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Old 11-26-2011, 01:40 PM #1
rkenders
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Why are high end guns better?

I have played PB for 8+ years. I have dominated speedball games with a Tippman A5 running CO2 and I have been wiped out too. Recently after hours of searching for the best gun at any price I got a DP G4. It is significantly lighter, smoother, has less recoil and is more consistent than my old A5 on its best day. Since I got the G4 I have been compairing my kills and overall game play against players with "high end" guns. I have shot some "high end" guns too for comparison. I wanted to know if I had made a good decision in spending $300 rather than $800 to $1500 on a gun. All I can see is that you pay more for the name and not for amazingly better performance. I was just in a tourney and personally scored in the top 40%. There were players with ego's, dyes, bob longs or whatever that did less well than I did with my $300, "low end", stock G4 with a barrel kit.

So here's the question:
Why should I pay $1000+ for an expensive gun when a $300 gun performs so nearly identically?


Things I have seen that ARE better about "high end" guns:

1. They tend to have somewhat better efficiency. Some have a lot better efficiency than the G4. However I don't have a techt bolt yet either and I know that it improves efficiency on the G4. $1000 can buy me a lot of air refills. Is an extra pod or 2 of paint when games rarely last long enough to run out of air really worth $1000 more?

2. Some "high end" guns have an HPR and LPR which should help with more consistent velocity. Not all "high end" guns have an HPR/LPR so why not just buy one of those HPR's and put it on my G4 if it is so much better? That would be $300 plus $50 or $60 for the HPR. How good is good enough? Considering that a really long ball is in the air maybe 2 seconds, is a few 100 milliseconds either way really worth $1000? Considering the velocity consistency of the G4 compaired to other guns is that small difference worth $1000?

3. "High end" guns tend to be prettier than "low end" guns. The anno work and milling does tend to look nicer on more expensive guns. If I'm in a heated battle with you and my gun looks boring, while your gun looks really cool, does that mean you are going to win and I'm going to get shot out? I don't think either one of us really cares about how our gun looks while we're trying to shoot each other. If I shoot somebody with a $1000 gun that has cool anno and mill work, does that make it less cool? Does it make the gun $1000 better in a battle?

4. Some "high end" guns come with OLED boards which are cool and useful. Considering that companies like Seventh Element and Virtue both make OLEd boards for the G4, is that really a selling point for the high end gun? $300 for the DP G4 plust $65 for a 7E board totals $365. What new "high end" gun with an OLED board costs $365?

5. Some high end guns bost incredible reliability. I take my G4 apart after every day of play and clean and relube everything. Before that I did the same thing with my A5 which is still going strong after 8 years of heavy use. Looking at the G4, the only thing I will need to replace due to long term wear and tear will be o-rings and perhaps the bolt. Is that worth $1000 or more? "High end" guns will need the same type of service and parts.

6. Some "high end" guns have less recoil than "low end" guns. I wont deny that even with the zero kick techt bolt in my A5 it has a lot of recoil for a PB gun. The G4 with the stock bolt does not have any more recoil than a lot of the "high end" guns that I shot and even that tiny amount of recoil can be reduced with a $70 techt bolt kit. Is the slightly better recoil worth $1000?

7. Some "high end" guns have really nice ASA's. I like the Bob Long gear drive ASA and the PE POPS ASA. The BL gear drive is kind of complicated and has a lot of parts, but it is really smooth to operate. The POPS ASA is super easy to use and works very well. Between the two I like the POPS ASA better. I got a great deal on a new POPS ASA and replaced the RAPS ASA on my DP G4. However, the RAPS ASA worked wonderfully well and gave me no problems. Is a nice ASA really worth spending $1000 extra?

8. Some "high end" guns come with great carrying cases. I went to a sporting goods store and bought an aluminum case for $25 that holds my G4, Rotor, barrel, tools and a few other things. It doesn't have the nice cut outs like a PE or Dye case would have, but is a nice case really worth $1000? Besides, on the field, in the middle of a battle, who cares what kind of case you have.

9. Some "high end" guns have nicer "stock" barrels. It is true that IF you could find paint and could always guarantee good ball to bore fit, that the stock barrel would shoot very consistently. Most decent players get a barrel kit because we all know that paint is NEVER the same size from one day to the next never mind from different companies and different times of year. Everyone who wants good consistency, will buy a barrel kit eventually and never use the "stock" barrel again. Considering that I'll pay the same amount as you will for a barrel kit regardless of the cost of the gun, does that make it worth paying $1000 more for a "high end" gun?

All said and done, if I wanted to do all the upgrades mentioned above that will make the G4 operate like a "high end" gun supposedly operates I would spend $70 for a bolt kit and $65 for a 7E board. Truthfully I would get the $130 7E kit so I can have the Rotor upgrade too, but that has nothing to do with the gun. That totals $300 + $70 + $65 which is $435. Even with all the upgrades that would make the G4 as good as supposedly a "high end" gun is I'm still paying less than HALF as much money as the LOW end of the "high end" price range!

I really would like legitimate answers to my questions. I DON'T want your trash talk about how I don't know what I'm talking about. Give me thought out, logical reasons that are based on real facts. It is possible that someone with an expensive PB gun may make some good points that I haven't thought of and may convince me to save up for an ego or R6G or Clone.
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Old 11-26-2011, 04:34 PM #2
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after reading your post ill try to answer each question to the best of my ability:
1. Efficiency-Yes high end guns tend to be more efficient and too a recreational player or low level tournament player efficiency may not be that big of a deal but once you reach a higher level of competition such as d4 and up xball or d3 and up 7man you can run into long drawn out games in which yes some players will shoot 8+ pods in which case the higher efficiency is a necessity.

2.HPR and LPR-allows for the guns to be fine tuned too your liking and the guns sweet spot, on many highend guns having an lpr and hpr allow you to tune a gun to either be loud with some kick but will be a little bit more efficient or to be really smooth and quiet but a little less efficient, a perfect example of this is the dye nt which can be tuned to shoot in either of the ways mentioned above or anywhere inbetween.

3.No, the better milling and anodizing does not make the gun perform better but higher end guns tend to come with better and "thicker" anodizing which will not scratch as easily and will in turn keep the gun in better shape longer and help keep the guns resale up, better anodizing=more expensive for the company=slightly more expensive for the customer.

4.OLED boards are available through after market companies and yes some boards are improvements over others but most companies that put OLED boards in their guns stock are best fit with the best settings and best setting adjustments for the gun allowing the owner to fine tune the dwell and debounce set up for that specific gun and its optimum running settings

5.Yes some guns are easy to maintain but that does not make them as reliable necessary, higher end guns are usually made with more stable platforms and materials etc that in the long run costs the company more so once again, more expensive for company to produce=raise in cost for customer, there are many high end guns that are almost impossible to break for instance planet eclipse's ego line, full maintenance of the gun takes less than 5 minutes and even without a maintenance they will shoot great, play throw the gun in your bag and go home go play again a month, 3 months or even a year later and the gun will still shoot without being touched, simply alot of highend guns are just more key word reliable, than low end guns, most guns these days are easy to maintain. Also with these highend companies your paying for AMAZING customer service that you dont always recieve with lower end companies.

6.Kick in a paintball gun is inevitable but others have less than some and alot of highend guns have less kick than lowend ones and can be tuned to have almost zero kick, where alot of lowend guns have atleast some but this is one area where the differance is not huge.

7.Asa- again not a huge area of differance since they can usually be purchased seperately from companies as an upgrade but alot of the highend companies do have the most effective and up to date asa's on them stock as their companies are usually leading the pack in the newest technology to this sport.

8. Carrying cases-not a necessity, just something nice to help keep everything together and neat, also does help protect the gun to keep it in better shape and if the case is dropped, more then likely it wont damage the gun or its internals compared too if the gun is dropped in a cardboard box or simply without a box.

9.Yes barrel kits can be bought seperately but ones that come with guns are usually better machined for that guns threading , match the milling etc, high end companies usually tend to produce the best barrels on the market as well and having the barrel kit included is nice considering that many of the nicer barrel kits now a days sell for $100+ too have the full kit

I hope this will help with your questions.
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Old 11-26-2011, 04:55 PM #3
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Thank you for the complete response! That was really good. Anyone else?
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Old 11-26-2011, 07:12 PM #4
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I think you figured it out on your own. I have a G4 with a POPS asa, TechT bolt system, 7th Element board and upgraded laser eyes. I love it. Before the G4 I had a similarly upgraded G3 Spec-R. I loved it so much I sold my Luxe. Nothing against the Luxe (it is a great marker and quite stunning to look at) but I just preferred my Spec-R. If you like the G4, upgrade what YOU feel is worth upgrading. Since you are a tournament player I recommend getting an OLED board. It will make your life easier in the event you need/want to make a change while at the field. The TechT bolt system is a nice upgrade as well. You will be able to lower your pressure some with it and you should notice a decrease in sound and kick. A quality barrel/kit is good to invest in. There are many choices and you will get a lot of contradicting opinions. I have many (~10 barrels and 4 different kits) and I prefer the TechT iFit kit. I get nice groupings with it and I can still use my stock barrel if I want. Again, just personal preference. And by the way, the Dangerous Power section of the forums has some of the most helpful and friendly people on PbNation.
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Old 11-26-2011, 08:34 PM #5
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First off 2 important things.
1) You seem like you are considering more or less a recball environment, at minimum a tourney series without much talented or experienced teams signing up. "Speedball games" hardly mean anything. There's a huge difference between playing on a field with inflatable bunkers and practicing against a strong team on said field. A legitimate PSP national event is very different from a day at the field.

2) I don't and never would drop $1000+ on a gun. I get all my gear from friends, buying used, or from sponsors. You can get an older Proto matrix, shocker, or intimidator on here for essentially the same price or less than you bought your G4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rkenders View Post
So here's the question:
Why should I pay $1000+ for an expensive gun when a $300 gun performs so nearly identically?

Things I have seen that ARE better about "high end" guns:

1. They tend to have somewhat better efficiency. Some have a lot better efficiency than the G4. However I don't have a techt bolt yet either and I know that it improves efficiency on the G4. $1000 can buy me a lot of air refills. Is an extra pod or 2 of paint when games rarely last long enough to run out of air really worth $1000 more?

Every field I practice at doesn't charge for air fills, and neither do any tourneys. You probably won't run out of air during a game but when you have to play an xball match with 4-7 games back to back every bit of air counts. During the last points in close matches, games can last long enough with teams playing defensive and locking down lanes not to lose a deciding game so running out of air can be possible especially if you forgot or didn't have time to fill air before you had to be on the field.

2. Some "high end" guns have an HPR and LPR which should help with more consistent velocity. Not all "high end" guns have an HPR/LPR so why not just buy one of those HPR's and put it on my G4 if it is so much better? That would be $300 plus $50 or $60 for the HPR. How good is good enough? Considering that a really long ball is in the air maybe 2 seconds, is a few 100 milliseconds either way really worth $1000? Considering the velocity consistency of the G4 compaired to other guns is that small difference worth $1000?

It's not that your paint stays in the air longer. Consistency is your shots landing exactly where you want them to as much of the time as possible. A closer shot grouping over the chrono roughly equals a closer shot grouping. If you have an opportunity to shoot someone's back/pack that's exposed, you can only take 2-3 shots before they start playing tighter to avoid dying. Outside that it's nice to have the options to make your gun shoot exactly how you want it.

3. "High end" guns tend to be prettier than "low end" guns. The anno work and milling does tend to look nicer on more expensive guns. If I'm in a heated battle with you and my gun looks boring, while your gun looks really cool, does that mean you are going to win and I'm going to get shot out? I don't think either one of us really cares about how our gun looks while we're trying to shoot each other. If I shoot somebody with a $1000 gun that has cool anno and mill work, does that make it less cool? Does it make the gun $1000 better in a battle?

This is irrelevant and doesn't matter, if it's a better gun there was more effort put into building it. It's that simple.

4. Some "high end" guns come with OLED boards which are cool and useful. Considering that companies like Seventh Element and Virtue both make OLEd boards for the G4, is that really a selling point for the high end gun? $300 for the DP G4 plust $65 for a 7E board totals $365. What new "high end" gun with an OLED board costs $365?

It's the quality of the board, which settings you can adjust, and more. The stock board in any Matrix, Intimidator, Ego, etc. will always be better than a stock G4 board. I'm not an expert on electronics and how boards work but you can feel the difference. You won't miss trigger pulls, the gun will shoot much nicer, your eyes will work much better, etc.

5. Some high end guns bost incredible reliability. I take my G4 apart after every day of play and clean and relube everything. Before that I did the same thing with my A5 which is still going strong after 8 years of heavy use. Looking at the G4, the only thing I will need to replace due to long term wear and tear will be o-rings and perhaps the bolt. Is that worth $1000 or more? "High end" guns will need the same type of service and parts.

Tippman guns are known for their durability but the real difference is in quality of design, materials, and more. A high end gun is made of higher quality materials, it is generally designed better (compare an ion and a shocker, they're similar except the Ion design sucks), and the biggest thing is customer service and tech support at events. Dangerous Power doesn't show up to PSP events. If I was shooting a DP gun and something happens, I'm **** out of luck. If I shoot a dye, bob long, macdev, or eclipse gun I can have it fixed if something were to go wrong and I have the option to hand it to them and have it shooting perfectly even if it was working fine...for free. At World Cup 07 I walked up to Dye with a dm5, dm6 and pm7 and told them I'm playing tomorrow can you get these guns to shoot even better and replace any worn parts? They say yes of course. I can't do that with Dangerous Power.

6. Some "high end" guns have less recoil than "low end" guns. I wont deny that even with the zero kick techt bolt in my A5 it has a lot of recoil for a PB gun. The G4 with the stock bolt does not have any more recoil than a lot of the "high end" guns that I shot and even that tiny amount of recoil can be reduced with a $70 techt bolt kit. Is the slightly better recoil worth $1000?

This is a hard question. It kind of goes off the lpr/hpr for a better shooting gun thing. A G4 won't kick like a mule but it won't ever shoot as smooth (rock steady btw) as properly tuned and taken care of matrix.

7. Some "high end" guns have really nice ASA's. I like the Bob Long gear drive ASA and the PE POPS ASA. The BL gear drive is kind of complicated and has a lot of parts, but it is really smooth to operate. The POPS ASA is super easy to use and works very well. Between the two I like the POPS ASA better. I got a great deal on a new POPS ASA and replaced the RAPS ASA on my DP G4. However, the RAPS ASA worked wonderfully well and gave me no problems. Is a nice ASA really worth spending $1000 extra?

It's just a nice plus. IMO it's more of a "You dropped a good amount of cash, were not going to give you a ****ty asa." kind of thing.

8. Some "high end" guns come with great carrying cases. I went to a sporting goods store and bought an aluminum case for $25 that holds my G4, Rotor, barrel, tools and a few other things. It doesn't have the nice cut outs like a PE or Dye case would have, but is a nice case really worth $1000? Besides, on the field, in the middle of a battle, who cares what kind of case you have.

A case is just a nice plus, it doesn't make or break anything.

9. Some "high end" guns have nicer "stock" barrels. It is true that IF you could find paint and could always guarantee good ball to bore fit, that the stock barrel would shoot very consistently. Most decent players get a barrel kit because we all know that paint is NEVER the same size from one day to the next never mind from different companies and different times of year. Everyone who wants good consistency, will buy a barrel kit eventually and never use the "stock" barrel again. Considering that I'll pay the same amount as you will for a barrel kit regardless of the cost of the gun, does that make it worth paying $1000 more for a "high end" gun?

In my case barrel kits are a waste of money. I practice at the same 2 fields and know what paint I will be using come event time (the same paint I've been shooting, but better). An ultralite that comes on a matrix is one of best barrels you can buy and with a .688 bore size, it'll shoot anything besides rocks pretty straight.
The bottomline is when you buy a high end gun you get the total package. Any upgrade you can buy is a usually a waste of money or inferior, it's build and tested to a much higher standard, and a few years from now I can still get it fixed for free at events. There are some things like updated asa's or bolts I could buy, but I'd rather use my money to play.

The absolute biggest reason to buy a high end gun over a mediocre mid end gun is simply because you can. If you don't have sponsorships or friends with nice gear to buy from you can still log on here and find a reputable seller and get something nice. I could get an sft shocker for ~$150, a nicer pl nxt for ~$300, a ul'd pm7 for ~$300, an intimidator for ~$300, etc. If you want to take it further I could buy a proto slg for ~$100, that's an arguably better if not just as good gun as the G4 for a third of the price. The same thing with an sft shocker, except the shocker IS a better gun than the g4.

I recently sold an intimidator, a ripper 2.5. It's a rare gun, its higher quality than a g4, shoots better than a g4, has better tech support than a g4, and I sold it for the same exact price you bought your g4. The g4 loses in every single category against it and you get so much more for the same price.
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Old 11-26-2011, 10:13 PM #6
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Ill give you ANOTHER quick reason why SOME people get high end guns

1. So they can be a show off. They love attention.

2. Cause they think the type of gun says it all about them.

3. Because they can afford it.

4. They want to be the cool kids.


Those are some reasons. Though I shouldn't be talking to much crap cause I bought a black and gold NT11 because I love the looks and how it performs, even though I know a $500 shoots just as good. Some people spend the extra cash just because of looks.


Tip: I said SOME People ;]
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Old 11-26-2011, 11:23 PM #7
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+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish916 View Post
First off 2 important things.
1) You seem like you are considering more or less a recball environment, at minimum a tourney series without much talented or experienced teams signing up. "Speedball games" hardly mean anything. There's a huge difference between playing on a field with inflatable bunkers and practicing against a strong team on said field. A legitimate PSP national event is very different from a day at the field.

2) I don't and never would drop $1000+ on a gun. I get all my gear from friends, buying used, or from sponsors. You can get an older Proto matrix, shocker, or intimidator on here for essentially the same price or less than you bought your G4.



The bottomline is when you buy a high end gun you get the total package. Any upgrade you can buy is a usually a waste of money or inferior, it's build and tested to a much higher standard, and a few years from now I can still get it fixed for free at events. There are some things like updated asa's or bolts I could buy, but I'd rather use my money to play.

The absolute biggest reason to buy a high end gun over a mediocre mid end gun is simply because you can. If you don't have sponsorships or friends with nice gear to buy from you can still log on here and find a reputable seller and get something nice. I could get an sft shocker for ~$150, a nicer pl nxt for ~$300, a ul'd pm7 for ~$300, an intimidator for ~$300, etc. If you want to take it further I could buy a proto slg for ~$100, that's an arguably better if not just as good gun as the G4 for a third of the price. The same thing with an sft shocker, except the shocker IS a better gun than the g4.

I recently sold an intimidator, a ripper 2.5. It's a rare gun, its higher quality than a g4, shoots better than a g4, has better tech support than a g4, and I sold it for the same exact price you bought your g4. The g4 loses in every single category against it and you get so much more for the same price.
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Old 11-27-2011, 12:46 AM #8
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Old 11-27-2011, 01:15 AM #9
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My question after reading this post is why did you buy a rotor? If your going to go into such great detail about how a mid-range gun can compete with high-ends because they're so similar, why buy an overpriced high-end loader when you can get a brand new velocity that does the same job for less than a fourth of the cost of the rotor?
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Old 11-27-2011, 02:30 AM #10
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Quote:
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My question after reading this post is why did you buy a rotor? If your going to go into such great detail about how a mid-range gun can compete with high-ends because they're so similar, why buy an overpriced high-end loader when you can get a brand new velocity that does the same job for less than a fourth of the cost of the rotor?
^ i agree yet disagree:
agree: i had a virtued vlocity that could keep up with my friends v2 rotor with no problem at all, and not one jam.
disagree: vlocities are FREAKISHLY ugly and bulky
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Old 11-27-2011, 03:50 AM #11
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^ i agree yet disagree:
agree: i had a virtued vlocity that could keep up with my friends v2 rotor with no problem at all, and not one jam.
disagree: vlocities are FREAKISHLY ugly and bulky
That's why I stick to used rotors and v2s instead of paying full price
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Old 11-27-2011, 07:40 AM #12
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The answer is you dont need to. If you love the way your g4 shoots and you are happy with your purchase you should just keep your gun and be happy with it. Honesty there is no need for most high end guns for example a csl compared to a ego11 both are high end guns but you pay 600+ more for the csl for advanced technology. All that i am saying is if you have the money and you want to invest more money in to the sport(high end) go for it, But if you dont want to there is honesty no reason then.
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:15 AM #13
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I bought my rotor used. I have seen tons of them on the field and everyone I asked said that they would never use any other hopper again. I looked at tons of reviews and it was the same story. No one said anything bad about the rotor. I looked at assembly and service videos and it was more rave reviews. The only thing I have ever seen negative about the Rotor is the occasional jam problem. I think a jam sensing capable board will resolve that issue.

Vlocities are ugly. Rotors are a much nicer looking hopper...not that looks matters remotely as much as performance does.

A couple of explanations about the questions I asked...
I read A LOT and so I develop opinions based on what others say. I also question what people say over and over again and wonder why they are so dogmatic about their opinions. For example the questions about useless stuff like a nice case or nice milling or stock barrels are based on stuff I have heard at the field and various forums that I just couldn't get my head around why they should EVER matter. To me the whole idea that a pretty gun should ever matter is just a case of ego stroking. I don't want an ugly gun any more than anyone else, but I would much rather have one that I can depend on and was beat up. My ego should be based on my skill level and mediated heavily by a desire to be fair and honest rather than by how much others express envy for whatever gun I'm shooting.

Barrels...
It has been my experience that a barrel kit guarantees that I can buy any kind of paint and be able to shoot it accurately. Stock barrels are good only IF you have paint that matches.

Total package...
Servicing guns is something I have done for myself and my friends for years. Are there things I don't know about specific guns? Sure there are. However I have always been able to maintain my own gear so having the manufacturer on site at an event is nice, but of limited value as it can only be used at that event. Cases, tools and other things are only useful when you're NOT playing PB so again they are of limited value. The important detail is what happens on the field.

Thank you all for your perspectives and opinions!!!
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Old 11-28-2011, 11:06 AM #14
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i'd never pay over 600 for a gun. buy used (do research and you'll end up with a "like new" gun for cheap.

or ask online retailers if they have any older guns that they're sitting on for years. i just got lucky and caught the last brand new 07 cyborg recently for $450. it was a $1200 origanally. ask around and companies will give great deals. i know bob long still sells some older brand new timmies for cheap.
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Old 11-28-2011, 04:13 PM #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkenders View Post
So here's the question:
Why should I pay $1000+ for an expensive gun when a $300 gun performs so nearly identically?
Great question. It really comes down to personal preference, and if you want to spend the money on the more expensive gun. As others have said if you buy used the price difference becomes less. In some cases you may prefer the feel of the $300 gun over the $1500 gun.
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Old 11-30-2011, 02:28 AM #16
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I buy used. I got my G4 and Rotor used for $305.
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Old 11-30-2011, 07:13 PM #17
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I think Irish pretty much hit it right on point there. Once again though as everyone says it's all about feel and how the gun feels to you. You know how you play better than everyone else and what you require to play the way you do.
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Old 12-01-2011, 10:39 AM #18
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Irish

I believe that you don't particularly need a High end gun, yes in tournaments, it is helpful to keep up with the competition I.e. precision, fire rates, comfort etc etc. But I have always believed this game to be 80% player 20% gat, if you have the skills and know how on field it shouldn't matter what your shooting it's how you play which will count.
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Old 12-01-2011, 10:42 AM #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kilerclax7
My question after reading this post is why did you buy a rotor? If your going to go into such great detail about how a mid-range gun can compete with high-ends because they're so similar, why buy an overpriced high-end loader when you can get a brand new velocity that does the same job for less than a fourth of the cost of the rotor?
Good point, I've been rocking a vlocity since before the rotors came out, do the job just as well and lighter too. People complain about battery usage, but seriously, who doesn't replace battery's after every day in use?
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Old 12-01-2011, 10:49 AM #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardMacdonald View Post
Good point, I've been rocking a vlocity since before the rotors came out, do the job just as well and lighter too. People complain about battery usage, but seriously, who doesn't replace battery's after every day in use?
I have a V2 Prophecy, changed the batteries once all season... so... 2 sets of batteries per year.
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Old 12-01-2011, 11:01 AM #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardMacdonald View Post
Good point, I've been rocking a vlocity since before the rotors came out, do the job just as well and lighter too. People complain about battery usage, but seriously, who doesn't replace battery's after every day in use?
you replace batteries after every time you use it?! after a month of using it, you've spent more on batteries than what a velocity is worth...
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