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Old 06-08-2010, 03:47 PM #1
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WGP's future under JT/Kee

um, basically im looking for a JT rep to answer this simple question.

Is there a future for the Autococker?
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Old 06-09-2010, 12:01 AM #2
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I'm going to say no, unfortunately. I look at it in this way: Every year that a new autococker doesn't come out is another year that they fall behind in technology. And now that there are guns like the nt, ego 10, dm's, and luxe's, it probably will not be worth the cost to catch up. But if they do, if they really invest, i think the autococker holds a lot of possibilities. Look at the Karnivore, Before it came out, ( Back then i didn't know much about cockers) I didn't think it could be possible to get any where near 40 bps on an autococker. ( if I recall, i think that is what they said it could top out at) because it just took too long to open the bolt, load a ball, close it, and trigger the solenoid. But anyway, ( sorry for the rant) If kee is to spend the time and money on the autococker, i think something new, awesome, and amazing will come out of it. Maybe even technologies to be used on other guns using different operation systems.
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Old 06-09-2010, 07:54 AM #3
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The market for cockers doesn't seem to be there. Sure, people are starting to buy more of them (used) these days, but many of them go to pump projects (not a bad thing ) and people just want them to screw around with and shoot for a while because it's something different.

IMO, it's not a question of performance. I've seen many cockers (factory stock and custom built) equal or outperform many midrange electros available today. People seem to have it in their heads that cockers are outdated technology and that anything newer is automatically better. Weight also seems to be a factor, at least with factory-bodied mechs (I prefer heavier guns, so it's not an issue to me).

People want what they want. Can't change that. The market goes where it will make money, and unfortunately (in this case) the market doesn't seem to want to take the route of the autococker. Whether the potential for better cocker technology is there or not, I don't know. But people like cheap electros and I don't see a cheap electro (non sear-tripping) cocker being an inexpensive option for potential buyers or a marker with a worthwhile profit margin for manufacturers due to cost of production.

In short, it doesn't look good, at least to me. But there's nothing wrong with taking advantage of all the cheap aftermarket goodies out there and building your own.
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Old 06-09-2010, 08:31 AM #4
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IMO it's a marketing thing...they are just not being marketed correctly. JT needs to put someone young and hungrey in charge of the Autococker brand and let them go with it. It's a great name and a great product, I would hate to see it go the way of Smart Parts...
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Old 06-09-2010, 12:40 PM #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbkid0486 View Post
um, basically im looking for a JT rep to answer this simple question.

Is there a future for the Autococker?
Honestly, I think there is - if someone took the time to develop a new autococker based upon it's origins, instead of trying to compete with the latest and greatest speedball designed markers.

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Originally Posted by Magman99 View Post
I'm going to say no, unfortunately. I look at it in this way: Every year that a new autococker doesn't come out is another year that they fall behind in technology. And now that there are guns like the nt, ego 10, dm's, and luxe's, it probably will not be worth the cost to catch up. But if they do, if they really invest, i think the autococker holds a lot of possibilities. Look at the Karnivore, Before it came out, ( Back then i didn't know much about cockers) I didn't think it could be possible to get any where near 40 bps on an autococker. ( if I recall, i think that is what they said it could top out at) because it just took too long to open the bolt, load a ball, close it, and trigger the solenoid. But anyway, ( sorry for the rant) If kee is to spend the time and money on the autococker, i think something new, awesome, and amazing will come out of it. Maybe even technologies to be used on other guns using different operation systems.
Just because technology has advanced, doesn't mean the autococker has to play catch up. Why does it matter if an autococker is able to shoot 40-something balls per second? Autocockers were not designed for that kind of speed in the first place. They were designed to be reliable and customizable mechanical or pump markers. Only later on did Planet Eclipse, WGP and the other companies start designing a way to convert them to the "Superstock".

All it would take to "modernize" the autococker is some investment into designing a new one. Frankly, I don't think the autococker needs to be modernized as much as everyone might think.

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The market for cockers doesn't seem to be there. Sure, people are starting to buy more of them (used) these days, but many of them go to pump projects (not a bad thing ) and people just want them to screw around with and shoot for a while because it's something different.

IMO, it's not a question of performance. I've seen many cockers (factory stock and custom built) equal or outperform many midrange electros available today. People seem to have it in their heads that cockers are outdated technology and that anything newer is automatically better. Weight also seems to be a factor, at least with factory-bodied mechs (I prefer heavier guns, so it's not an issue to me).

People want what they want. Can't change that. The market goes where it will make money, and unfortunately (in this case) the market doesn't seem to want to take the route of the autococker. Whether the potential for better cocker technology is there or not, I don't know. But people like cheap electros and I don't see a cheap electro (non sear-tripping) cocker being an inexpensive option for potential buyers or a marker with a worthwhile profit margin for manufacturers due to cost of production.

In short, it doesn't look good, at least to me. But there's nothing wrong with taking advantage of all the cheap aftermarket goodies out there and building your own.
I will have to respectfully disagree with that assessment. You yourself just stated that people are buying more and more old/used autocockers. Does that not show a market potential for a new "modernized" autococker? If WGP/JT/Kee were to design an updated version of an autococker, along with custom pump kits and new aftermarket parts, they will bring autocockers back to the forefront. Better yet, design a new autococker that can use the current generation of autococker upgrades and technology, while also allowing newer and "modern" upgrades to work as well. Including the equivalent of a new electronic frame.

You say that there would be no market or potential for an autococker because it isn't "what the market wants". On the contrary, look at the Tippmann line of markers. Most of their products are mechanical in nature, and only a few have the ability to go electronic with a drop in kit. Sure, a Tippmann A-5 with E-grip is becoming pretty standard, but the market for a reliable, customizable, and mechanical marker is still there. An autococker can easily penetrate that market if they kept the same standards of quality that they had when WGP was still independent. With that being said, I don't believe it would be in the autococker's best interest to invest directly into an electronic marker. The origins of the autococker were mechanical, and that's where the focus should be. Upgrades to electronic frames and fancy new upgrades will come later.

All that is needed is the ability to market it. I gaurantee that if a new "true" autococker is released, it will sell out of all the major retailers pretty quickly. As long as there are no major issues with that first release, word will spread quickly that autocockers are coming back and you'll see more people buy them.

I myself don't have autocockers just to shoot something different. I love playing going out on the field with them because they are reliable and can be customized exactly how I want them to be. I currently have three autocockers. Two of them are mechanical, and one of them is the Superstock variant.

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Originally Posted by Capt'n Crunch View Post
IMO it's a marketing thing...they are just not being marketed correctly. JT needs to put someone young and hungrey in charge of the Autococker brand and let them go with it. It's a great name and a great product, I would hate to see it go the way of Smart Parts...
I agree. If WGP/JT/KEE took the time to market a new autococker it could be just as successful as the Ion was when it was released (bad example probably, I know), or any other marker that has penetrated the market.

WGP I don't think will go the way of Smart Parts, but designing a new autococker is definitely in their best interest.
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Old 06-09-2010, 03:13 PM #6
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Originally Posted by eruffini View Post
Honestly, I think there is - if someone took the time to develop a new autococker based upon it's origins, instead of trying to compete with the latest and greatest speedball designed markers.



Just because technology has advanced, doesn't mean the autococker has to play catch up. Why does it matter if an autococker is able to shoot 40-something balls per second? Autocockers were not designed for that kind of speed in the first place. They were designed to be reliable and customizable mechanical or pump markers. Only later on did Planet Eclipse, WGP and the other companies start designing a way to convert them to the "Superstock".

All it would take to "modernize" the autococker is some investment into designing a new one. Frankly, I don't think the autococker needs to be modernized as much as everyone might think.



I will have to respectfully disagree with that assessment. You yourself just stated that people are buying more and more old/used autocockers. Does that not show a market potential for a new "modernized" autococker? If WGP/JT/Kee were to design an updated version of an autococker, along with custom pump kits and new aftermarket parts, they will bring autocockers back to the forefront. Better yet, design a new autococker that can use the current generation of autococker upgrades and technology, while also allowing newer and "modern" upgrades to work as well. Including the equivalent of a new electronic frame.

You say that there would be no market or potential for an autococker because it isn't "what the market wants". On the contrary, look at the Tippmann line of markers. Most of their products are mechanical in nature, and only a few have the ability to go electronic with a drop in kit. Sure, a Tippmann A-5 with E-grip is becoming pretty standard, but the market for a reliable, customizable, and mechanical marker is still there. An autococker can easily penetrate that market if they kept the same standards of quality that they had when WGP was still independent. With that being said, I don't believe it would be in the autococker's best interest to invest directly into an electronic marker. The origins of the autococker were mechanical, and that's where the focus should be. Upgrades to electronic frames and fancy new upgrades will come later.

All that is needed is the ability to market it. I gaurantee that if a new "true" autococker is released, it will sell out of all the major retailers pretty quickly. As long as there are no major issues with that first release, word will spread quickly that autocockers are coming back and you'll see more people buy them.

I myself don't have autocockers just to shoot something different. I love playing going out on the field with them because they are reliable and can be customized exactly how I want them to be. I currently have three autocockers. Two of them are mechanical, and one of them is the Superstock variant.



I agree. If WGP/JT/KEE took the time to market a new autococker it could be just as successful as the Ion was when it was released (bad example probably, I know), or any other marker that has penetrated the market.

WGP I don't think will go the way of Smart Parts, but designing a new autococker is definitely in their best interest.
But see, you're leaving out some key details. Number one, a new mech cocker would not be cheap. Tippmanns do good becuase they are cheap, "look cool", and are marketed to the general populace. A $400 cocker would not be. Yes, the first autocockers were to be mechanical. The first paintball markers were meant to be pump, does that mean we shouldn't go with technology and make electros? Some of the first electros were cockers. Superstocks came much later. The Sandridge Force Five was way before the wgp stuff. The end game is, it would be extremely hard to convince people that an autococker is better than the NT, or latest SL. People just have them set in their minds as old. A great example is the SR. Came out at $600. Now they are desperately trying to ditch them at $200. All it is is a modern cocker.
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Old 06-09-2010, 04:39 PM #7
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But see, you're leaving out some key details. Number one, a new mech cocker would not be cheap. Tippmanns do good becuase they are cheap, "look cool", and are marketed to the general populace. A $400 cocker would not be. Yes, the first autocockers were to be mechanical. The first paintball markers were meant to be pump, does that mean we shouldn't go with technology and make electros? Some of the first electros were cockers. Superstocks came much later. The Sandridge Force Five was way before the wgp stuff. The end game is, it would be extremely hard to convince people that an autococker is better than the NT, or latest SL. People just have them set in their minds as old. A great example is the SR. Came out at $600. Now they are desperately trying to ditch them at $200. All it is is a modern cocker.
I didn't say anything about making a cheap cocker. I would not sacrifice quality for cost. Tippmann's haven't lost much in price over the past few years. Yeah, there are some places that will sell a Tippmann for a much reduced price, but if you look at the cost of say, an A-5 or A-5 with E-grip, they sell for $180 and $280 respectfully. The X-7 sells for $250 for the basic marker, and the Phenom for $400! I believe a "modern" autococker could easily sell at that price level.

I didn't say that a new autococker should not have the ability to be electronic, but that should not be the focus of a new autococker. Build a mechanical autococker and provide the necessary upgrades to convert it to an electronic marker, or build two distinct versions (ie. Prostock and Superstock). Then you will appeal to a wider range of players.

Why would we want to convince people that the autococker is better the NT? In my opinion those two markers are in completely separate categories with two completely separate purposes. Sure, either one can be used for recreational or competitive play, but do you really think the Dye NT was designed for anything but speedball and tournaments?

The autococker is perceived as old because it has not been marketed for a long time. WGP/JT/KEE has not taken the time or investment to produce a suitable replacement for the "older" autocockers. I believe the SR was a step in the wrong direction and a failed attempt at reviving the autococker.
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Old 06-09-2010, 04:57 PM #8
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I wouldn't mind seeing an updated, fully pneumatic cocker, myself. Perhaps using something similar to the MQ valve and a better designed frame, and the cleaned up pneumatics and internal cocking rod of the SR. Find a way to simplify the timing so that it's not so intimidating to new cocker owners, and perhaps put it all into a smaller, lighter package. Not necessarily NT light, but take as much fat off as possible. If they did that, I think the cocker could have a future in the electronic marker segment. But honestly, I just don't see it happening.
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Old 06-09-2010, 07:41 PM #9
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unfortunately, the only way to successfully market a new gun these days is to make it look cool. what is the most desired cocker? karnivors. they look awesome, no one can deny that. Ill even use a cliched argument: egos. in all reality a new ego doesnt shoot all that much better than the rest of the poppet markers. It looks awesome though, and it is sold in eleventy billion color combos.

What I am getting at is IMO the cocker could make a comeback with these things:

redesigned frame for comfort/aesthetics (the sr frame is hideous)
milling. not mild shapes and curves but seriously cool milling
color combos. people will buy gear if it is offered in tons of colors.
board with an exposed screen. the sr nailed this.
factory mq-style valve
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Old 06-09-2010, 09:19 PM #10
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Originally Posted by eruffini View Post
I will have to respectfully disagree with that assessment. You yourself just stated that people are buying more and more old/used autocockers. Does that not show a market potential for a new "modernized" autococker? If WGP/JT/Kee were to design an updated version of an autococker, along with custom pump kits and new aftermarket parts, they will bring autocockers back to the forefront. Better yet, design a new autococker that can use the current generation of autococker upgrades and technology, while also allowing newer and "modern" upgrades to work as well. Including the equivalent of a new electronic frame.

A "modernized" mech cocker definitely has a shot, as demonstrated by the increase in used cocker/sniper purchases in the past couple years. I guess I was referring more to the electro market. Sorry I wasn't very clear with that.

You say that there would be no market or potential for an autococker because it isn't "what the market wants". On the contrary, look at the Tippmann line of markers. Most of their products are mechanical in nature, and only a few have the ability to go electronic with a drop in kit. Sure, a Tippmann A-5 with E-grip is becoming pretty standard, but the market for a reliable, customizable, and mechanical marker is still there. An autococker can easily penetrate that market if they kept the same standards of quality that they had when WGP was still independent. With that being said, I don't believe it would be in the autococker's best interest to invest directly into an electronic marker. The origins of the autococker were mechanical, and that's where the focus should be. Upgrades to electronic frames and fancy new upgrades will come later.

I won't disagree with that. However, a MUCH larger chunk of the market wants Tippmanns, not autocockers. People (both the general public and sanctioned fields) and want something that a half-wit monkey could figure out. They're easier for people to figure out and to repair, not to mention less intimidating as compared to the 26 or some-odd moving parts in a cocker.
I agree with the truth that cockers are just as solid, reliable, and in many ways better than many other markers out there, but (I dare say) people can be dumb/ignorant, and they dictate what the market wants (low-end mech blowbacks with a few simple electros mixed in).


All that is needed is the ability to market it. I gaurantee that if a new "true" autococker is released, it will sell out of all the major retailers pretty quickly. As long as there are no major issues with that first release, word will spread quickly that autocockers are coming back and you'll see more people buy them.

Shocktech made a 2009 SFL.
But like you said, it needs effective marketing. The SFL was definitely more of a niche market cocker (also reflected in the price tag...).

It's very possible. Marketing would be the key. People need to be educated about these markers. Also, I think as mechs they would need to fit in the ~$300 market to get decent sales. Manufacturing costs could be a big issue due to the number of parts, but that's probably a different conversation.


I myself don't have autocockers just to shoot something different. I love playing going out on the field with them because they are reliable and can be customized exactly how I want them to be. I currently have three autocockers. Two of them are mechanical, and one of them is the Superstock variant.
I don't know if a "true" cocker would be a big hit in the low-end market, but they definitely have a shot at the midrange market. It'd be tough to break back into it though with all the electros out there, but it's a matter of marketing.

EDIT: After further thinking, I guess my semi-pessimistic mindset is based more on my local market (central WI). There's probably larger market potential than what I had in mind. I like where this conversation is going. I'll check this thread later.
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Old 06-09-2010, 09:22 PM #11
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unfortunately, the only way to successfully market a new gun these days is to make it look cool. what is the most desired cocker? karnivors. they look awesome, no one can deny that. Ill even use a cliched argument: egos. in all reality a new ego doesnt shoot all that much better than the rest of the poppet markers. It looks awesome though, and it is sold in eleventy billion color combos.

What I am getting at is IMO the cocker could make a comeback with these things:

redesigned frame for comfort/aesthetics (the sr frame is hideous)
milling. not mild shapes and curves but seriously cool milling
color combos. people will buy gear if it is offered in tons of colors.
board with an exposed screen. the sr nailed this.
factory mq-style valve
For the high-end and upper midrange markets, I agree.
But if they want to move tons of units and take back a large share of the market I don't see this as being a good way to go. The more parts there are, the more it costs to manufacture. Not to mention that any "seriously cool" milling will likely not be cheap to do. Those costs will be reflected in the price tag.
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Old 06-09-2010, 11:14 PM #12
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I think there is a huge market for autococker parts. Especially for pump play. They should start producing more varied bodies and build-it-yourself kits. I myself would much rather prefer building my own than just buying one
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Old 06-10-2010, 05:08 AM #13
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^now theres an idea right there. imagine ordering an entire "kit" marker. Choose all of the parts you want from one site/shop then pay all at once for a complete kit. you could sell a high end marker cheaper due to the lack of assembly
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Old 06-20-2010, 05:06 AM #14
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Old 06-20-2010, 11:00 AM #15
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I think there is a market for new cockers out there. I know if they just re-released the Karnivor, exactly as it was, I would definately buy one. It would be nice to see it MQ valved or something like that. I used to own one and sold it being dumb, I loved that gun.
I think the SR was a major fail for the autococker line, the only thing good about it was how they cleaned up the front block by hiding the hoses.

Karnivor = best electro cocker ever. IMO. And some of the best milling on any gun. Also, IMO.

And you just can't beat a good mech cocker for one shot accuracy.

I really hope it comes back..
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Old 06-21-2010, 11:57 AM #16
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The market for the cocker is there, look at pumps, tons of people are making them pumps and other companies are using the cocker design to manufactor their version of the pump.
As far as speed, with a cap on 12 to 15 in my area, the cocker can easily handle that and then some, so speed is not an issue, the Karnivor and BM are the flagship markers, with the SR and Trilly being the lower end.
The desire for the autococker is there in the PB world, shochtech did a run a year or 2 ago and sold them. CCM is still making cocker pumps which could easily be made an eblade or mech.
Mech leagues are breaking out also, but the core of PB is the woods/rec/milsim area for now, so it would be in the interest of whoever decides to continue the making of autococker to produce them for this area and branch alittle into others.
The real issue is making a good cocker are a comp level in quality and price compare to the marker it is competing with.
Worst thing they did was the gel on/off buttom, they just plain suck wind!

We could do a petition to ask them to bring it back.
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Old 06-21-2010, 12:04 PM #17
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Personally I would LOVE to see a new high-end mech cocker released from WGP. I doubt it will happen though.
I get comments and compliments all the time on my stock 2k2 STO every time I bring it out. There has to be a market out there for a true blood autococker. The tinkerers dream. The nice thing was you could set them up exactly how you wanted. The Trilly/SR are poor representations of what use to be a great product line with a strong history.
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Old 06-21-2010, 02:43 PM #18
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Personally I would LOVE to see a new high-end mech cocker released from WGP. I doubt it will happen though.
I get comments and compliments all the time on my stock 2k2 STO every time I bring it out. There has to be a market out there for a true blood autococker. The tinkerers dream. The nice thing was you could set them up exactly how you wanted. The Trilly/SR are poor representations of what use to be a great product line with a strong history.
trilly is for newer cocker owners....
SR is NOT a poor gun its a mid end at low end price might not be an ideal cocker but a very nice marker indeed
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Old 06-21-2010, 03:24 PM #19
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Originally Posted by flash13 View Post
I think there is a market for new cockers out there. I know if they just re-released the Karnivor, exactly as it was, I would definately buy one. It would be nice to see it MQ valved or something like that. I used to own one and sold it being dumb, I loved that gun.
I think the SR was a major fail for the autococker line, the only thing good about it was how they cleaned up the front block by hiding the hoses.

Karnivor = best electro cocker ever. IMO. And some of the best milling on any gun. Also, IMO.

And you just can't beat a good mech cocker for one shot accuracy.

I really hope it comes back..
Why do peoploe hate on the SR???
its a very nice GUN maybe not ideeel for autococker seeing that you cant make it into a pump gun and there is verry few upgrades for it but still its a nice gun
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Old 06-21-2010, 03:33 PM #20
Darkapollo
 
 
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Originally Posted by Loganinderrieden23 View Post
trilly is for newer cocker owners....
SR is NOT a poor gun its a mid end at low end price might not be an ideal cocker but a very nice marker indeed
I didnt say poor gun, I said poor representation of what use to be a great company and product line.. There should have never been a low end autococker.. You dont see an 'entry level' $25,000 Ferrari do you? No. Why? Cause if you want to run with the big boys and their big toys you should already know how to handle your equipment. If say, Ford suddenly dropped all production and was bought out by Kia who then 'reintroduced' the 1978 Pinto and that is all you ever knew of Ford, its the same idea.
The SR.. what could possibly be wrong with an 'autococker' that you cant upgrade.. When i say cant upgrade, I mean with out buying a bunch of parts just so you CAN upgrade it. If you have to MAKE something upgradeable there is a problem.. I got a chance to 'admire' an SR this weekend, and I was not impressed. My yak'd karni is far and away a higher caliber gun then that. Heck, I would rather shoot my STO then the SR..

Point is, if JT/Kee were to bring anything back with the WGP AutoCocker nomenclature, it better be top notch and not some spyder clone blow back or poorly designed closed bolt.

Quote:
Why do peoploe hate on the SR???
its a very nice GUN maybe not ideeel for autococker seeing that you cant make it into a pump gun and there is verry few upgrades for it but still its a nice gun
Have you ever used a REAL autococker? It has nothing to do with being a pump, or any of that. It looks toyish, it looks cheap, it feels cheap, its covered in plastic bits, the only thing 'worthy' on it is the stock tadao board. Heck they didnt even bother to tune them right from the factory! Over on CC we get new threads all the time about brand new SRs chopping or having serious blow back, or other timing issues.
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Old 06-21-2010, 04:08 PM #21
Loganinderrieden23
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Originally Posted by Darkapollo View Post
I didnt say poor gun, I said poor representation of what use to be a great company and product line.. There should have never been a low end autococker.. You dont see an 'entry level' $25,000 Ferrari do you? No. Why? Cause if you want to run with the big boys and their big toys you should already know how to handle your equipment. If say, Ford suddenly dropped all production and was bought out by Kia who then 'reintroduced' the 1978 Pinto and that is all you ever knew of Ford, its the same idea.
The SR.. what could possibly be wrong with an 'autococker' that you cant upgrade.. When i say cant upgrade, I mean with out buying a bunch of parts just so you CAN upgrade it. If you have to MAKE something upgradeable there is a problem.. I got a chance to 'admire' an SR this weekend, and I was not impressed. My yak'd karni is far and away a higher caliber gun then that. Heck, I would rather shoot my STO then the SR..

Point is, if JT/Kee were to bring anything back with the WGP AutoCocker nomenclature, it better be top notch and not some spyder clone blow back or poorly designed closed bolt.


Have you ever used a REAL autococker? It has nothing to do with being a pump, or any of that. It looks toyish, it looks cheap, it feels cheap, its covered in plastic bits, the only thing 'worthy' on it is the stock tadao board. Heck they didnt even bother to tune them right from the factory! Over on CC we get new threads all the time about brand new SRs chopping or having serious blow back, or other timing issues.
The SR has 3 plastic parts thats it just to cover the parts on it and yes i have shot the karni very nice and the SR competes with the karni http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J3ICIlPK8M
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