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Old 07-26-2012, 03:52 PM #1807
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ITT: a guy is confusing stupidity for a valid opinion on which an argument can be based.
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Old 07-26-2012, 03:56 PM #1808
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeEnterprise View Post
This is false. Please cite your source that gave you this false information.
The supreme law of the land establishing the rules and separate powers for our three branches of government

1. The "Founders" weren't a homogenous group, so don't pretend them to be as such. If they intended for our nation to be "founded" as a Christian nation, they very easily could have stated so in the Constitution.

2. You absolutely have to rely on non-legal sources to give any credence to the idea that the United States is founded as a Christian nation. One cannot simultaneously be a strict Constitutionalist and a believer that our nation is somehow founded as a Christian nation.
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Old 07-26-2012, 03:58 PM #1809
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America was founded as a Christian nation. That is a fact, and there is tons of documentation that proves it, any walk through the capital or reading of historical texts will prove this to you.
lol where's this documentation?
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Old 07-26-2012, 03:59 PM #1810
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I think the modern day liberals have done a good job convincing the American public that the founding fathers were not Christian. Maybe a few had their doubts at some points in their lives, like anyone from any religion. But, I also think that statement is such a twisted view of reality that it makes liberals look absolutely terrible.
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Old 07-26-2012, 04:01 PM #1811
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I think the modern day liberals have done a good job convincing the American public that the founding fathers were not Christian. Maybe a few had their doubts at some points in their lives, like anyone from any religion. But, I also think that statement is such a twisted view of reality that it makes liberals look absolutely terrible.
What?
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Old 07-26-2012, 04:07 PM #1812
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What is right. Nobody denies they were Christian. Yet you deny that they wanted seperation of church and state?
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Old 07-26-2012, 04:08 PM #1813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Abstract View Post
I think the modern day liberals have done a good job convincing the American public that the founding fathers were not Christian. Maybe a few had their doubts at some points in their lives, like anyone from any religion. But, I also think that statement is such a twisted view of reality that it makes liberals look absolutely terrible.
Who's saying that our Founders weren't Christian? Even if our Founders were 100% Christian (by whatever objective standard one would use to measure such an idea), our founding document explicitly devoid of any such link between the Christian religion and governance.
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Old 07-26-2012, 04:08 PM #1814
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeEnterprise View Post
This is false. Please cite your source that gave you this false information.


It is astounding the way the liberals have corrupted our culture into believing false things about our founders...

America was founded as a Christian nation. That is a fact, and there is tons of documentation that proves it, any walk through the capital or reading of historical texts will prove this to you.
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
- Thomas Jefferson

“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man”
- Thomas Jefferson

“Religions are all alike -- founded upon fables and mythologies”
- Thomas Jefferson

"My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become clearer and stronger with advancing age and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them."
- Abraham Lincoln

"The Bible is not my Book and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma."
- Abraham Lincoln.

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."
- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758.

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."
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"What have been the fruits of Christianity ? Superstition, bigotry and persecution."
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"This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it."
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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires."
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"Atheism leaves a man to sense, to philosophy, to natural piety, to laws, to reputation; all of which may be guides to an outward moral virtue, even if religion vanished; but religious superstition dismounts all these and erects an absolute monarchy in the minds of men."
- Francis Bacon

"For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope."
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Old 07-26-2012, 04:16 PM #1815
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not sure if this has been brought up yet...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...l-experts-say/

looks like chick fil a is going to easily win this in court...and they should
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Old 07-26-2012, 04:39 PM #1816
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Putting quotes around words and attributing them to a person isn't "citing" anything...

Please use proper citation...

You are welcome to cite pages on the web that properly cite where the stuff came from...


For example, you guys stated

Quote:
Originally Posted by StellarKnight View Post
If they intended for our nation to be "founded" as a Christian nation, they very easily could have stated so in the Constitution.
Why when the constitution was HOW the government would work? It seems to me that a rulebook for how to do something doesn't need the "why" included...

In fact, if you read the "why" it is clear their position in the Declaration of Independence.

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. "


citation http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/cha...ranscript.html
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Old 07-26-2012, 05:01 PM #1817
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... Just type the damn quote into google and you will get a ****ing source.

Bolding vague incoherent bits of the declaration of independence is not evidence.
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Old 07-26-2012, 05:16 PM #1818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeEnterprise View Post
In fact, if you read the "why" it is clear their position in the Declaration of Independence.
Is it, now? Nowhere in the Dec. of Independence does it make any mention of the Christian conception of God. In fact, when looking at your quote, all one can really glean is the vein of natural law pervasive at the time of the document's drafting:

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

Why "Nature's God?" Why not Jehovah, or the God of Abraham, or some other conception of God that ties it to a specific religion? Probably because of the very next paragraph:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights . . ."

Why the use of the pronoun "their"? Why not "our," or "the" Creator? The use of the pronoun "their" specifically indicates that conception of God resides exclusively with the individual and that this nation recognizes as such. Again, had the intent been to found a Christian nation, there would be unquestionable proof of such. You're relying on vague inference.
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Old 07-26-2012, 06:47 PM #1819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeEnterprise View Post
This is false. Please cite your source that gave you this false information.


It is astounding the way the liberals have corrupted our culture into believing false things about our founders...

America was founded as a Christian nation. That is a fact, and there is tons of documentation that proves it, any walk through the capital or reading of historical texts will prove this to you.
Please see the above quotes. It's a pretty widely-accepted piece of knowledge that the founding fathers were, by a vast majority, Deist. From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism):

Deism in the United States

Thomas Paine
In the United States, Enlightenment philosophy (which itself was heavily inspired by deist ideals) played a major role in creating the principle of religious freedom, expressed in Thomas Jefferson's letters and included in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. American Founding Fathers, or Framers of the Constitution, who were especially noted for being influenced by such philosophy include Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, and Hugh Williamson. Their political speeches show distinct deistic influence.

Other notable Founding Fathers may have been more directly deist. These include James Madison, possibly Alexander Hamilton, Ethan Allen,[44] and Thomas Paine (who published The Age of Reason, a treatise that helped to popularize deism throughout the USA and Europe).

A major contributor was Elihu Palmer (17641806), who wrote the "Bible" of American deism in his Principles of Nature (1801) and attempted to organize deism by forming the "Deistical Society of New York".

In the United States there is controversy over whether the Founding Fathers were Christians, deists, or something in between.[45][46] Particularly heated is the debate over the beliefs of Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington.[47][48][49]

Benjamin Franklin wrote in his autobiography, "Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist. My arguments perverted some others, particularly Collins and Ralph; but each of them having afterwards wrong'd me greatly without the least compunction, and recollecting Keith's conduct towards me (who was another freethinker) and my own towards Vernon and Miss Read, which at times gave me great trouble, I began to suspect that this doctrine, tho' it might be true, was not very useful."[50][51] Franklin also wrote that "the Deity sometimes interferes by his particular Providence, and sets aside the Events which would otherwise have been produc'd in the Course of Nature, or by the Free Agency of Man.[52] He later stated, in the Constitutional Convention, that "the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men."[53]

For his part, Thomas Jefferson is perhaps one of the Founding Fathers with the most outspoken of Deist tendencies, though he is not known to have called himself a deist, generally referring to himself as a Unitarian. In particular, his treatment of the Biblical gospels which he titled The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, but which subsequently became more commonly known as the Jefferson Bible, exhibits a strong deist tendency of stripping away all supernatural and dogmatic references from the Christ story. However, Frazer, following the lead of Sydney Ahlstrom, characterizes Jefferson as not a Deist but a "theistic rationalist", because Jefferson believed in God's continuing activity in human affairs.[54][55] Frazer cites Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia, where he wrote, "I tremble" at the thought that "God is just," and he warned of eventual "supernatural influence" to abolish the scourge of slavery.[56][57]



I'm not entirely sure how you can refute the above. You claim that all of it is false, and I'm assuming that there is some grand conspiracy against Christianity by liberal media. Sorry, but you're just wrong. I'm really not a liberal, but I am a realist and I do believe in de-propagandizing the war against homosexuals in this country.
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Old 07-26-2012, 06:48 PM #1820
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anyone who thinks gay people shouldnt be allowed to get married need to gtfo this country and move to north korea.
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That comment is against everything this country was founded on.
This country is a lot different than it was when it was founded. Should we bring back slavery?
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:20 PM #1821
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What you've shown is the founding fathers to be against the institutions that have developed around Christianity over 1700 years until their drafting of the Constitution. This in no way means that they were not "Christians", when in fact they very well could have their own personal understanding of the Christian God which differed from the mainstream Church of England or Roman Catholic Church. This is a very big difference that many of you are failing to understand. All evidence points to their God as the "Christian" God. Tell me, were the founding fathers known to attend church?
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:20 PM #1822
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:55 PM #1823
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This country is a lot different than it was when it was founded. Should we bring back slavery?
If you really want to, sure.

I take it you never heard the story about the first Constitution, and how it was ****canned.
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:56 PM #1824
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What you've shown is the founding fathers to be against the institutions that have developed around Christianity over 1700 years until their drafting of the Constitution. This in no way means that they were not "Christians", when in fact they very well could have their own personal understanding of the Christian God which differed from the mainstream Church of England or Roman Catholic Church. This is a very big difference that many of you are failing to understand. All evidence points to their God as the "Christian" God. Tell me, were the founding fathers known to attend church?
Dude, nobody denies that some of the founding fathers were christian. You're arguing against a straw man.
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Old 07-26-2012, 08:08 PM #1825
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If you really want to, sure.

I take it you never heard the story about the first Constitution, and how it was ****canned.
Either way, the USA is a lot different than it originally was, for the better. Blacks/women can vote, blacks/whites can marry. Gay people can openly serve in the military, which to me doesn't really matter either way (as I'm sure it doesn't matter that much to you) But being discharged JUST for being gay is dumb. And if this country was founded without separation of church and state, whoever changed that was a genius.
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Old 07-26-2012, 08:21 PM #1826
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Whoah whoah whoah. Slow your role.

There are some problems with what you wrote... but I really lost all motivation to point them out and provide you with the proper information so you could gain something else from our conversation.
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Old 07-26-2012, 08:23 PM #1827
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Whoah whoah whoah. Slow your role.

There are some problems with what you wrote... but I really lost all motivation to point them out and provide you with the proper information so you could gain something else from our conversation.
what was wrong with what I wrote? I DO think you know more about this topic, so fill me in so I can be a smarterer person. :nododgy:
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