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Old 11-02-2011, 05:54 PM #22
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Define credible evidence.... While obviously there are plenty of hoaxes out there on the subject, there is also a wealth of human experience that would indicate the existence of ghosts, some documented in different mediums (I will concede this does not prove anything, but it certainly provides evidence for theory). Just because current technology cannot measure it does not mean it doesnt exist.
People have experiences that they cannot explain. Having an experience that you can't explain does not grant you the right to explain it however you see fit. Maybe it does, but don't expect to be taken seriously. I suppose if enough people believe something then it becomes true right? Wrong.

People have used the "ghost" explanation for a long time. The problem is that no-one has successfully captured a ghost and identified what properties it/they have. Without such a benchmark, all a ghost hunter has is evidence of something he or she can't explain - not evidence in support of anything tangible.

The supposed "theories" of ghost hunting are all based on supposition. The idea that ghosts can draw on residual energy, can set off evp meters, can make the room cold, etc, have no basis in fact and are not based on any real evidence.

Again, just because you can't think of a way to debunk an experience, it doesn't mean you can create your own supernatural, unfalsifiable explanation for that experience. The whole ghost hunting phenomenon is a critical thinking failure of epic proportions.
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Old 11-02-2011, 08:25 PM #23
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for the two posts above, I will elaborate that I am not even trying to say THERE ARE GHOSTS. If you read my post carefully, I am simply questioning ones ability to say there are no ghosts with certainty. I do not disagree that there has been nothing as far as "proof" as defined by the scientific community, but i think that hardly would give anyone license to declare that there are no such things as ghosts (aside from personal opinion/belief).

just curious, does anyone here believe in aliens? would you put them in the same category in the scope of this thread?
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Old 11-02-2011, 08:38 PM #24
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for the two posts above, I will elaborate that I am not even trying to say THERE ARE GHOSTS. If you read my post carefully, I am simply questioning ones ability to say there are no ghosts with certainty. I do not disagree that there has been nothing as far as "proof" as defined by the scientific community, but i think that hardly would give anyone license to declare that there are no such things as ghosts (aside from personal opinion/belief).

just curious, does anyone here believe in aliens? would you put them in the same category in the scope of this thread?
I say that there are no ghosts (and God for that matter) with the same certainty that I say there are no undead vampires, unicorns, or boogiemen. And as far as Aliens go, that (As my good friend Herman would say) is comparing apples and oranges.

One is the possibility of there being other physical life forms (Which nobody even pretends to know the attributes of) elsewhere in the vast universe, which contains the same elements and conditions as here on Earth where there is already millions of life diverse and resilient forms.

The other is the possibility of Supernatural entities existing within our own world, that people use to explain phenomena they can't understand.

Edit: But the people who claim to have seen UFOs and being abducted and sodomized by anal probes do, imo, fall into the same category as the ghost hunters. There is no reason suggest that Alien life has ever visited Earth. There are only unknown or unexplainable phenomena, of which most proposed causes are merely baseless guesses fueled by imagination.
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Old 11-02-2011, 08:49 PM #25
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I say that there are no ghosts (and God for that matter) with the same certainty that I say there are no undead vampires, unicorns, or boogiemen. And as far as Aliens go, that (As my good friend Herman would say) is comparing apples and oranges.

One is the possibility of there being other physical life forms (Which nobody even pretends to know the attributes of) elsewhere in the vast universe, which contains the same elements and conditions as here on Earth where there is already millions of life diverse and resilient forms.

The other is the possibility of Supernatural entities existing within our own world, that people use to explain phenomena they can't understand.
I wouldn't say they were anywhere near apples and oranges. Both situations involve belief in something of which we have no definitive proof. Both situations have very limited circumstantial evidence (Earth like planets with no knowledge of how life spontaneously is created; experience and "ghost-science"). You really don't see how hypocritical that sounds?
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Old 11-02-2011, 08:54 PM #26
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I wouldn't say they were anywhere near apples and oranges. Both situations involve belief in something of which we have no definitive proof. Both situations have very limited circumstantial evidence (Earth like planets with no knowledge of how life spontaneously is created; experience and "ghost-science"). You really don't see how hypocritical that sounds?
One entity exists is a realm that is entirely hypothetical to begin with, while the other is a life form that would exist with the same physical properties and in the same plane of existence as we do. Alien life forms are very much different from supernatural entities like ghosts, toy making elves, and organisms which have no heart beat, reflection, or soul, but were once human (Vampires).
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Old 11-02-2011, 08:57 PM #27
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I say that there are no ghosts (and God for that matter) with the same certainty that I say there are no undead vampires, unicorns, or boogiemen. And as far as Aliens go, that (As my good friend Herman would say) is comparing apples and oranges.

One is the possibility of there being other physical life forms (Which nobody even pretends to know the attributes of) elsewhere in the vast universe, which contains the same elements and conditions as here on Earth where there is already millions of life diverse and resilient forms.

The other is the possibility of Supernatural entities existing within our own world, that people use to explain phenomena they can't understand.

Edit: But the people who claim to have seen UFOs and being abducted and sodomized by anal probes do, imo, fall into the same category as the ghost hunters. There is no reason suggest that Alien life has ever visited Earth. There are only unknown or unexplainable phenomena, of which most proposed causes are merely baseless guesses fueled by imagination.
assassin hits my point on the head.... you absolutely can compare the two. i would be willing to bet that (based on your reaction) you would be hesitant to say THERE ARE NO ALIENS despite the fact that the "proof" for both aliens and ghosts is just about the same.

i agree with your edit, but just because you have the con artists/crazies/what have you doesnt disprove the existence of ghosts or aliens.
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:01 PM #28
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Both situations involve belief in something of which we have no definitive proof
Saying we lack definitive proof is an understatement. Your statement should say "both situations involve belief in something of which we have no physical evidence whatsoever". The fact that it makes sense to people, or that it's been believed for however long, or what have you is not evidence. As I said in my previous post, all we have is supposition that was never based on evidence. There is no good reason to believe that "ghosts" are actually "spirits" of humans at all.

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If you read my post carefully, I am simply questioning ones ability to say there are no ghosts with certainty
You can't say that anything doesn't exist with complete certainly, ever. The burden of proof lies with the claimant. Until there is better evidence, "I don't know" or "probably not" are perfectly acceptable answers.
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:02 PM #29
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One entity exists is a realm that is entirely hypothetical to begin with, while the other is a life form that would exist with the same physical properties and in the same plane of existence as we do. Alien life forms are very much different from supernatural entities like ghosts, toy making elves, and organisms which have no heart beat, reflection, or soul, but were once human (Vampires).
The "realm they live in" has nothing to do with the principles in which you approach the question of their existence. If the null hypothesis relates to one, it relates to the other.

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Saying we lack definitive proof is an understatement.
Which is why I followed it with my next sentence...

1) we have no definitive proof
2) we have very little circumstantial evidence

Not sure what your point is.
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:05 PM #30
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Alien life forms are very much different from supernatural entities like ghosts, toy making elves, and organisms which have no heart beat, reflection, or soul, but were once human (Vampires).
my problem with this is you are able to make a determination about aliens when we have yet to have the opportunity to study them. i venture to guess that your opinion on ghosts is what it is due to the between them and the ideas of having a soul and religion. just my opinion anyway
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:07 PM #31
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TSA and JB, would you both agree that there is a higher probability of "life" existing on other planets than "ghosts" existing on ours?
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:12 PM #32
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TSA and JB, would you both agree that there is a higher probability of "life" existing on other planets than "ghosts" existing on ours?
I would say that with our current knowledge of our universe we can do nothing but guess. We are far from being able to make any sort of prediction on the sort.

If I had to make a sheer guess, I would say that aliens are probably more likely because while we may not know how life is created but we know it can be (because it was created here on Earth). We don't know that ghosts can be "created".
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:14 PM #33
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TSA and JB, would you both agree that there is a higher probability of "life" existing on other planets than "ghosts" existing on ours?
absolutely, but again, that was never my argument. i started this with spock's proclamation that there are, without a doubt, no ghosts. i do not disagree with most of your reasoning, where i lose you how definitive you can say there are no ghosts.
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:15 PM #34
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The "realm they live in" has nothing to do with the principles in which you approach the question of their existence. If the null hypothesis relates to one, it relates to the other.
It does matter. We have evidence of, and can observe, physical organisms here on Earth who exist in a very diverse array of environments. And while we don't have direct evidence of life on any of the planets we have discovered yet, there is still no question that physical life forms exist. Where as Ghosts or other supernatural beings have zero evidence for their existence anywhere. So I do think the realm or plane of the entity's alleged existence does matter.

Now I won't say I am certain of Alien life, but the vastness of the universe, where the conditions observed here on Earth are in all probability sure to be very closely replicated somewhere and sometime, does at the very least suggest the possibility of creating life similarly as it arose here on Earth. If all life on Earth came from elements from exploding stars, it seems likely that the process will or has occurred elsewhere in the universe as well.
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:20 PM #35
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It does matter. We have evidence of, and can observe, physical organisms here on Earth who exist in a very diverse array of environments. And while we don't have direct evidence of life on any of the planets we have discovered yet, there is still no question that physical life forms exist. Where as Ghosts or other supernatural beings have zero evidence for their existence anywhere. So I do think the realm or plane of the entity's alleged existence does matter.

Now I won't say I am certain of Alien life, but the vastness of the universe, where the conditions observed here on Earth are in all probability sure to be very closely replicated somewhere and sometime, does at the very least suggest the possibility of creating life similarly as it arose here on Earth. If all life on Earth came from elements from exploding stars, it seems likely that the process will or has occurred elsewhere in the universe as well.
so why is the argument that "well it happened here, so it probably can happen in the infinite universe" so much more convincing then "i saw my dead grandfather standing at the edge of my bed?" and lets say that the person who saw their dead grandfather is not making it up and is a completely sane individual. it is certainly an unexplained event with no physical evidence aside from an eyewitness account. as far as your concerned, the "evidence" for aliens is a statistic. why is that so much more convincing?
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:21 PM #36
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If I had to make a sheer guess, I would say that aliens are probably more likely because while we may not know how life is created but we know it can be (because it was created here on Earth). We don't know that ghosts can be "created".
That's pretty much what I was getting at, but I will agree that technically the null hypothesis does make a claim such as "Aliens exist" unverifiable. But at least we are looking in our same physical existence, and not in a hypothetical spiritual realm.

To take Wavesport's question a step further, would either of you say now that it is more likely, in the recent context of this discussion, that Aliens exist than the Christian God does? Or, as I know JB is a Christian, are Alien life forms more likely to exist than Zeus or Osiris?
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:24 PM #37
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so why is the argument that "well it happened here, so it probably can happen in the infinite universe" so much more convincing then "i saw my dead grandfather standing at the edge of my bed?" and lets say that the person who saw their dead grandfather is not making it up and is a completely sane individual. it is certainly an unexplained event with no physical evidence aside from an eyewitness account. as far as your concerned, the "evidence" for aliens is a statistic. why is that so much more convincing?
First, that post was more so in regard to why I feel the alleged realms of existence does matter in this debate.

2ndly, probability and statistics seem like more objective sources of evidence than personal interpretations and recollections of an event do from a single person. Especially given what we know about our minds and memories of events. One source of evidence is objective, albeit ultimately suggestive I'll grant you, while the other is entirely subjective.

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i venture to guess that your opinion on ghosts is what it is due to the between them and the ideas of having a soul and religion. just my opinion anyway
Nope, I just don't hold any belief in the supernatural, which happens to include gods, Ghosts, and souls. I also don't believe in unicorns if that helps.
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:29 PM #38
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First, that post was more so in regard to why I feel the alleged realms of existence does matter in this debate.

2ndly, probability and statistics seem like more objective sources of evidence than personal interpretations and recollections of an event do from a single person. Especially given what we know about our minds and memories of events. One source of evidence is objective, albeit ultimately suggestive I'll grant you, while the other is entirely subjective.
which is why i personally am more convinced of the existence of aliens. i do not think we should rule out ENTIRELY the experiences of humanity when it comes to ghosts. i think it makes a good enough argument of the possibility of their existence, and maybe we will one day have the technology to quantify it.
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:32 PM #39
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That's pretty much what I was getting at, but I will agree that technically the null hypothesis does make a claim such as "Aliens exist" unverifiable. But at least we are looking in our same physical existence, and not in a hypothetical spiritual realm.
Would it help to change terminology? Would a hypothetical overlap of universes (say from the Many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation ) be more palatable than a "spiritual" realm?

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To take Wavesport's question a step further, would either of you say now that it is more likely, in the recent context of this discussion, that Aliens exist than the Christian God does?
Just to stir the pot a bit more. Technically if we assume that the Christian God is "alive" (for any given definition of that term, and lets not go down that road today), and logically since he is supposedly older than the universe he couldn't be from this universe, and thus of course not from Earth, he'd then be by definition a extraterrestrial life form. Or if the "alive" part is too broad, an extraterrestrial intelligence.
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:32 PM #40
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which is why i personally am more convinced of the existence of aliens. i do not think we should rule out ENTIRELY the experiences of humanity when it comes to ghosts. i think it makes a good enough argument of the possibility of their existence, and maybe we will one day have the technology to quantify it.
Fair enough.
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:37 PM #41
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Would it help to change terminology? Would a hypothetical overlap of universes (say from the Many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation ) be more palatable than a "spiritual" realm
I would still protest that these "spirits from another universe" coming into our own, is entirely baseless and no more than another hypothetical guess.

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Just to stir the pot a bit more. Technically if we assume that the Christian God is "alive" (for any given definition of that term, and lets not go down that road today), and logically since he is supposedly older than the universe he couldn't be from this universe, and thus of course not from Earth, he'd then be by definition a extraterrestrial life form. Or if the "alive" part is too broad, an extraterrestrial intelligence.
Initially misread this I think (And probably have again). I guess I'll rephrase my question to be which is more likely, the Christian specific god existing, or at least one [non-divine] life form arising elsewhere inside the universe.
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Old 11-03-2011, 04:43 PM #42
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So is "this kid" your child? If he is, why the **** do you call him "this kid"?
Why not? He's my kid now. I just preferred to keep names out of it. He knows he's loved and I make sure he lives a very charmed life. What else am I supposed to be doing?

I thought we were talking about ghosts anyway. This little guy saw ghosts at the funeral homes in town but not the other houses... You don't think that's strange?
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