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Old 02-07-2012, 03:27 PM #232
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Originally Posted by Matt.is.back2011 View Post
I've stated numerous times that i've seen this play style (muta swarm) from rookie zergs all the way up to professional gamers. I think it can be improved.
It's only very very recent that zurg will go pure upgraded muta. Dimaga played the other day and had 3/3 mutas, one of the only time's I have ever seen that. Dimaga/stephano have been recently popularizing this technique. The only way to deal with it is mothership and HT. It should be looked at though, maybe not a reduction in speed, but a reduction in acceleration(which is already slow)
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Old 02-07-2012, 03:30 PM #233
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Originally Posted by setircopyH;[B
74296558]lol is all i have to say to that. you have absolutely no room to sit here and attempt to talk about balance when you can barely play the game. watching "pro" games doesnt mean you have any credibility[/b]

also, the entire point of a zerg army is to NOT face an army head on, thats the entire reason why they have such fast units, for flanking, multiple angled attacks etc.
Makes sense. What's your opinion on college sports? Politics? Economics? Literature? Globalization?

Have you played sports professionally? Written a thesis on political philosophy or studied first hand economic discrepancies in the US or abroad? Have you suggested game changing initiatives for companies to be more competitive in a global market? Written an award winning novel?

My answer is most likely not, and that doesn't really matter. You don't need to be a professional or great at something to have an opinion of it and make an argument on why you think it can be improved.

And watching professional games doesn't need to give me credibility, I wasn't asking for it. I was providing context to my reasoning.
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Old 02-07-2012, 03:34 PM #234
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actually theres tons of ways to deal with it, stalker/archon, marine/thor

1 ****ing pheonix microd perfectly can kill infinite amount of mutas
Your absolutely right, but were talking about mainly vs protoss which is being popularized as of late. Most toss take the mothership HT/archon route in addition to blink stalkers so that they can push into the broods that most likely will be coming.
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Old 02-07-2012, 03:35 PM #235
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It's only very very recent that zurg will go pure upgraded muta. Dimaga played the other day and had 3/3 mutas, one of the only time's I have ever seen that. Dimaga/stephano have been recently popularizing this technique. The only way to deal with it is mothership and HT. It should be looked at though, maybe not a reduction in speed, but a reduction in acceleration(which is already slow)
I'm more concerned with sheer numbers, than upgrades. I usually see a +1 carapace or +1 attack on mutas, and the whole 25+ muta ball is just annoying as all hell. It pins Toss and Terrans not only in their base, but relegates them to a certain play style that is easily countered.

Toss and Terran don't have such units, or at the very least, a decent counter to it.

I think the new units each race is getting in HOTS will be an improvement in that area.
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Old 02-07-2012, 03:40 PM #236
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Originally Posted by Matt.is.back2011 View Post
I'm more concerned with sheer numbers, than upgrades. I usually see a +1 carapace or +1 attack on mutas, and the whole 25+ muta ball is just annoying as all hell. It pins Toss and Terrans not only in their base, but relegates them to a certain play style that is easily countered.

Toss and Terran don't have such units.
Right now all you can do is keep HT at your base and react fast enough to storm and scare the pack away, while your stalkers come in for support. I don't play toss, but everytime I see stephano lose, its to mothership.
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Old 02-07-2012, 03:44 PM #237
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The new units in HOTS are an improvement but people like you will still complain about it because it's still not useful.

If you think thors get magic boxed, the tempest and the new terran anti-muta units are gonna get magic boxed as well so toss and terran's answer to mutas in HOTS is ****. The only answers to mutas are the strats used right now.

If you take away the usefulness of mutas, zerg loses every time.

Zerg units are in fact weaker, but faster and cheaper. Zerg relies on quick flanking /hit-and-run attacks and a good economy to constantly resupply his army (that gets torn up by anything) while slowly crippling his opponent, which ultimately ends up in the zerg slowly overwhelming and overrunning the opponent (as in true zerg swarm fashion).

It's not easy, but as long as you can continue to hold off attacks by the zerg and keep the number of bases even or even if he has one more base than you, you will eventually beat zerg, even if he's got a ****-ton of mutas because his units are constantly dying and he has to constantly resupply, while your units stay alive longer because they are more durable so your unit numbers keep getting higher and higher while zerg tries to maintain a high amount of units

And if he's got too much mutas to handle in your base, BASE RACE!
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Old 02-07-2012, 03:49 PM #238
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The new units in HOTS are an improvement but people like you will still complain about it because it's still not useful.

If you think thors get magic boxed, the tempest and the new terran anti-muta units are gonna get magic boxed as well so toss and terran's answer to mutas in HOTS is ****.

If you take away the usefulness of mutas, zerg loses every time.

Zerg units are in fact weaker, but faster and cheaper. Zerg relies on quick flanking /hit-and-run attacks and a good economy to constantly resupply his army (that gets torn up by anything) while slowly crippling his opponent, which ultimately ends up in the zerg slowly overwhelming and overrunning the opponent (as in true zerg swarm fashion).

It's not easy, but as long as you can continue to hold off attacks by the zerg and keep the number of bases even, you will eventually beat zerg, even if he's got a ****-ton of mutas.

And if he's got too much mutas to handle in your base, BASE RACE!
As a terran player, I haven't looked at the new Toss units much. But the new Thor unit I think is a HUGE improvement bc Thor's biggest weakness is it's ridiculous size. Muta's can just dance around it hopping from refinery to mineral line, to refinery while the Thor takes FOREVER to move. The new unit improves on that as it will be faster, and more mobile in between buildings.

I think people like you will see a noticeable decrease in Muta play once HOTS comes out, proving my POV correct.
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Old 02-07-2012, 03:52 PM #239
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As a terran player, I haven't looked at the new Toss units much. But the new Thor unit I think is a HUGE improvement bc Thor's biggest weakness is it's ridiculous size. Muta's can just dance around it hopping from refinery to mineral line, to refinery while the Thor takes FOREVER to move. The new unit improves on that as it will be faster, and more mobile in between buildings.

I think people like you will see a noticeable decrease in Muta play once HOTS comes out, proving my POV correct.
The new terran unit has a much smaller splash radius, and does much less damage. Magic-boxed mutas will still have the same effect.

Muta play will decrease slightly because zerg will be worried but after a short adjustment period, muta play will go back to the level it is at now.
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Old 02-07-2012, 03:57 PM #240
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Originally Posted by Matt.is.back2011 View Post
As a terran player, I haven't looked at the new Toss units much. But the new Thor unit I think is a HUGE improvement bc Thor's biggest weakness is it's ridiculous size. Muta's can just dance around it hopping from refinery to mineral line, to refinery while the Thor takes FOREVER to move. The new unit improves on that as it will be faster, and more mobile in between buildings.

I think people like you will see a noticeable decrease in Muta play once HOTS comes out, proving my POV correct.
The Thor does have a ridiculously long air range though. It will depend on when terran can get their "superthor" out. One Thor (to me is BS) because it will mean you have to go mass marine. Terran repair on PF is absolute BS, not so much on turrets though because you can snipe repairing scvs EZ.
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Old 02-07-2012, 03:59 PM #241
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attempting to explain to people who barely know how to play the game is like teaching a kid in elementary school physics.

matt you do realize right now the most OP unit in the game is the thor right?
No, it's the Mutalisk. Thor is easily countered by Immortals, Siege tanks/BC's, and Speedlings.

You may do a better job at persuasion if you spent less time using ad-homs, and more time actually, you know, explaining your POV.
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:01 PM #242
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No, it's the Mutalisk. Thor is easily countered by Immortals, Siege tanks/BC's, and Speedlings.

You may do a better job at persuasion if you spent less time using ad-homs, and more time actually, you know, explaining your POV.
I think he means that the Thor has the highest DPS of any unit in the game. If you have ever been thor rushed in team games, you know how tough they are to kill once upgraded even with feedback. BTW destiny right now is gonig mass muta vs toss http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/Destiny
Just ignore that kid setirwhatever, he just wants attention.
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:03 PM #243
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I think he means that the Thor has the highest DPS of any unit in the game. If you have ever been thor rushed in team games, you know how tough they are to kill once upgraded even with feedback. BTW destiny right now is gonig mass muta vs toss http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/Destiny
Yeah, 3,3 Thor is stupid OP. I agree with that.

I haven't played team games in about a year though, so i can't comment on the frustration. I just know an easy terran counter to Thors are well positioned siege tanks, or BC's if you have the tech.
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:11 PM #244
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play teams, you learn a lot of quick aggression builds as well as how to easily defend them

took that into 1v1's and went from silver to plat after thinking i was "forever silver" for the longest time
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:17 PM #245
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I quit bc I hated having teamates who just sucked. At least in 1v1, if I lose, I can only blame myself and I can watch the replay to see how I can get better.

Team games are fun for big engagements, but it's kind of a crapshoot if you get a partner who just blows diggidy.

My biggest problem right now seems to be toss more than Zerg actually. My win % against Zerg is fine, and I have a solid build vs. Terran.

Toss ball of templar, archon, zealot, stalker, sentry is kind of faaaccckkk for me right now. I know Ghost EMP helps and solid kiting micro with stim and medivacs, but I still find myself getting owned pretty hard.
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:18 PM #246
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drops man, drops.

and have you tried going heavy marauder? makes storms much more bearable.
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:23 PM #247
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I quit bc I hated having teamates who just sucked. At least in 1v1, if I lose, I can only blame myself and I can watch the replay to see how I can get better.

Team games are fun for big engagements, but it's kind of a crapshoot if you get a partner who just blows diggidy.
It's funny how it works, Most people start playing with friends in team games, then play 1v1, then you go back to team games because the moral of the story is this is a game, to be played for fun. When your cheesing and raping it's fun, doesn't take much skill, but it's fun with your friends nonetheless. Team games to me are about having fun after getting raped in 1v1. If you ever hang out in some of the other chat channels (\_(ツ)_/ for instance) all those guys are now dedicated team players. They just want every placement to show masters on their profile, so it's a crapshoot playing with different people until they get that masters rank. That doesn't include the select group of guys that are always top 8 masters 2v2, 3v3, 4v4.
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:24 PM #248
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1. I was referring to the person you quoted, MadGoat. I had no idea what race you play. The irony being you quoted a guy who said that muta's have a specific purpose, (which I believe is to be annoying as **** and IMBA) and he switched races to use it.

2. Never played BW online, just campaign mode, so can't comment there. I dont think Mutas not only don't have a hard counter, I think they get abused for their usefullness. There really isn't a counter to 25-50 mutas attacking mineral lines so long as you are terran or toss.
I actually switched races for two reasons:
1)I had planned on playing zerg from the start, but had no previous RTS experience outside of CC Red Alert way back in the day so I started with terran just to get used to the game.
2)I never had a real problem vs mutas, my problems were vs. late game zerg and protoss armies, but mostly just protoss.
3)If you think mutas are imba, play as zerg against a terran who constantly attacks with marines starting at like 3 minutes. Or try playing against a protoss as zerg when you're on 5-6 bases to their 2-3 and still can't kill their deathball. Its not imba, it just requires you to play differently/better than you are used to.

As a zerg player you basically have two tech routes: ling/bling(mostly just vs T)/roach(mostly just vs p) into muta into infestor/bl or ling/bling/roach into infestor into bl.

As somebody who's not very good, I will attest to the fact that skipping mutas directly into infestors is a harder style to play so I go for mutas.

What you're leaving out from your analysis of mutas is that they are expensive and fragile. If you build some turrets and leave a group of marines back at home you greatly decrease the damage they do. If there were ways that made it fairly reasonable for people to stop mutas from doing anything, than why would anybody ever make mutas? If you're trying to stop mutas from doing any damage, you're not playing the game right. A flock of 25 mutas is 2500/2500, that's not cheap. The zerg player HAS to do reasonable damage and/or keep you contained to two bases for awhile or their chances of winning go down the toilet. The point isn't to kill all the mutas at once, its to kill a few here and there and damage the rest so next time they come back they do less and less until finally they melt to stimmed marines. The longer the zerg player delays their tech to keep building mutas the better off you *should* be because mutas are bad late game units.
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:30 PM #249
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see, madgoat pretty much elaborated on what I said earlier, zerg units are weak and need to be constantly resupplied, this is where the non-zerg player needs to seek his advantage.
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:31 PM #250
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drops man, drops.

and have you tried going heavy marauder? makes storms much more bearable.
Yeah, I think I may try that tonight. Maurader, Ghost, Medivac, viking. Is that even a build? lol. Seems like a low dps build..
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:49 PM #251
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This thread actually has people posting!
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:49 PM #252
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I feel like as long as you don't make too many vikings, you should be fine.

And mix marines into your composition, you still need them for **** like those annoying zealots, archons (cuz marauders don't do bonus damage) and immortals.

Pretty much have an equal number of marauders as rines or have 3 marauders for every 2 rines.

I see too many people with an even number of tachlab rax and reactor rax or people with just way too much reactor rax.

you should have 2 techlab rax for every reactor rax, or even 3 techlabbed rax if you're building ghosts.
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