This is what the "NT" could of been.

I mostly meant the cracking when the barrel is on too tight. I would think there would be an easy way to create a buffer or something between the eye-pipe and the barrel to prevent that.

Last edited by da oreo : 04-03-2012 at 02:30 AM.
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Old 02-04-2012, 05:51 PM #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TherealInsomniac View Post
I had one of these PM8's with the vertical LPR... I hated adjusting it.

there is also the option of going the pm7 route and placing it in the front of the marker. That would still bring up the frame and lowering the profile.


http://www.e-paintball.com/d_images/79066-3.jpg


that way, you still have easy access and just integrate a contact pad.
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Old 02-04-2012, 08:42 PM #20
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This is actually a very cool, if not well thought out, option.
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Old 02-04-2012, 09:17 PM #21
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These are some rough designs i did, thinking on how the air port would run on the gun for macroless

PM7 placement (im starting to like this more and more)
1. because it makes it easier to make the gun macroless
2. LPR is easier to reach/adjust
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/6007/pm7version.png (rough sketch by paint)

PM8 placement
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/8...8placement.png (rough work in paint)

Last edited by da oreo : 02-05-2012 at 09:47 AM.
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