[scroadkill]

Originally Posted by YeloSno

Seriously.^I think people forget what the word "recreational" means. Recreational play. Have fun. Still needs an objective to keep people having fun instead of chaos, but it's fun nevertheless.
Tournament play and Scenario play is a whole 'nother ordeal.

^ yep -- I think that is exactly what the Creator was getting at as well. It hurts me to see Scenario Play grouped with Tournament Play - but I fear you are right... probably the reason I'm loosing interest in scenario ball. It used to be more fun.

[loneassassin]

Originally Posted by YeloSno

Seriously.^

I think people forget what the word "recreational" means.

Recreational play. Have fun. Still needs an objective to keep people having fun instead of chaos, but it's fun nevertheless.

Tournament play and Scenario play is a whole 'nother ordeal.

Agreed -- and I think that misunderstanding is the cause of people leaving the sport and the cause of all these threads. Some people's idea of good "recreation" is going out, shooting some people, getting shot a bit, but all in a friendly setting. And then you have another group who's idea of "recreation" is to go out and pummel people into submission with paint just because their gun can do it and they could afford two cases that day.

If people would just be mature we could have our high-rof guns and there still wouldn't be any problems. That's probably asking too much, considering the age of your average player these days. I certainly wasn't always a gentleman when I was playing as a teenager - but the difference was, the guns were not capable of delivering the serious amount of pain that they are now.

Personally, I'd like to see a return to limited-paint games as a norm. I believe that would solve a lot of the problems associated with overshooting. I've been a long time proponent of that, as a matter of fact. But my recommendations usually fall on deaf ears. People think they want to play the style of game that's actually less fun, more costly, and less action. You limit the amount of paint allowed on the field, you will start to see more action, bigger moves, and more smiles on people's faces. Mark my words.

[Milky Spore]

Originally Posted by *C-Ro*

lol , i said i was venting , not trying to publish in the New York Times. But its true, ramping and all these new modes , to me , took alot of the fun and skill out of paintball. If you can pull a trigger 15 bps , thats something , but not pull three times and then all out madness. I just wish the good old days of Angel LCD's, shoebox shockers, and custom autocockers would come back

word. i always say "love the -whatever it is you're doing-, hate the kids"

[scroadkill]

Originally Posted by loneassassin

..Personally, I'd like to see a return to limited-paint games as a norm. ... You limit the amount of paint allowed on the field, you will start to see more action, bigger moves, and more smiles on people's faces. Mark my words.

Take this idea back to your home field - say "hey ref - next game lets play hopperball - 6bps max - no pods or packs on the field.. and see how it goes".

[loneassassin]

Originally Posted by scroadkill

Take this idea back to your home field - say "hey ref - next game lets play hopperball - 6bps max - no pods or packs on the field.. and see how it goes".

I'm not talking about taking it to that extreme. The whole point in doing it is that it doesn't matter how fast anyone can shoot. If they want to shoot 15bps, they can, as long as they realize they'll be out of paint VERY soon.

What I'm talking about is something along the lines of a hopper + 1 pod. Semi only. I usually can't get anyone to agree to play that way though, even when I tell them I've played the last 10 games that way and still wooped their ***.

[scroadkill]

extreme?.. just try it. Its very Darwinian.

[MrPLOXPLOXPLOX]

i agree. totaly

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by loneassassin

I'm not talking about taking it to that extreme. The whole point in doing it is that it doesn't matter how fast anyone can shoot. If they want to shoot 15bps, they can, as long as they realize they'll be out of paint VERY soon.

What I'm talking about is something along the lines of a hopper + 1 pod. Semi only. I usually can't get anyone to agree to play that way though, even when I tell them I've played the last 10 games that way and still wooped their ***.

If limiting paint, I wouldn't even worry about firing modes. Let people shoot full auto at 20 bps if they want. That's the beauty of limited paint, you don't need to have the ongoing argument about shooting modes and ROF. It's hard to police, so make it so you don't have to police it.

[ZebC]

Originally Posted by YeloSno

I'd rather buy a full bodied Osiris cocker. period.

That's kinda what I said.

[noclue119]

Ramping is a handicap but income level and mutual respect is what is lacking in this sport.

When I go play rec ball now a days I always start with my Pump. The problem isn't the ramping. The problem I have is when irresponsible players(all age group) decides to ramp on my back at 13 bps. Usually the refs at my home field will know who it was doing the damage and encourages me switch to a ramping gun and give him a few extra.

What I usually found is that people who likes to bonus ball others are the ones who thinks they are good but no where near tournament grade. Usually once you pass D5 you have a different mind set.

Furthermore, I don't think people in the sport have enough money to be playing the way they do. The targeted players in paintball are too young. I don't think most people can spend $60 a weekend on paint and not feel the repercussions of their decisions. That is why we have so many players quit.

[loneassassin]

Originally Posted by Horizon

If limiting paint, I wouldn't even worry about firing modes. Let people shoot full auto at 20 bps if they want. That's the beauty of limited paint, you don't need to have the ongoing argument about shooting modes and ROF. It's hard to police, so make it so you don't have to police it.

I'm still against full-auto and ramping in recreational play. I see what you're saying about the limited paint really restricting a full-auto player, but in my experience, there are always more "accidents" when players use full-auto/ramping, even if that rof is technically capped lower than people can walk on semi. Most paintball guns have the option of going back to straight semi. I wouldn't restrict rof on semi though -- too many people would not be able to comply with the limit.

Originally Posted by noclue119

The problem isn't the ramping. The problem I have is when irresponsible players(all age group) decides to ramp on my back at 13 bps. Indeed, this is an ettiquette problem that needs to be addressed by fields all over.


Furthermore, I don't think people in the sport have enough money to be playing the way they do. The targeted players in paintball are too young. I don't think most people can spend $60 a weekend on paint and not feel the repercussions of their decisions. That is why we have so many players quit.

Agreed, and this is also a reason I try to get people to play limited paint games -- because more people can afford to keep playing that way. Really, it's a win/win for everybody.

Again, people think that a high rof/high volume paintball environment is the most fun, yet that is exactly the format responsible for overshooting, bonus-balling, stalemate games, and basically forced retirement from the sport due to lack of funds. The irony kills me.

[ActionExpress]

Originally Posted by outkast kid

Don't really understand the point of this thread. Sure the guns have gotten faster but that makes things harder and not easier. Instead of playing on a massive 10 man field with people shooting 5 bps, you're playing on a 5 man field with people shooting 12-15 bps. How is that easier? If anything, player skill has dramatically increased.

I agree with this 100%. Yes this is the recreational forum, and not the tournament one, but paintball is paintball in my eyes. I can go out and play with my team and play hard, or play with beginners and help them adapt and grow in the sport. What I will say is that 5 man 12.5 ramping made me a MUCH better player, and improved the skills of a lot of players around this area.

Our biggest asset in 7man was our ability to shoot really fast on semi. (yes bouncing guns, I dont really believe people that can shoot "fast" on semi) Now that we have smaller fields, less bunkers, less players, and consistent ramping guns, you have to actually work on other skills to come out on top. Like precisely timed movement, team communication, running and gunning, cardio, and endurance.

Do some people have more fun playing 7 man? Yes. Is this the recreational forum? Sure is. But to say that ramping makes the game easier, and that the new game formats are easy, is really silly. Either get with the times, find a field you are comfortable playing at, or quit. ps. This is a public forum, if you didn't want people input then don't post.

[*C-Ro*]

Originally Posted by ActionExpress

I agree with this 100%. Yes this is the recreational forum, and not the tournament one, but paintball is paintball in my eyes. I can go out and play with my team and play hard, or play with beginners and help them adapt and grow in the sport. What I will say is that 5 man 12.5 ramping made me a MUCH better player, and improved the skills of a lot of players around this area.

Our biggest asset in 7man was our ability to shoot really fast on semi. (yes bouncing guns, I dont really believe people that can shoot "fast" on semi) Now that we have smaller fields, less bunkers, less players, and consistent ramping guns, you have to actually work on other skills to come out on top. Like precisely timed movement, team communication, running and gunning, cardio, and endurance.

Do some people have more fun playing 7 man? Yes. Is this the recreational forum? Sure is. But to say that ramping makes the game easier, and that the new game formats are easy, is really silly. Either get with the times, find a field you are comfortable playing at, or quit. ps. This is a public forum, if you didn't want people input then don't post.

P.S. - get on these salties

[conscript37]

Your rambling, and the sport seems to be doing poorly or well depending on where you are. That is to say, the sport just seems to be doing worse in some areas compared to others.

[chuey]

Things change you have to just go with it. I had great fun this weekend. Try to play more strategic. I.E. I was on a team of rentals this weekend, all kids. We were up against another squad with their own equipment. Mostly BT mil-sim stuff, SP-1s and the other team was setting their guns on full auto.

But guess what? The little kids they must have been 13 or 14 were teaching these 20 somethings with the full auto mil sim equipment a thing or two. This was on Sunday at ABC Paintball in NJ. Maybe it helped that their rental markers are essentially Tippmans that looked new and pristine and shot true but that said the whole ramping thing doesn't mean anything. If it didn't deter any of the kids kicking *** and playing with the rental tippies it shouldn't deter you.

I tried to have fun with it, as the full auto mil sim guys might have been new themselves. I pulled out an old school move from the playbooks. I rushed to halfway up at the left field where they were, waited for their squad who was running in a pack. I popped two of them real quick and then double backed to my base so that they could see me. The rest of my team was on the right side for whatever reason. Anyhow me retreating by myself caused them to chase me, they didn't seem to realize that it was a trap. They were laying down full auto paint and I was just mowing them down surgically one by one. That was experience. It didn't matter that I was outgunned or outmanned. I took out 6 of the 8 players and the refs were whooping and hollering. The refs were younger so I guess they didn't play back when an RT valved micromag or an Shocktech cocker was the place to be at in pball.

Nothing wrong with newer guns, they are extremely efficient on air!!!

[JohnSherman]

Originally Posted by loneassassin

Agreed, and this is also a reason I try to get people to play limited paint games -- because more people can afford to keep playing that way. Really, it's a win/win for everybody.

This is why I was so excited about the Tactical format that the PSP tried to use this year. Hopperball is one of my favorite ways to play, and I hope that they try it again next season.

[Soul06]

Problem with this entire rant is that the OP cites the ramping modes and speeds as the problem with paintball but then sings the praises of the cockers and Angels. But the Angel IR3 (one of the first angels) had 26 modes which included Ramp (13bps max) and FULL AUTO (20 bps max). The Eblades for autocockers also gave them high rates of fire.

So taking all that into consideration, what really are you complaining about? Markers were shooting fast back then. They shoot fast now. Biggest difference is now more people have markers capable of high rates of fire where as back then you were likely one of the fewer that did. Oh well.....get over it. Times change

[chuey]

My only problem with the paintball world [besides the over-inflated prices]...STOP TURNING BEAUTIFUL COCKERS INTO PUMPS. lol (+1)!!!!

[cptmike03]

I am in the exact same boat as the OP, and agree with him.

I started playing in 1994ish. Played through college until 2002 (mostly pump) then took a few years off. Started back up in 2004, then in 2007 or 2008, took a few years off (another degree got in the way). Now I am picking it up again.

I was SHOCKED to see that WGP and Smart Parts were no more!!

I too hate Ramping and Auto for rec play. Back in the day, Tippmann made a mechanical auto called the F/A, which most fields banned. Because of this, Tippmann stopped making it 2 years later. Today, just about every electro can shoot faster then the F/A.

Dont worry, mechanical guns are starting to make a big comeback. I just bought a 2002 right feed single trigger-bone stock Autococker off Ebay. When I brought it to the field EVERYONE wanted one when they saw how accurate it was. And I mean Everyone, including the Refs and guys with $1300 guns. I got tons of offers to buy it from me. The same thing happens when I bring out the Minimag and Phantom. I seriously think that you are going to see a resurgence of mechanical single trigger guns.

The electro gun craze of 2004-2008 has slowly morphed into the Milsim gun craze. I think people are getting sick of the battery operated paintball gun (I hate them, but do have a Karnavor) concept, and for the last 5 years, all guns have looked like those from previous years. I see more excitment today when I bring out one of the classics then when the new DM--?? Electro-Ramping 4oz techno marvel.

I have also been hearing more and more grumbeling about the ROF problem by everyone, regardless of age. Even the Refs seem to hate ramping for rec play. I think in the future, most electros will be used on the Tourny scene, while mechanicals will dominate rec play. The economy has also been helping this along.

I personally miss the movement of the old days, when you were not being hosed with ramping and could run around quite a bit.

[*C-Ro*]

^^ thank you ... this thread has been turned into this all out discussiong about tourney play and rec play and this and that ... and then that guy that made a comment about the IR3 being one of the first angels , but it had full auto ... the angels im speaking of were the LED and Lcd's, which were around long before the IR3. I dont care if it is tourney play , rec play or anything , everything IMO should be semi , unless it is scenerio , thats a different ball game, but any speedball type game should be semi , thats my opinion ... if you wanna shoot 20BPS , pull the trigger that many times .... anyone can take a gun and just hold the trigger down and lay a constant lane and just wait for someone to run into it ..... This whole thread has gotten so off topic .... this was aimed at the guys who have been playin from 2002 and before , so if you dont fit into that category , you have no idea what i am speaking of , so your opinion is invalid to me .... If PSP mode was available when you started , you havent been playing long enough to relate to the times that i am reffering to

[Soul06]

Originally Posted by cptmike03

I am in the exact same boat as the OP, and agree with him.

I started playing in 1994ish. Played through college until 2002 (mostly pump) then took a few years off. Started back up in 2004, then in 2007 or 2008, took a few years off (another degree got in the way). Now I am picking it up again.

I was SHOCKED to see that WGP and Smart Parts were no more!!

I too hate Ramping and Auto for rec play. Back in the day, Tippmann made a mechanical auto called the F/A, which most fields banned. Because of this, Tippmann stopped making it 2 years later. Today, just about every electro can shoot faster then the F/A.

Dont worry, mechanical guns are starting to make a big comeback. I just bought a 2002 right feed single trigger-bone stock Autococker off Ebay. When I brought it to the field EVERYONE wanted one when they saw how accurate it was. And I mean Everyone, including the Refs and guys with $1300 guns. I got tons of offers to buy it from me. The same thing happens when I bring out the Minimag and Phantom. I seriously think that you are going to see a resurgence of mechanical single trigger guns.

The electro gun craze of 2004-2008 has slowly morphed into the Milsim gun craze. I think people are getting sick of the battery operated paintball gun (I hate them, but do have a Karnavor) concept, and for the last 5 years, all guns have looked like those from previous years. I see more excitment today when I bring out one of the classics then when the new DM--?? Electro-Ramping 4oz techno marvel.

I have also been hearing more and more grumbeling about the ROF problem by everyone, regardless of age. Even the Refs seem to hate ramping for rec play. I think in the future, most electros will be used on the Tourny scene, while mechanicals will dominate rec play. The economy has also been helping this along.

I personally miss the movement of the old days, when you were not being hosed with ramping and could run around quite a bit.

Been proven, repeatedly, that autocockers are no more accurate then any other marker. Search PBN. There are more than enough threads about it. As for everyone being sick of electros and going back to mechs...don't hold your breathe. Many, if not most, left mechs because electros are proven to be lighter, more efficient and far smoother. Very few are going to want to trade that in for a marker that eats up more air, kicks far more and is heavier to carry around. Especially when the big name companies are making mid electro markers with camo patterns or colors better suited for those who are dedicated to woodsball. Off the top of my head I can name 3; Empire Axe, Planet Eclipse Etek3 and Etha

Originally Posted by *C-Ro*

^^ thank you ... this thread has been turned into this all out discussiong about tourney play and rec play and this and that ... and then that guy that made a comment about the IR3 being one of the first angels , but it had full auto ... the angels im speaking of were the LED and Lcd's, which were around long before the IR3. I dont care if it is tourney play , rec play or anything , everything IMO should be semi , unless it is scenerio , thats a different ball game, but any speedball type game should be semi , thats my opinion ... if you wanna shoot 20BPS , pull the trigger that many times .... anyone can take a gun and just hold the trigger down and lay a constant lane and just wait for someone to run into it ..... This whole thread has gotten so off topic .... this was aimed at the guys who have been playin from 2002 and before , so if you dont fit into that category , you have no idea what i am speaking of , so your opinion is invalid to me .... If PSP mode was available when you started , you havent been playing long enough to relate to the times that i am reffering to

That person you are indirectly referring to is me. I have only been playing since 2001. I was 23 at the time. Didn't know a ton about paintball but knew enough. But when you/I began playing is irrelevant. All that matters is what you wrote. And what you wrote is laced with hypocrisy.

You bash all modes other than semi. You ranted about how you hate ramping and full auto. But then you went on to praise Angels. I pointed out that the IR3 (the 4th Angel in their line of markers) had full auto. You now say that you aren't talking about that one but instead he LED and LCD...okay. Well the LED was capable of 13bps and had the option to switch out the board for one with full auto. The LCD came, just like the IR3, with 26 modes. One of which being Full Auto 20bps. I can post links to the manuals for you if you like.
But how can you bash todays markers and praise the markers of your day that did the same thing???

Now I didn't read through all the posts but from what I did read I do not recall anyone defending shooting their markers at uncapped max. I for certain hate that.....Spray and Pray we call it. But I don't see a problem with markers being CAPABLE of higher rates of fire. Thats like blaming an auto maker for building a car capable of doing 200mph. You blame the operator for violating the speed limit not the maker. Same with paintball. Fields have rules. If players are violating them the refs should do something about it. Or you should report it to the field owner.

Last thing though, when you are out on the field and you hear what sounds like full auto it isn't always that. I know you came from a time when 8bps was alot. I know when I first heard 13bps from a Tippmann 98 with E-grip I thought it sounded like a machine gun. But these days its fairly easy to shoot upwards of 14-15bps IN SEMI. I know i can.