Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-07-2012, 05:24 AM #211
MattDamnited
They mad.
 
MattDamnited's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Kentucky
Every game I ****ing lose is because my teammate is literally retarded and has the lowest score.
__________________
MattDamnited is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 06:28 AM #212
MattDamnited
They mad.
 
MattDamnited's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Kentucky
Finally.
__________________
MattDamnited is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 09:00 AM #213
Matt.is.back2011
#IBelieve
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drowning In My Sleep View Post
thank god someone actually understands.
Coming from a Zerg player who self proclaims that winning long extended TvZ was too difficult, so therefore he switched to the easier race.


Certainly sounds like he gets it.


If Mutas are used for harass, then I think it's safe to assume that they are BY FAR the most OP and imbalanced harassing unit in the game. Helions quit being useful after the first 4 minutes of a game and only work in TvZ anymore, reapers quit being used after the nerf back in 2010, and DT's are mostly used as a trick gimmick play to throw off the opponent, and after an initial use, detection goes up and they quit being useful.

Mutas not only harass, but can completely dictate how the match can play out on the Zerg's terms; no other harassing unit can say that.

When I watch pro players constantly blinking around their base with stalkers to protect mineral lines and marines stimming back and forth to do the same, I think to myself, "wow, this is about as dumb as watching a zerg get owned by blue flamed hellions within 5 minutes of a game, pre-nerfing of the dps; One race seems to have a clear advantage with the current setup of the game."

I'm not saying Mutas need removed, but when you have maps where even Pro players will drone, d-up, mass mutas and harass to victory against Terran and Protoss, AND you have new units coming out to directly counter this type of play, I think one can take a longer look at the unit's role in the game to determine if it's OP.
__________________
THE OHIO STATE
Class of 2011

Last edited by Matt.is.back2011 : 02-07-2012 at 09:04 AM.
Matt.is.back2011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 09:01 AM #214
Matt.is.back2011
#IBelieve
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattDamnited View Post
Every game I ****ing lose is because my teammate is literally retarded and has the lowest score.
That's why you're the only one who plays 2v2 on here (predominantly)....the rest of us realized that a long time ago and switched to 1v1.
__________________
THE OHIO STATE
Class of 2011
Matt.is.back2011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 11:07 AM #215
madgoat
Troll_Extraordinaire
 
madgoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Homewood, IL
madgoat has achieved Level 3 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt.is.back2011 View Post
Coming from a Zerg player who self proclaims that winning long extended TvZ was too difficult, so therefore he switched to the easier race.


Certainly sounds like he gets it.


If Mutas are used for harass, then I think it's safe to assume that they are BY FAR the most OP and imbalanced harassing unit in the game. Helions quit being useful after the first 4 minutes of a game and only work in TvZ anymore, reapers quit being used after the nerf back in 2010, and DT's are mostly used as a trick gimmick play to throw off the opponent, and after an initial use, detection goes up and they quit being useful.

Mutas not only harass, but can completely dictate how the match can play out on the Zerg's terms; no other harassing unit can say that.

When I watch pro players constantly blinking around their base with stalkers to protect mineral lines and marines stimming back and forth to do the same, I think to myself, "wow, this is about as dumb as watching a zerg get owned by blue flamed hellions within 5 minutes of a game, pre-nerfing of the dps; One race seems to have a clear advantage with the current setup of the game."

I'm not saying Mutas need removed, but when you have maps where even Pro players will drone, d-up, mass mutas and harass to victory against Terran and Protoss, AND you have new units coming out to directly counter this type of play, I think one can take a longer look at the unit's role in the game to determine if it's OP.
Yea, mutas are good at what they do, but they are also pretty useless once storm/thors come out. Also, without mutas, Zerg has no way to harass a turtling protoss or terran player. If you think mutas are so easy, why don't you play zerg and use them and tell me how useful they are ~20 minutes into the game vs HT's, mass blink stalkers, 2/2 stim marines, a few thors, etc....

Not to mention, turrets and cannons are also pretty damn effective vs mutas.

Mutas allow the zerg player the map control to expand and get to the late game so terran and protoss can't just a move on 2 bases.
__________________
Honey Badger University Professor of Women Studies, Dean of Student Affairs

Last edited by madgoat : 02-07-2012 at 11:14 AM.
madgoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 11:44 AM #216
Guitarharris
 
 
Guitarharris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chehalis, Washington
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt.is.back2011 View Post
When I watch pro players constantly blinking around their base with stalkers to protect mineral lines and marines stimming back and forth to do the same, I think to myself, "wow, this is about as dumb as watching a zerg get owned by blue flamed hellions within 5 minutes of a game, pre-nerfing of the dps; One race seems to have a clear advantage with the current setup of the game."
It's a huge risk going muta, where as if he makes 4 hellions and can get a huge advantage EZ (low risk, easy scouting, huge success rate). DT's are priceless in late game against zurg. If muta is played properly yes, it can be very frustrating. My favorite aspect of the muta is time buying, I'm not too ballsy to lose all my mutas, but to buy time and get 7/8 gases then I'm in a good spot to tech switch unless I want to go 2 spire upgraded muta.
__________________
MDT
xlSaltydoglx.613 SCII
-Tardarm- "We live together, We die together, ST for life"
Feedback +5/-0 http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...t=guitarharris

Last edited by Guitarharris : 02-07-2012 at 11:48 AM.
Guitarharris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 11:51 AM #217
Matt.is.back2011
#IBelieve
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitarharris View Post
It's a huge risk going muta, where as if he makes 4 hellions and can get a huge advantage EZ (low risk, easy scouting, huge success rate). DT's are priceless in late game against zurg. If muta is played properly yes, it can be very frustrating. My favorite aspect of the muta is time buying, I'm not too ballsy to lose all my mutas, but to buy time and get 7/8 gases then I'm in a good spot to tech switch unless I want to go 2 spire upgraded muta
Such a huge risk, that literally everyone does it.

And like I said, DT's are good when first used, and then a detection goes up and they no longer get warped in. The average minerals and time spent making reapers, dt's, and hellions, is in such contrast to that of mutas, it's not even worth comparing.

Also, Mutas hardly ever get made in ZvZ because, gasp, zerg's actually have a counter to it (unlike T+P). Fungal Growth will halt a Muta swarm in it's track(literally), and a tech switch should happen, which is exactly how the game should be played.

Terran and Protoss just have to do their best to either:

1. Attack early and prevent it from happening
2. Rely on drops/warp ins to pull them back into the game if Muta swarm has taken over
3. Continue to make blink stalkers and marines while the zerg player laughs and continues to macro up.

/OP

Edit: Watched a game yesterday between Quantic Gaming and Moussports. Some guy averaged around 35-50 mutas the entire game. And these were pro players, so it's not like the Toss player didn't harass or prevent bases. It was simply a large map with a lot of easily exposed expo's that Mutas can harass endlessly. The whole time I kept thinking, "this is so ****ing gay. Straight up, the Protoss wins this game. But he can't move past his expo's without one of his 4+ bases being obliterated by a muta swarm."

I guess my point being, yeah, I figured guys in Gold and Plat (who aren't really good) to abuse this stupid unit bc heaven forbid you actually get good at micro or macroing. But when I saw pro players doing it as well, this is just dumb as hell...
__________________
THE OHIO STATE
Class of 2011

Last edited by Matt.is.back2011 : 02-07-2012 at 11:57 AM.
Matt.is.back2011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 12:00 PM #218
Matt.is.back2011
#IBelieve
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by madgoat View Post
Yea, mutas are good at what they do, but they are also pretty useless once storm/thors come out. Also, without mutas, Zerg has no way to harass a turtling protoss or terran player. If you think mutas are so easy, why don't you play zerg and use them and tell me how useful they are ~20 minutes into the game vs HT's, mass blink stalkers, 2/2 stim marines, a few thors, etc....

Not to mention, turrets and cannons are also pretty damn effective vs mutas.

Mutas allow the zerg player the map control to expand and get to the late game so terran and protoss can't just a move on 2 bases.
Stoms are susceptible to misclicks and Thors can be magic boxed. You're right, they are decent counters to it, but their one huge disadvantage is that they are SLOW AS HELL in comparison to Mutas, and they are constrained by the layout of the map, whereas Mutas can fly and pick off workers at any expo at will.

The infestor with fungal growth is the only unit that can directly counter mutalisks successfully enough to warrant a tech switch from a player who is abusing them.
__________________
THE OHIO STATE
Class of 2011
Matt.is.back2011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 12:03 PM #219
Guitarharris
 
 
Guitarharris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chehalis, Washington
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt.is.back2011 View Post
2. Rely on drops/warp ins to pull them back into the game if Muta swarm has taken over
You wouldn't use drops if he went muta... that is one of the reasons to use mutas vs t. Of course it's a huge risk going muta. You have to spine up heavily and immediately harass or you will easily die. It sounds like you have some frustration with zurg... Edit: I think your talking about destiny's baserace game?
__________________
MDT
xlSaltydoglx.613 SCII
-Tardarm- "We live together, We die together, ST for life"
Feedback +5/-0 http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...t=guitarharris
Guitarharris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 12:09 PM #220
Guitarharris
 
 
Guitarharris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chehalis, Washington
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt.is.back2011 View Post
I guess my point being, yeah, I figured guys in Gold and Plat (who aren't really good) to abuse this stupid unit bc heaven forbid you actually get good at micro or macroing. But when I saw pro players doing it as well, this is just dumb as hell...
FTFY
Going muta is one of the best ways to practice macro/micro rehotkeying units. It's hugely apm intensive and you must respond correctly
__________________
MDT
xlSaltydoglx.613 SCII
-Tardarm- "We live together, We die together, ST for life"
Feedback +5/-0 http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...t=guitarharris
Guitarharris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 12:18 PM #221
Eldaer
The Gentleman
 
Eldaer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Chicago, IL
Annual Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Eldaer is playing at Living Legends VI
Eldaer owns a Planet Eclipse Lv1
Eldaer supports Team VICIOUS
Eldaer posts videos on PbNation
Eldaer has perfected Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
SC2 and paintball isn't the most logical mix, so I'm super glad to find out there are others like me on PBN
__________________
Old Feedback. +17/-0
Eldaer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 12:20 PM #222
Guitarharris
 
 
Guitarharris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chehalis, Washington
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldaer View Post
SC2 and paintball isn't the most logical mix, so I'm super glad to find out there are others like me on PBN
Check Teamliquid.net for tournies/prostreams/strategy
Check reddit.com/r/starcraft/ for SC news
Welcome
__________________
MDT
xlSaltydoglx.613 SCII
-Tardarm- "We live together, We die together, ST for life"
Feedback +5/-0 http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...t=guitarharris
Guitarharris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 12:22 PM #223
madgoat
Troll_Extraordinaire
 
madgoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Homewood, IL
madgoat has achieved Level 3 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt.is.back2011 View Post
Such a huge risk, that literally everyone does it.

And like I said, DT's are good when first used, and then a detection goes up and they no longer get warped in. The average minerals and time spent making reapers, dt's, and hellions, is in such contrast to that of mutas, it's not even worth comparing.

Also, Mutas hardly ever get made in ZvZ because, gasp, zerg's actually have a counter to it (unlike T+P). Fungal Growth will halt a Muta swarm in it's track(literally), and a tech switch should happen, which is exactly how the game should be played.

Terran and Protoss just have to do their best to either:

1. Attack early and prevent it from happening
2. Rely on drops/warp ins to pull them back into the game if Muta swarm has taken over
3. Continue to make blink stalkers and marines while the zerg player laughs and continues to macro up.

/OP

Edit: Watched a game yesterday between Quantic Gaming and Moussports. Some guy averaged around 35-50 mutas the entire game. And these were pro players, so it's not like the Toss player didn't harass or prevent bases. It was simply a large map with a lot of easily exposed expo's that Mutas can harass endlessly. The whole time I kept thinking, "this is so ****ing gay. Straight up, the Protoss wins this game. But he can't move past his expo's without one of his 4+ bases being obliterated by a muta swarm."

I guess my point being, yeah, I figured guys in Gold and Plat (who aren't really good) to abuse this stupid unit bc heaven forbid you actually get good at micro or macroing. But when I saw pro players doing it as well, this is just dumb as hell...
Actually, if you played zerg you'd know mutas are pretty common in ZvZ, and have been the past 2-3 months even at the pro level. The reason Protoss players struggle so much against mutas is probably because they were very rarely used against toss until fairly recently. I've seen plenty of games where a prepared protoss player completely shuts down mutas and I've played against toss who've shut down my mutas. Mutas are also terrible in straight up engagements and if you don't do enough damage with them you pretty much auto lose to a protoss once they get a third up. At least in my experience.
__________________
Honey Badger University Professor of Women Studies, Dean of Student Affairs

Last edited by madgoat : 02-07-2012 at 12:25 PM.
madgoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 12:37 PM #224
Matt.is.back2011
#IBelieve
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitarharris View Post
You wouldn't use drops if he went muta... that is one of the reasons to use mutas vs t. Of course it's a huge risk going muta. You have to spine up heavily and immediately harass or you will easily die. It sounds like you have some frustration with zurg... Edit: I think your talking about destiny's baserace game?
No it was Moussports vs. Quantic gaming. they took the video down off of the IPL website to make room for new ones. I wanted to watch Quntic bc they play EG tonight, so I was just trying to gauge how EG's chances are against them. Not good from what I can tell; Moussports only narrowly won, and EG is having a terrible start to the year.

And I don't really get frustrated against zerg, I just get frustrated with that unit/build. Most units can be countered successfully with the right unit composition; Mutas, to me, are more of a head scratcher that I think the best way to fix would be to nerf their speed slightly.
__________________
THE OHIO STATE
Class of 2011
Matt.is.back2011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 01:05 PM #225
MaTtBoy-II
ohai thar
 
MaTtBoy-II's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Vancouver, BC
 has been a member for 10 years
Itt: a lot of people not knowing what they're talking about.

Using mutas to contain, harass and buy time has been a common role/tactic since JulyZerg came around in BroodWar. Like mad goat said; they prevent the Zerg from getting totally steamrolled by two base Protoss and Terran play, and buy them time to get their third base (generally speaking, Zerg needs to be one base ahead of T or P to be even).

Mutas arent even supposed to win you the game; they're supposed to allow the Zerg to get his 5th/6th gas so then he can get the ground army and upgrades he needs. Losing the game straight up to muta harass is a reflection on you as a player, not the mutalisk unit.
__________________
"Originally posted by elTwitcho
You have taught me all I know and have made me the wise man which you see before you today MaTtBoy, Thankyou."
"Originally posted by SecretAsianMan
You truly are the funniest poster on ST MaTt."
"Originally posted by SquirrelMaster
You are my master, MaTtBoy."
That's a negative Ghostrider, the pattern is full.
MaTtBoy-II is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 01:56 PM #226
Guitarharris
 
 
Guitarharris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chehalis, Washington
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaTtBoy-II View Post
Itt: a lot of people not knowing what they're talking about.

Using mutas to contain, harass and buy time has been a common role/tactic since JulyZerg came around in BroodWar.
Exactly.
One of the main counters that has become so popularized since kiwi vs stephano is the archon toilet. The mothership and HT has become a necessity vs zurg air. It really comes down to reaction speed, most toss will leave a couple HT in each expo, and it comes down to landing those storms before they are sniped by the mutas.
__________________
MDT
xlSaltydoglx.613 SCII
-Tardarm- "We live together, We die together, ST for life"
Feedback +5/-0 http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...t=guitarharris
Guitarharris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 02:04 PM #227
Drowning In My Sleep
< HAWTNESS
 
Drowning In My Sleep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Drowning In My Sleep helped look for balloons
Drowning In My Sleep plays in the APPA D4 division
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt.is.back2011 View Post
Coming from a Zerg player who self proclaims that winning long extended TvZ was too difficult, so therefore he switched to the easier race.


Certainly sounds like he gets it.

I play random dude... get off your high horse

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt.is.back2011 View Post
That's why you're the only one who plays 2v2 on here (predominantly)....the rest of us realized that a long time ago and switched to 1v1.
team games are so much more fun than 1v1's.


ps. Having no real hard counter for mutas is actually pretty nice and I wish units had no real hard-counter. It brings us back to the days of Brood War where there was no real hard-counter to any unit. Right now, the direction of the game is a a super fast paced rock, paper, scissor match because every unit has a hard counter.
__________________
HoLeeSheet.444 <- SCII

Goodbye mom. You were a great mom and an even better friend. I love you mom.

Last edited by Drowning In My Sleep : 02-07-2012 at 02:09 PM.
Drowning In My Sleep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 02:28 PM #228
Matt.is.back2011
#IBelieve
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drowning In My Sleep View Post
I play random dude... get off your high horse



team games are so much more fun than 1v1's.


ps. Having no real hard counter for mutas is actually pretty nice and I wish units had no real hard-counter. It brings us back to the days of Brood War where there was no real hard-counter to any unit. Right now, the direction of the game is a a super fast paced rock, paper, scissor match because every unit has a hard counter.
1. I was referring to the person you quoted, MadGoat. I had no idea what race you play. The irony being you quoted a guy who said that muta's have a specific purpose, (which I believe is to be annoying as **** and IMBA) and he switched races to use it.

2. Never played BW online, just campaign mode, so can't comment there. I dont think Mutas not only don't have a hard counter, I think they get abused for their usefullness. There really isn't a counter to 25-50 mutas attacking mineral lines so long as you are terran or toss.
__________________
THE OHIO STATE
Class of 2011

Last edited by Matt.is.back2011 : 02-07-2012 at 02:48 PM.
Matt.is.back2011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 02:31 PM #229
Matt.is.back2011
#IBelieve
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaTtBoy-II View Post
Itt: a lot of people not knowing what they're talking about.

Using mutas to contain, harass and buy time has been a common role/tactic since JulyZerg came around in BroodWar. Like mad goat said; they prevent the Zerg from getting totally steamrolled by two base Protoss and Terran play, and buy them time to get their third base (generally speaking, Zerg needs to be one base ahead of T or P to be even).

Mutas arent even supposed to win you the game; they're supposed to allow the Zerg to get his 5th/6th gas so then he can get the ground army and upgrades he needs. Losing the game straight up to muta harass is a reflection on you as a player, not the mutalisk unit.
1. I'm fine with their role with providing Zerg some breathing room, I just think they are slightly OP right now due to their versatility, speed, and ability to provide map control favors the zerg in a way that no other unit in the game does. It's why they get used as heavily as they do.

2. Are you suggesting players who aren't very good lose to a mutalisk swarm?
__________________
THE OHIO STATE
Class of 2011
Matt.is.back2011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 03:15 PM #230
Matt.is.back2011
#IBelieve
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by setircopyH View Post
lol shut the **** up then

would you like to give a zerg any other options against a toss or terran? hydras are ****ing useless as are corruptors until you have spire, so that leaves you infestor roach ling, which isnt that great against tanks and colossus
I'm sorry, did you have a point? The protoss player lost convincingly....

Yeah, I'd like to see hydras and ultras become more useful/buffed as units, and I'd like to see Muta's be nerfed on speed.
__________________
THE OHIO STATE
Class of 2011
Matt.is.back2011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 03:21 PM #231
Matt.is.back2011
#IBelieve
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by setircopyH View Post
you literally just said the protoss won

what league are you in?
I said, "straight up, the protoss wins." As in, if the two armies faced each other head-to-head, the protoss should win. But he ended up losing due to constant Muta harassment until he literally starved himself out of the game.

I thought that was pretty clear.

I'm in Gold league top 5, but that's irrelevent, as I've stated numerous times that i've seen this play style (muta swarm) from rookie zergs all the way up to professional gamers. I think it can be improved.
__________________
THE OHIO STATE
Class of 2011
Matt.is.back2011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump