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Old 05-24-2012, 10:39 AM #883
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The punishment for sodomy during the time of our forefathers was execution. I highly doubt they intended for gay-marriage to be allowed.

Regardless, you're not going to find much, if any, support for that belief, within or outside of the gay community.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:40 AM #884
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Because uncontainted peasants will revolt against everything to get their way. Round and round we go.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:42 AM #885
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Why would you try to force a violent conflict if you knew you were going to be crushed and labeled as heretics? Going out Koresh style?
"I do not know whether it is to yourself or Mr. Adams I am to give my thanks for the copy of the new constitution. I beg leave through you to place them where due. It will be yet three weeks before I shall receive them from America. There are very good articles in it: and very bad. I do not know which preponderate. What we have lately read in the history of Holland, in the chapter on the Stadtholder, would have sufficed to set me against a Chief magistrate eligible for a long duration, if I had ever been disposed towards one: and what we have always read of the elections of Polish kings should have forever excluded the idea of one continuable for life. Wonderful is the effect of impudent and persevering lying. The British ministry have so long hired their gazetteers to repeat and model into every form lies about our being in anarchy, that the world has at length believed them, the English nation has believed them, the ministers themselves have come to believe them, and what is more wonderful, we have believed them ourselves. Yet where does this anarchy exist? Where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusets? And can history produce an instance of a rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be 20. years without such a rebellion.[1] The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independant 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century and a half for each state. What country ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure. Our Convention has been too much impressed by the insurrection of Massachusets: and in the spur of the moment they are setting up a kite to keep the hen yard in order. I hope in god this article will be rectified before the new constitution is accepted." - Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, Paris, 13 Nov. 1787[2]
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"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man - Thomas Jefferson

A democracy is, two wolves and a sheep voting on dinner.
A republic is, two sheep and a wolf voting on dinner.
A constitutional republic is, voting on dinner is expressly forbidden and the sheep are armed.

Armed gays don't get bashed - www.pinkpistols.org

ssgaR: 'faith is the path of least resistance'."

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Old 05-24-2012, 10:48 AM #886
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"In 1777, Thomas Jefferson and others worked on a proposed new criminal code for Virginia in anticipation of the success of the American Revolution. The proposed new sodomy law would have eliminated the death penalty and replaced it with castration for males and the boring of a hole through the nose of a woman. The proposal did not become law, but clearly showed that women were subject to prosecution under current legal thinking.27

In 1792, when Virginia enacted its first sodomy law,28 it still was not ready for the removal of the death penalty. The law did, however, make certain that women were liable to prosecution. The new law read

That if any do commit the detestable and abominable vice of Buggery, with man or beast, he or she so offending, shall be adjudged a felon, and shall suffer death, in the case of felony, without the benefit of Clergy.29"

So please, enough with the forefathers nonsense.

Last edited by SupraSuper : 05-24-2012 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:59 AM #887
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"I do not know whether it is to yourself or Mr. Adams I am to give my thanks for the copy of the new constitution. I beg leave through you to place them where due. It will be yet three weeks before I shall receive them from America. There are very good articles in it: and very bad. I do not know which preponderate. What we have lately read in the history of Holland, in the chapter on the Stadtholder, would have sufficed to set me against a Chief magistrate eligible for a long duration, if I had ever been disposed towards one: and what we have always read of the elections of Polish kings should have forever excluded the idea of one continuable for life. Wonderful is the effect of impudent and persevering lying. The British ministry have so long hired their gazetteers to repeat and model into every form lies about our being in anarchy, that the world has at length believed them, the English nation has believed them, the ministers themselves have come to believe them, and what is more wonderful, we have believed them ourselves. Yet where does this anarchy exist? Where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusets? And can history produce an instance of a rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be 20. years without such a rebellion.[1] The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independant 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century and a half for each state. What country ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure. Our Convention has been too much impressed by the insurrection of Massachusets: and in the spur of the moment they are setting up a kite to keep the hen yard in order. I hope in god this article will be rectified before the new constitution is accepted." - Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, Paris, 13 Nov. 1787[2]
You're comparing a "gay rights revolt" to our nation's fight for independence?
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:09 AM #888
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They're both about civil liberties and oppression from a majority rule without equal representation.

It's not such a stretch. It's a cause worth fighting for.
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:10 AM #889
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They're both about civil liberties and oppression from a majority rule without equal representation.

It's not such a stretch. It's a cause worth fighting for.
Yeah but the scale and conditions are entirely different.
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:18 AM #890
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Yeah but the scale and conditions are entirely different.
A civil right is a civil right, regardless of conditions or scale.
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"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man - Thomas Jefferson

A democracy is, two wolves and a sheep voting on dinner.
A republic is, two sheep and a wolf voting on dinner.
A constitutional republic is, voting on dinner is expressly forbidden and the sheep are armed.

Armed gays don't get bashed - www.pinkpistols.org

ssgaR: 'faith is the path of least resistance'."

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Old 05-24-2012, 11:22 AM #891
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A civil right is a civil right, regardless of conditions or scale.
I'm not debating it's a civil right, but the comparison is flawed. Still doesn't address the fact that you'd end up being disowned by the gay community for your approach.
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:24 AM #892
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Serious question. Where do civil rights end? What constitutes a civil right? Desire?
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:26 AM #893
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Equality.
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"Originally posted by visualx: hey everyone, look at me. i call people poor though i make absolutely nothing; brag about my job as an intern or some ****; hate on people for not being fat like me; and absolutely never have any idea what i'm talking about, though i always have a ****ing righteous indignation with everything i say! aren't i ****ing amazing?! do you all like me yet?! oh, you know that hate is just a guise! good thing i have a ****ing amazing life! now let me go **** my fat girlfriend and cry myself to sleep"
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:27 AM #894
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I'm not debating it's a civil right, but the comparison is flawed. Still doesn't address the fact that you'd end up being disowned by the gay community for your approach.
You might be suprised about that. I suspect I have a much better insite into the gay community than you do.
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"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man - Thomas Jefferson

A democracy is, two wolves and a sheep voting on dinner.
A republic is, two sheep and a wolf voting on dinner.
A constitutional republic is, voting on dinner is expressly forbidden and the sheep are armed.

Armed gays don't get bashed - www.pinkpistols.org

ssgaR: 'faith is the path of least resistance'."

Rapier7: Don't be a douche
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:27 AM #895
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I had a feeling. Man that's a dangerous road to go down.
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:29 AM #896
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You might be suprised about that. I suspect I have a much better insite into the gay community than you do.
Has violence kept gay people down?

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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
I had a feeling. Man that's a dangerous road to go down.
Equality?
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"Originally posted by visualx: hey everyone, look at me. i call people poor though i make absolutely nothing; brag about my job as an intern or some ****; hate on people for not being fat like me; and absolutely never have any idea what i'm talking about, though i always have a ****ing righteous indignation with everything i say! aren't i ****ing amazing?! do you all like me yet?! oh, you know that hate is just a guise! good thing i have a ****ing amazing life! now let me go **** my fat girlfriend and cry myself to sleep"
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:33 AM #897
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Has violence kept gay people down?
In fact violence in the past has brought freedom. Look to the "stonewall" riots as a example.
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"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man - Thomas Jefferson

A democracy is, two wolves and a sheep voting on dinner.
A republic is, two sheep and a wolf voting on dinner.
A constitutional republic is, voting on dinner is expressly forbidden and the sheep are armed.

Armed gays don't get bashed - www.pinkpistols.org

ssgaR: 'faith is the path of least resistance'."

Rapier7: Don't be a douche
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:34 AM #898
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In fact violence in the past has brought freedom. Look to the "stonewall" riots as a example.
You're not talking about rioting.
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:34 AM #899
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If youre sole argument for something is equality, where does it end and how can anyone draw lines? Its a bad argument on its own. I can pick the most degenerative practice, say incest, get enough people to scream equality and win.

This whole civil rights thing is almost circular logic.
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:35 AM #900
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Originally Posted by F1VENOM

Has violence kept gay people down?

Equality?
Violence keeps gays down in my town I come from a small catholic town. Gays get bashed and all that ****.
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:37 AM #901
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Violence keeps gays down in my town I come from a small catholic town. Gays get bashed and all that ****.
Remember my brother the motto of the Pink Pistols...

Armed gays don't get bashed. Get your CCW, and carry with pride.
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"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man - Thomas Jefferson

A democracy is, two wolves and a sheep voting on dinner.
A republic is, two sheep and a wolf voting on dinner.
A constitutional republic is, voting on dinner is expressly forbidden and the sheep are armed.

Armed gays don't get bashed - www.pinkpistols.org

ssgaR: 'faith is the path of least resistance'."

Rapier7: Don't be a douche
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:38 AM #902
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If youre sole argument for something is equality, where does it end and how can anyone draw lines? Its a bad argument on its own. I can pick the most degenerative practice, say incest, get enough people to scream equality and win.

This whole civil rights thing is almost circular logic.
It ends when everyone's equal in the eyes of the government?

You have fun rallying the troops with that cause. The only rationale against gay marriage is religiously based and you're trying to skew this into a conversation about incest which isn't illegal everywhere.

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Violence keeps gays down in my town I come from a small catholic town. Gays get bashed and all that ****.
Do you think the proper response should be violence the other way?
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:41 AM #903
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You're not talking about rioting.
Violence is always a option that should be examined. It must never be removed from the table as the final solution to a problem when the other side will not bend or give a inch.

In this case, religious people are the problem, they need to be reminded of their place as citizens and humans, not some construct of some mythical ghost in the clouds.
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"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man - Thomas Jefferson

A democracy is, two wolves and a sheep voting on dinner.
A republic is, two sheep and a wolf voting on dinner.
A constitutional republic is, voting on dinner is expressly forbidden and the sheep are armed.

Armed gays don't get bashed - www.pinkpistols.org

ssgaR: 'faith is the path of least resistance'."

Rapier7: Don't be a douche
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