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Old 10-27-2011, 04:53 PM #43
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Politicians are generally very uneducated in the sciences and the only thing anyone chooses to do is ignore the evidence which strongly supports the statement that animals are gay due to that which they cannot control. It's an abnormality, but by no means a choice. It's really not worth arguing it with people who believe in imaginary friends.
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Old 10-27-2011, 04:59 PM #44
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What about imaginary theories which no one can prove or replicate? Or the laws of biology which state facts and not fiction. As you say... science dictates that it is an abnormality in the vivid sense of something deviating from the normal or differing from the typical (such as an aberration), is a subjectively defined behavioral. So by that... is it acceptable for one to be a pedophile???? It is classified by behavioral scientists as a sexual preference.
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Old 10-27-2011, 05:11 PM #45
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I wasn't trying to be a tough guy, I was just pointing out the ludicrous nature of saying that someone claimed to be the smartest person in the world. My first thought if I heard someone claim that would be: "idiot". So idiotic that he sounds fictional.

I bring up the fact that you're a Christian because I only see the argument you've made come from the devoutly religious... it's as if they're the only group capable of deluding themselves enough to see Pedophilia and Homosexuality as even tangentially related.

You wanted it, so here's my response to your question. If such a person exists and actually made that statement, he is wrong and as the self-proclaimed smartest person in the world he should know it. Children that haven't sexually matured (as the targets of a pedophile wouldn't have) aren't emotionally or intellectually capable of understanding the consequences of these decisions, and therefore aren't able to make them. So comparing homosexuality to pedophilia is a non-sequitur, by virtue of the fact that the relationship cannot be between consenting individuals. Sex between an adult and a child will always be rape, and I'm confident in saying that every respectable sociologist and psychologist agrees with me.

So now that I've answered your question, I'd like you to answer mine. If homosexuality is a choice, then it's a choice you should be able to make. Ask yourself honestly, would you be able to choose to have sex with a man and enjoy it? (not that there's anything wrong with that)
In response to this... he claimed to have a high IQ and dwelled on this the whole class. I for one thought as you do... he was absolutely out of his mind. But by him being a Dr. of Psychiatry he is the one making the rules and not me or you. These guys write the books and we fallow in line and are supposed to accept this blindly because of his education and his ability to write books. Your opinion does not matter as this guy was making the rules and stating them. Also on the same note... my opinion does not matter either... as I do not have a phd in Psychiatry.... but he did. Again... people insult me for puting my faith in a book... but the same can be said about those who put their faith in the same but in books which are written by men who are so called educated. It is deductive reasoning.

Now speeking from personal experience in counseling... I have found that 90% of those who I have sat down and spoken with that are in fact homosexual had an experience with the same sex when they were a child during the developental stages of social behavior. Which leads me to believe that it can have an effect on sexual preference. So believe as you wish... I base mine on fact and experience... not on books written by men except without first doing my homework on the subject.

P.S.... who decides who is respectible in sociology and psychiatry... certainly not us as we do not have degree's in either of them. He did and had people with the same degree's backing him up. Also again... I never brought my faith into this subject but would like to point out you did. My psycology professor was the one who stated that pedo's love children as adults love each other. So again... leave religion out of this discussion.

One thing I would like to point out as well if you take this as Volucris stated above from a so called scientific aproach... animals do not distiguish between children and adults. We as a society dictate what is acceptable and what is not... so with that said... your statement of children being to young to engage in sex could be scientifically classified as wrong. Scientifically if the child can reproduce they can in fact engage in sex. For me however... I throw morality into it... from a moral perspective and not a scientific perspective... I find it sickening and demented.
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Old 10-27-2011, 05:27 PM #46
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Originally Posted by saint View Post
What about imaginary theories which no one can prove or replicate? Or the laws of biology which state facts and not fiction. As you say... science dictates that it is an abnormality in the vivid sense of something deviating from the normal or differing from the typical (such as an aberration), is a subjectively defined behavioral. So by that... is it acceptable for one to be a pedophile???? It is classified by behavioral scientists as a sexual preference.
You can't prove anything. Status as a theory means NO evidence has come forth to disprove it. Laws generalize a body of observations; something with no exceptions aka gravity. Homosexuality is an abnormality in the sense that it does not increase fitness of the organism...it makes it less fit because it does not successfully reproduce nor strive to. For ****'s sake, have you ever bothered to learn some sciences or did you sleep through basic biology in high school too? The definition of a law and theory are two things you should know before you graduate the first time. Far too often your "kind" is seen dismissing laws and theories as "hurr they're just laws or theories from scientists!".



I'm not going to discuss pedophilia within this thread for two reasons:
1. You're just trying to use it with your religious bull **** to make homosexuality look as evil as pedophilia.
2. It has plenty of scientific reasoning it behind it that you will ignore because of religion.

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Old 10-27-2011, 05:35 PM #47
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You can't prove anything. Status as a theory means NO evidence has come forth to disprove it. Laws generalize a body of observations; something with no exceptions aka gravity. Homosexuality is an abnormality in the sense that it does not increase fitness of the organism...it makes it less fit because it does not successfully reproduce nor strive to. For ****'s sake, have you ever bothered to learn some sciences or did you sleep through basic biology in high school too? The definition of a law and theory are two things you should know before you graduate the first time. Far too often your "kind" is seen dismissing laws and theories as "hurr they're just laws or theories from scientists!".



I'm not going to discuss pedophilia within this thread for two reasons:
1. You're just trying to use it with your religious bull **** to make homosexuality look as evil as pedophilia.
2. It has plenty of scientific reasoning it behind it that you will ignore because of religion.
Again.. leave religion out of it. It has nothing to do with this subject and I have not brought it up. YOu have. Sorry but premordial soup is a hypothosis and has nothing to do with fact. It can not be proven nor disproven. It can not also be replicated or even come close to being replicated. I mearly asked the question... if homosexuality is classified as a sexual preference can being a pedo be the same? According to my psycology professor... it is. This is not a moral dilema so leave morality out of it. Also I never stated that homosexuality was evil. On a moral perspective... I find it unacceptable... but my morals are not other peoples morals and should be left to them to decide. Also why would you state pedophilia as evil? according the one psychiatrist... it is ok. I don't think so... but I am not a psychiatrist.

Sorry for the mix up as I am multitasking... is this a moral issue or a scientific issue? If it is strictly scientific... .then I will leav my moral opinions out of it as my morality is not the same as everyones and vice versa.
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Old 10-27-2011, 06:17 PM #48
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Wow... a so called intelectual insult or attemp at that. Answer the question or stay out of it... your choice. His name was Dr. Croy and taught at CMC in JT California. His wife was also head of the morongo unfied school districts dept for special ed.
I cannot find a Dr. Croy at Claremont McKenna College, is this the correct one? A full name would help in the search.

http://www.cmc.edu/academic/faculty/

I have a difficult time believing someone in his field would say this. As an academic, if he holds this position then he has published it, so finding a source would help me believe you're not making this up. It sounds like something straight out of a Jesus camp bible circle.

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My psycology professor was the one who stated that pedo's love children as adults love each other.
Apart from the fact that I can't determine whether or not said person even exists,

1.) You're not supposed to take anything anyone says for granted. You're supposed to challenge anything that's incoherent with reality with fact-based evidence.
2.) I highly doubt your 90% figure, and as has been shown in the literature the genetic markers that predispose people to either pedophilia or homosexuality are different.
R. Langevin. A comparison of neuroendocrine and genetic factors in homosexuality and in pedophilia. Sexual Abuse: A Journal of Research and Treatment
(1993) pp. 67-76
Url: http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/BF00849746
Doi: 10.1007/BF00849746

Abstract:
Homosexual (androphilic) and pedophilic men differ in a number of ways and two sets of differences are discussed in this presentation. Results from the literature suggests that there are neurological and endocrine abnormalities in pedophilia but not in androphilia. In contrast, some research suggests that homosexuality may have a genetic basis, whereas there is no evidence to date for a genetic factor in pedophilia.

Edit:
Speaking of psychologists, here's what one from UC Davis has to say on the topic of pedophilia and homosexuality.

Quote:
The Mainstream
View Reflecting the results of these and other studies, the mainstream view among researchers and professionals who work in the area of child sexual abuse is that homosexual and bisexual men do not pose any special threat to children. For example, in one review of the scientific literature, noted authority Dr. A. Nicholas Groth wrote:

Are homosexual adults in general sexually attracted to children and are preadolescent children at greater risk of molestation from homosexual adults than from heterosexual adults? There is no reason to believe so. The research to date all points to there being no significant relationship between a homosexual lifestyle and child molestation. There appears to be practically no reportage of sexual molestation of girls by lesbian adults, and the adult male who sexually molests young boys is not likely to be homosexual (Groth & Gary, 1982, p. 147).

In a more recent literature review, Dr. Nathaniel McConaghy (1998) similarly cautioned against confusing homosexuality with pedophilia. He noted, "The man who offends against prepubertal or immediately postpubertal boys is typically not sexually interested in older men or in women" (p. 259).

This well known lack of a linkage between homosexuality and child molestation accounts for why relatively little research has directly addressed the issue. Proving something we already know simply isn't a priority. Indeed, a commentary that accompanied publication of the 1994 study by Jenny et al. in Pediatrics noted that debates about gay people as molesters "have little to do with everyday child abuse" and lamented that they distract lawmakers and the public from dealing with the real problem of children's sexual mistreatment (Krugman, 1994).
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbo...lestation.html
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:40 PM #49
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that's rather stupid and ignorant to say

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosex...ior_in_animals


however I'm only away of one species that has a distinct phobia of it.
How is it stupid or ignorant? From a strictly scientific standpoint, homosexuality is not a natural preference. I have nothing against gay people, but you can't argue with the fact that two men can't reproduce.

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1) Of course it's arguable. I stay neutral on the issue, and I definitely believe there are some chemical imbalances that take place at birth, but the science behind both arguments are not only shady but completely secondary at best, and for me that's not good enough to make a judgement that someone is fully born gay.
Do you choose to like women? No, you are just wired to be attracted to them. Gay people are no different. Again, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but to claim it's a choice is ignorant.
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:42 PM #50
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if homosexuality is classified as a sexual preference can being a pedo be the same? .
How can you sit there and make this comparison? You are comparing a relationship between two consenting adults to pedophilia.
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Old 10-27-2011, 08:02 PM #51
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How can you sit there and make this comparison? You are comparing a relationship between two consenting adults to pedophilia.
Refer to his user title.
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Old 10-27-2011, 08:27 PM #52
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How can you sit there and make this comparison? You are comparing a relationship between two consenting adults to pedophilia.
Simple. He's referring to the unorthodox sexual attraction. One might argue that it is more natural to be attracted to a younger person than a person of the same sex. Either way you have to be messed up in the head imo.
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Old 10-27-2011, 08:54 PM #53
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So are pedophiles ok???? or are they sick in the head. I for one believe they are sick but one can make the arguement that it is a sexual preference. Also for the sickening part of this is that when I was taking Sociology the psychiatrist who was teaching the class said that he found it ok for an adult to have sex with a child as long as the child did not protest... now he claimed to be the smartest guy on the planet but I beg to differ... so who is right and who is wrong? I have made my stance and have concluded that homosexuality is wrong just as a person is wrong for their desire to have sex with a child. Just my thoughts on the issue.
Prove to me that a 40 year old man giving a blow job to a 50 year old man is the same as pedophilia.

You can't. I know you used some sociology experience you had in your life, but I'd bet my life your opinions on this matter stem from an overdose of JESUS.

Seahawk, I've seen firsthand the BS gay bros have had to deal with. I tell them all to buy a gun and train with it. It's not a game for them. It's life and death, especially depending on where you live. It's no coincidence homos flock to the city where they are more accepted in society. I live in a small rural town and most everyone here hates the gays.

Here's the thing, the sooner we accept homos and make them equals, the sooner us straight guys can quit talking about HOMOSEXUALITY.
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Old 10-27-2011, 09:05 PM #54
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Here's the thing, the sooner we accept homos and make them equals, the sooner us straight guys can quit talking about HOMOSEXUALITY.
Plus there's the added bonus that there's no better wingman than a gay guy.
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Old 10-27-2011, 09:13 PM #55
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Simple. He's referring to the unorthodox sexual attraction. One might argue that it is more natural to be attracted to a younger person than a person of the same sex. Either way you have to be messed up in the head imo.
No genius we're talking about rule of law here. A child is under 18 so they can't consent. If two adults want to be together, the only thing that's standing between them is a long line of nosy-*** Christians.

BTW I love the whole "get the government out of XX, just so long as I can impose my archaic morals on everybody else!" sentiment.
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Old 10-27-2011, 09:39 PM #56
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there should be at least two references to polygamy or beastiality by now

step up your game religious right
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Old 10-27-2011, 11:17 PM #57
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If being gay is caused by genetics, and we are approaching cures of genetic diseases with gene therapy, the logic goes we could eradicate homosexuality if we so chose. Now, I dont understand the science that goes into that but are all these arguments pointless?
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Old 10-27-2011, 11:51 PM #58
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If being gay is caused by genetics
It's not, or more specifically, not only. Gene therapy would not be useful for changing orientation.
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Old 10-27-2011, 11:59 PM #59
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Basically it boils down to this:

Science: who or what you have sex with is a sexual orientation

Morality: who or what you have sex with is what you believe to be moral

Religious: who or what you have sex with is right or wrong dependent on belief
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Old 10-28-2011, 12:04 AM #60
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So is it your Morality or Religion that compares homosexuality to pedophilia?
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Old 10-28-2011, 12:12 AM #61
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Plus there's the added bonus that there's no better wingman than a gay guy.
This is true, girls love them. They also come in handy before you go out to make sure you don't look like a bum. One of my best friends is a fashion design major and picks out what I wear on dates, he has been spot on every single time. He hooks me up with girls and I hook him up with guys so everybody wins and gets laid at the end of the night (that's all the really matters, isn't it?).
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Old 10-28-2011, 12:14 AM #62
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I would consider both an abnormality from a scientific standpoint.

I get my morals from my upbringing which see both as not acceptable

From a religious standpoint.... they are both not kosher.

Taken from "The American Journal of Psychiatry"


"pedophilia, too, can be thought of as a sexual orientation that is different from others on the basis of age of attraction. As with other sexual orientations, irrespective of the relative contributions of genetics and environment, maturing individuals discover the nature of their own attractions; such attractions are not the consequence of a volitional decision."

I do not agree with it... but hey... what do I know... they write the books. I do not.
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Old 10-28-2011, 12:40 AM #63
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I love how you dislike that "they write the books" and yet you defer to "them" completely. It's as if you don't have an original thought in your head.

Quote mining, original. Does the Bible have a play book for this sort of thing? If it does, I must have missed it when I read it.

Let's pull the full quote, shall we?
Quote:
The Journal recently published a "Position Statement on Psychiatric Treatment and Sexual Orientation" that had been approved by the Board of Trustees of the American Psychiatric Association (1). That statement correctly cautions mental health professionals that there is little scientific evidence to support the efficacy of treatments designed to change sexual orientation. That statement was intended to address the matter of homosexuality and to take a clear stand "against discrimination, prejudice, and unethical treatment..., including discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation" (p. 1131).

The psychiatric profession still correctly considers pedophilia to be a mental disorder. However, like heterosexuality and homosexuality (orientations that differ from one another on the basis of differences in sexual attraction), pedophilia, too, can be thought of as a sexual orientation that is different from others on the basis of age of attraction. As with other sexual orientations, irrespective of the relative contributions of genetics and environment, maturing individuals discover the nature of their own attractions; such attractions are not the consequence of a volitional decision. Historically, untold numbers of human beings have been both demonized and vilified simply because their sexual makeups differ from the norm.

In the case of pedophilia, society must insist, for good reason, that persons who are sexually attracted to children are forbidden from acting on these attractions. As with alcoholism, such persons need to have access to effective treatments that can enable them to successfully resist succumbing to unacceptable temptations. However, just as has been the case historically with homosexuality, society is currently addressing the matter of pedophilia with a balance that is far more heavily weighted on the side of criminal justice solutions than on the side of mental health solutions.
All he's saying is it is one method of discriminating preference, and points out that he is NOT basing this view of pedohilia being an orientation from factors of whether it is genetic or environmental. He's ignoring that point.


I'd still like to hear back about Dr. Croy, though.
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