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Old 12-01-2011, 02:34 PM #22
tlmiller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardMacdonald View Post
Good point, I've been rocking a vlocity since before the rotors came out, do the job just as well and lighter too. People complain about battery usage, but seriously, who doesn't replace battery's after every day in use?
I haven't changed batteries in a few years now (use rechargeables).
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Old 12-01-2011, 03:40 PM #23
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I don't know how many cases I have shot since getting my rotor and I have YET to replace the batteries. Anyway...still going strong on the same set of 3 AA batteries.

I tend to be a front/middle player and to me how I play the game is more important that the gun I use. I have played some very serious (non tourney) games and dominated with my old A5 against good players (not noobs) with big name guns. I've lost to them too. Everyone knows how that goes! However a crappy gun is a hindrance to your game while a decent gun will certainly NOT hurt it either. BTW my A5 is far from "stock".
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Old 12-02-2011, 06:49 AM #24
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Has anyone tried those new NIMH batteries that have recently come out? They have really excellent storage life and better current ratings than the older NIMH rechargables?
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Old 12-02-2011, 07:41 AM #25
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No offense to anyone else but I think Throwdown94 by far offered the best answer to the OP. Simply put in most cases you do get a better product with the higher end guns. Whether you buy it new when it first comes out or buy it used 2 or 3 years later. They are designed not just to be more stable in terms of consistency and efficiency WITHOUT the need for upgrades or aftermarket parts. The are designed to require far less maintenance (well most of them).
Now people can argue forever about the price tag. Whether or not its worth it and what you are paying for but bottomline is, for the most part, you do get what you pay for. No company is going to offer you the same level of goods and services as their high end competitors at half the price just to spare your pockets. ESPECIALLY not in our capitalist country. Anyone who thinks different is ignorant to how this world works.
So at the end of the day you may have a decent working marker that fulfills all of your requirements but it still will not be quite the same quality as the higher ends.
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Old 12-02-2011, 08:07 AM #26
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Originally Posted by rkenders View Post
Has anyone tried those new NIMH batteries that have recently come out? They have really excellent storage life and better current ratings than the older NIMH rechargables?
I have NiZn AA's for my Prophecy & Too. AWESOME rechargeables, and cheap.

I have 8.4v 325 MaH NiMH 9V's for my markers. Best battery life from NiMH, but being only 8.4v, some markers aren't TOTALLY happy.

I have 9v 600 MaH LiIon for my hoppers. These are brand spanking new, have never even gotten to use them.

My old batteries are 230 MaH 9.6v NiMH 9V's for my hoppers. They're still the newer generation, and work wonderfully.

All 3 types of 9V batteries now work fantastic, and have very little self-discharge. LiIon obviously lasts the longest (should anyway since I haven't gotten to actually test), and provides the same voltage as Alkaline. But the NiMH 325's last a long time, and are fantastic. I love them.
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Old 12-02-2011, 01:34 PM #27
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HIGGGH END GUNS why you so high end?

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Old 12-02-2011, 01:37 PM #28
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8 years to reach this ground breaking hypothesis as to why you're too hipster to own high end markers?

son I am disappoint
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Old 12-02-2011, 03:10 PM #29
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8 years to reach this ground breaking hypothesis as to why you're too hipster to own high end markers?

son I am disappoint
I think that very expensive PB guns are a misuse of capital. I would buy an expensive gun used so that I could cut the cost down. If you read what I wrote I asked legitimate questions so that rather than getting trash comments I would get informed comments. Do you have any informed comments or are you here just to clutter up this thread?
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Old 12-03-2011, 11:26 AM #30
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Originally Posted by rkenders View Post
I tend to be a front/middle player and to me how I play the game is more important that the gun I use. I have played some very serious (non tourney) games and dominated with my old A5 against good players (not noobs) with big name guns. I've lost to them too. Everyone knows how that goes! However a crappy gun is a hindrance to your game while a decent gun will certainly NOT hurt it either. BTW my A5 is far from "stock".
Not to be an *** but it can hardly be serious if you have to say not tourney and remind us it was against good players. Further more I'm highly skeptical of the skill level of those players considering nearly every good player only plays at practice against other good teams (or their higher up team, whichever) therefore hardly has time or money for recball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhawkins View Post
8 years to reach this ground breaking hypothesis as to why you're too hipster to own high end markers?

son I am disappoint
He has a fairly solid point. It seems like you come up with a bunch of hipster reasons to justify buying a mediocre gun. Seeing things like

strategy is important, more so than which gun you shoot
crap guns are a handicap
Stock barrels are good only IF you have paint that matches.

it's just like

....we know. Not to mention the last statement is pretty one sided. The majority of paint these days is about .685-.688. A .688 barrel will shoot anything alright and a .685 barrel will shoot tourney paint (typically smaller) perfectly. The big IF is generally an always. You'd be better off with 1 tip and 2 barrel backs, everyone who bought a freak in the early 2000s realized they only used one or two inserts anyway.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:41 AM #31
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Originally Posted by tlmiller View Post
I have NiZn AA's for my Prophecy & Too. AWESOME rechargeables, and cheap.

I have 8.4v 325 MaH NiMH 9V's for my markers. Best battery life from NiMH, but being only 8.4v, some markers aren't TOTALLY happy.

I have 9v 600 MaH LiIon for my hoppers. These are brand spanking new, have never even gotten to use them.

My old batteries are 230 MaH 9.6v NiMH 9V's for my hoppers. They're still the newer generation, and work wonderfully.

All 3 types of 9V batteries now work fantastic, and have very little self-discharge. LiIon obviously lasts the longest (should anyway since I haven't gotten to actually test), and provides the same voltage as Alkaline. But the NiMH 325's last a long time, and are fantastic. I love them.
I've read that NiZN batteries have poor charge cycles. They grow dendrites that short the cell out quicker than nicad's. There is a company (powergenix) that claims to have overcome the problem. I wonder if the chinese NiZn cells have too. The 1.6 volts per cell and greater amp hours is attractive. I wonder what kind of shelf life they have. Nicad and Nimh cells run down pretty quick just sitting there. Li-ion and LIPO cells have really good shelf life for a rechargables.

Currently I'm working on a project where I use 3 li-ion AAA cells, a charge controller and 9 volt regulator to make a rechargeable replacement for the good old 9 volt battery. There are several 9 volt li-ion batteries out there, but they all deliver 8.4 volts which is a little lean. Anything that is picky about voltage is going to have problems with 8.4 volts. A 3 or 4 cell design would deliver 11.1-14.8 volts to the 9v regulator. My battery pack wont be cheap, but it will deliver 9 volts guaranteed. I'm also working on a rechargeable li-ion pack for the Rotor. 14500 cells are physically the same size as an AA battery and deliver 1200mAh. 2 14500 cells would fit in the Rotor battery tray and deliver 7.4 volts with a 3rd "fake" battery to regulate the voltage back down to 4.5 volts or whatever. The design could be used on anything that uses AA style batteries. Rotors are so good on battery use, you may be able to get by with recharging once or twice a year.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:01 PM #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlmiller View Post
I have NiZn AA's for my Prophecy & Too. AWESOME rechargeables, and cheap.

I have 8.4v 325 MaH NiMH 9V's for my markers. Best battery life from NiMH, but being only 8.4v, some markers aren't TOTALLY happy.

I have 9v 600 MaH LiIon for my hoppers. These are brand spanking new, have never even gotten to use them.

My old batteries are 230 MaH 9.6v NiMH 9V's for my hoppers. They're still the newer generation, and work wonderfully.

All 3 types of 9V batteries now work fantastic, and have very little self-discharge. LiIon obviously lasts the longest (should anyway since I haven't gotten to actually test), and provides the same voltage as Alkaline. But the NiMH 325's last a long time, and are fantastic. I love them.
I've read that NiZN batteries have poor charge cycles. They grow dendrites that short the cell out quicker than nicad's. There is a company (powergenix) that claims to have overcome the problem. I wonder if the chinese NiZn cells have too. The 1.6 volts per cell and greater amp hours is attractive. I wonder what kind of shelf life they have. Nicad and Nimh cells run down pretty quick just sitting there. Li-ion and LIPO cells have really good shelf life for a rechargables.

Currently I'm working on a project where I use 3 li-ion 10440 AAA cells, a charge controller and 9 volt regulator to make a rechargeable replacement for the good old 9 volt battery. It will look just like a 9 volt battery but with a small internal switch on it so the battery clip can be used for charging. There are several 9 volt li-ion batteries out there, but they all deliver 8.4 volts which is a little lean. Anything that is picky about voltage is going to have problems with 8.4 volts. A 3 or 4 cell design would deliver 11.1-14.8 volts to the 9v regulator. My 9 volt battery pack wont be cheap, but it will deliver 9 volts guaranteed at 600mah. All those power hungry hoppers out there that need 2 9 volt batteries to run would run for a very long time. I'm also working on a rechargeable li-ion pack for the Rotor. 14500 cells are physically the same size as an AA battery and deliver 1200mAh. 2 14500 cells would fit in the Rotor battery tray and deliver 7.4 volts with a 3rd "fake" battery to regulate the voltage back down to 4.5 volts or whatever. The design could be used on anything that uses AA style batteries. Rotors are so good on battery use, you may be able to get by with recharging once or twice a year.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:09 PM #33
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The 9v Li-Ion that I use the manufacturer specs say are TRUE 9V, not 8.4V. 600 MaH.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:14 PM #34
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Just a reminder to everyone who has commented in this thread. I created it so that I would get comments about high end vs lower end guns. Of course I have mentioned battery designs and other things too.

Regarding players...
There are people who enjoy rec ball, x-ball and any other form of PB they can play. I'm one of them. As a result you will find that on any particular field you play at that there are a mix of noobs to so called professional players. It isn't too difficult to get good players together and play a solid game that is as good as a professional game.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:15 PM #35
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The 9v Li-Ion that I use the manufacturer specs say are TRUE 9V, not 8.4V. 600 MaH.
Post who makes true 9v li-ion cells. I don't have to make my own.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:23 PM #36
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Crap guns ARE a handicap. Rental vibe kept shutting down on me in critical moments of certain games with high end markers. I would destroy people when it was working. But when it died, I could of just as easily eliminated the entire team with a working pump marker, than anything else. I had the dude bunkered blind but my damn vibe shutdown right there. If it would just shoot just a few damn balls; no matter how cockeyed, everyone on that team would be gone. I sat there fiddling with the trigger and the on button for 15 seconds before the dude realized I was behind him 10 feet away. The battery was dead of course, but if it was my own marker, it would of never happened. I felt like drop kicking the POS through a field goal at that moment.

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Old 12-04-2011, 12:40 PM #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkenders View Post
Regarding players...
There are people who enjoy rec ball, x-ball and any other form of PB they can play. I'm one of them. As a result you will find that on any particular field you play at that there are a mix of noobs to so called professional players. It isn't too difficult to get good players together and play a solid game that is as good as a professional game.


Rec ball teams, even if there are a few "so called professional players" (which I'm willing to bet there aren't), will never be as good as a game between 2 decent teams that know how to play together, let alone 2 professional teams.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:56 PM #38
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Things I have seen that ARE better about "high end" guns:

1. They tend to have somewhat better efficiency. Some have a lot better efficiency than the G4. However I don't have a techt bolt yet either and I know that it improves efficiency on the G4. $1000 can buy me a lot of air refills. Is an extra pod or 2 of paint when games rarely last long enough to run out of air really worth $1000 more?
High end guns TEND to be better than low and mid range guns. However, you still get the spool vs poppit issue. G4s are spool valves, so they are naturally less air efficient. As, while you can just refill whenever, during some games, you can run out of air. I would usually equate this to a back player with a spool and a small tank. Not really the best situation.

Quote:
2. Some "high end" guns have an HPR and LPR which should help with more consistent velocity. Not all "high end" guns have an HPR/LPR so why not just buy one of those HPR's and put it on my G4 if it is so much better? That would be $300 plus $50 or $60 for the HPR. How good is good enough? Considering that a really long ball is in the air maybe 2 seconds, is a few 100 milliseconds either way really worth $1000? Considering the velocity consistency of the G4 compaired to other guns is that small difference worth $1000?
Consistency can be VERY important. If the max speed is 290, I want to be able to set my gun at 290. If I have to set it at 280 because the variance is +/- 10, then that means I might be shooting 290 with one shot, then 270 with the next, which could, theoretically, make or break a game.

Quote:
3. "High end" guns tend to be prettier than "low end" guns. The anno work and milling does tend to look nicer on more expensive guns. If I'm in a heated battle with you and my gun looks boring, while your gun looks really cool, does that mean you are going to win and I'm going to get shot out? I don't think either one of us really cares about how our gun looks while we're trying to shoot each other. If I shoot somebody with a $1000 gun that has cool anno and mill work, does that make it less cool? Does it make the gun $1000 better in a battle?
Anno and milling are just personal preference. I have a G3 Spec R (what the G4 is based on) and I really like the milling. Sure, it means nothing, and there are some high end guns that I don't like the looks on them, but this is COMPLETELY personal preference.

Quote:
4. Some "high end" guns come with OLED boards which are cool and useful. Considering that companies like Seventh Element and Virtue both make OLEd boards for the G4, is that really a selling point for the high end gun? $300 for the DP G4 plust $65 for a 7E board totals $365. What new "high end" gun with an OLED board costs $365?
You are right on this one. On one hand you can upgrade the low end gun to have features of the high end gun, on the other, the features are already put into the price of the high end gun.

Quote:
5. Some high end guns bost incredible reliability. I take my G4 apart after every day of play and clean and relube everything. Before that I did the same thing with my A5 which is still going strong after 8 years of heavy use. Looking at the G4, the only thing I will need to replace due to long term wear and tear will be o-rings and perhaps the bolt. Is that worth $1000 or more? "High end" guns will need the same type of service and parts.
You and me are the same on this. Every gun I've ever owned, within 48 hours I am taking the gun apart and maintaining it. However, there are people who do not do this. They treat their guns like a tippmann 98. For some people, this is important. Also, there are other parts where reliability is important. What about the board malfunctioning, or solenoid dying? These are things to consider with reliability.

Quote:
6. Some "high end" guns have less recoil than "low end" guns. I wont deny that even with the zero kick techt bolt in my A5 it has a lot of recoil for a PB gun. The G4 with the stock bolt does not have any more recoil than a lot of the "high end" guns that I shot and even that tiny amount of recoil can be reduced with a $70 techt bolt kit. Is the slightly better recoil worth $1000?
This is another spool vs. poppit issue. Spools are very smooth compared to poppits. Basically, just look at the mass that is moving. With a poppit you have the bolt, the ram, and any connecting parts. With a spool, you usually just have the bolt moving.

Quote:
7. Some "high end" guns have really nice ASA's. I like the Bob Long gear drive ASA and the PE POPS ASA. The BL gear drive is kind of complicated and has a lot of parts, but it is really smooth to operate. The POPS ASA is super easy to use and works very well. Between the two I like the POPS ASA better. I got a great deal on a new POPS ASA and replaced the RAPS ASA on my DP G4. However, the RAPS ASA worked wonderfully well and gave me no problems. Is a nice ASA really worth spending $1000 extra?
This is actually just a deal from DP. They really do have great ASAs, so this is something that doesn't often apply to low/mid range guns. As for other mid range guns, they don't often have a very good ASA.

Quote:
8. Some "high end" guns come with great carrying cases. I went to a sporting goods store and bought an aluminum case for $25 that holds my G4, Rotor, barrel, tools and a few other things. It doesn't have the nice cut outs like a PE or Dye case would have, but is a nice case really worth $1000? Besides, on the field, in the middle of a battle, who cares what kind of case you have.
I somewhat care about the case, and the price is built in. PE cases are really nice, and something that is included in the upfront price. Not to mention, it is a semi-custom thing that matches your gun.

Quote:
9. Some "high end" guns have nicer "stock" barrels. It is true that IF you could find paint and could always guarantee good ball to bore fit, that the stock barrel would shoot very consistently. Most decent players get a barrel kit because we all know that paint is NEVER the same size from one day to the next never mind from different companies and different times of year. Everyone who wants good consistency, will buy a barrel kit eventually and never use the "stock" barrel again. Considering that I'll pay the same amount as you will for a barrel kit regardless of the cost of the gun, does that make it worth paying $1000 more for a "high end" gun?
Something that is included in the price of the gun. Many high end guns (PE, Dye, BL) use barrels that others buy for their guns anyway (shaft, UL, CP). Again, something that is included with the price.

Quote:
All said and done, if I wanted to do all the upgrades mentioned above that will make the G4 operate like a "high end" gun supposedly operates I would spend $70 for a bolt kit and $65 for a 7E board. Truthfully I would get the $130 7E kit so I can have the Rotor upgrade too, but that has nothing to do with the gun. That totals $300 + $70 + $65 which is $435. Even with all the upgrades that would make the G4 as good as supposedly a "high end" gun is I'm still paying less than HALF as much money as the LOW end of the "high end" price range!

I really would like legitimate answers to my questions. I DON'T want your trash talk about how I don't know what I'm talking about. Give me thought out, logical reasons that are based on real facts. It is possible that someone with an expensive PB gun may make some good points that I haven't thought of and may convince me to save up for an ego or R6G or Clone.
Here are some things to consider: A G3 Spec R was about $400. The board you mention is (lets go with the higher one) $130. So we're up to $530. TechT bolt kit is $65, so we're up to 595. Throw in an after market barrel, say around $40, we're up to 635. You found a case you like for $25, so now it is $660. Still pretty cheap compared to an Ego or NT. But now you get into reliability, consistency, and, most importantly, customer service. DP doesn't have the customer service it used to have, where PE, BL, and (somewhat) Dye have. Reliability wise, my Spec R has been great, but if it does go down, then what? And consistency wise, my Spec R just cannot be fine tuned enough to be +/- 3.

Then there is the name. Why are some clothes 5, 10, 20x more expensive than others? The name. My jeans run from $10 to $20 each, but some pay over $100 a pair! For cut and stitched together by a machine denim!

All in all, what I can say is that while my gun has been great for me, I would be more apt to trust a high end than a mid range gun. The highest that I've played for a season is D4, and the highest level I've played in open tourneys is D3, and never have I felt that my gun made a difference (and I've used mid and high ends throughout my tourney career). I personally agree with you that the gun doesn't make the player, but a gun can make a game.
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Old 12-04-2011, 01:53 PM #39
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personally I dont think the high end guns are worth the extra money up front. I am currently shoot an Empire Axe. I have shot egos, Nt's, Dm's, geo's. I am not saying that they don't shoot nice. However my axe will keep up n out do a lot of the ends for half the price. With the rof limits today. It's not like it used to be 10 years ago when the high ends could fire faster n keep your lane pinned down better. The extra money is better spent on a practice n becoming a better player. My personal belief is the player makes the gun. NOT the gun makes the player
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Old 12-04-2011, 02:00 PM #40
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Rec ball teams, even if there are a few "so called professional players" (which I'm willing to bet there aren't), will never be as good as a game between 2 decent teams that know how to play together, let alone 2 professional teams.

I agree with you that a bunch of decent players who don't practice together wont have the same "synergy" as a real team will. They don't know each other and their strengths and weaknesses. However good players play well in or out of a team.
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Old 12-04-2011, 03:33 PM #41
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Poppet VS Spool valve design question...
Just to make sure I wasn't going to say something stupid I spent the last hour looking at the designs of both and common theory of operation for both. Having worked on both designs for myself and others I am familiar with the operation of both and personally prefer the simplicity of a spoolie. Poppets tend to have more recoil due to more mass moving around inside the gun than a spool valve and tend to be more complicated.

What I don't understand is why a poppet should be more efficient than a spool or why they should have less problems with first shot drop off. Many spool valve guns have 3 or 4 o-rings that may touch the bolt. At any point in in the firing cycle only 3 are touching the bolt and then that only briefly before it goes back to two in many cases. Poppet designs tend to have o-rings on the bolt and rammer. Those o-rings which number in the 4+ range are always in contact with moving parts during the entire firing cycle. Why don't those extra o-rings make for more problems with first shot drop off or require more care and lubrication? All poppet guns that I have ever seen use air to drive the rammer. I suppose that a direct solenoid driven rammer exists, but it would eat through a 9 volt pretty quick. Some poppet guns use a spring to drive the rammer forward and then use air to reset the rammer while others use air for both the forward and back strokes. Regardless, they use air in the bolt cycling process. Why is that more air efficient that the much simpler spool valve which typically has less o-ring contact with moving parts? The spool valve design is typically moving less mass so doesn't that mean firing the gun should take less energy/air? In either the poppet or spool design you need to dump air used to drive the bolt and rammer back and forth. That "used" air is wasted once it drives the bolt and/or rammer in either case. It would seem that the lesser weight and o-ring contact of a spool valve design would be more efficient.

On further thought a spool that has it's bolt driven back and forth by a 2 way solenoid similar to how the Marq works, but with no poppet valve would be the best of both worlds. You would only need an HPR, keep the greater simplicity of a spool over poppet and have the increased efficiency. Is there a spoolie like that out there?
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Last edited by rkenders : 12-04-2011 at 04:22 PM. Reason: Additional thoughts
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Old 12-04-2011, 05:36 PM #42
rkenders
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It looks like the Dyes and Macdevs work like I'm wanting.
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