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Old 10-26-2011, 12:25 PM #1
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Merger? What would you do?

John posted this in the news section-

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Originally Posted by John View Post
There has been a lot of talk about what kind of competitive paintball should be played next year. The leagues are still talking about a possible merger but since nothing has been decided, it is time to make yourself heard. You can vote for more than one option if you must.

Vote and share it so your friends can vote too.

If you have the PSP badge and actually play the PSP, you can also vote here in the private PSP forum.

Keep two leagues: PSP and NPPL each have something to offer
NPPL 7-Man (no coaching)
PSP 5-Man RaceTo (coaching)
PSP style RaceTo with more than 5 players on the field (coaching)
NPPL style with less than 7 players on the field (no coaching)
I don't care, just merge the leagues already, I'll play any of it.
Just get rid of coaching and I'll play it.
Just make sure it uses the point system and I'll play it.

If you have another option that is important to you, post it below! If it is popular enough, I'll even add it.
What would your ideal merger be?

What are the pro's and con's of your/other peoples suggestions?

This is not a vs. thread lets keep it that way, voicing an opinion and *****ing are two different things.
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Old 10-26-2011, 01:15 PM #2
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The two ideas I like that I've heard tossed around are

1. Less nationals and more regional feeder series. Say one or two events a month locally for cheap and you play for entry/paint to the 'big show', cutting the series down to say... 2 or 3 events would really hype them up. Paul at canobie (rip canobie) had the idea down fairly well, alot of people wanted more big games and alot of fields tried like a once a month big game but nobody could get the huge numbers he did during his 2 big games (he did go to three towards the end, wich may have had something to do with the economy.. idk)

This would let the leagues put alot of focus on these two event's, pulling any weight they might have towards tv deals, paying for the 'key' locations that nppl is so fond of and affording the best ref's/training... The list goes on but you get the idea, make them two un-topable (is that a word?) events like a season opener and a huge cup/championship event

2. The other idea I liked was do more national events at cheaper locations with a big finish. Say there were 6 events (no specific order)

Cali
Texas
Northwest
Midwest
Florida
Northeast

But you could have only your best 3 tourney scores go up on the board, this way you could either be rich and kind of 'buy' your way in by playing a ton of events and getting great scores or you could be 'skilled' and just play the few events that are close to you or cheaper. Then the last big event of the year could have championship brackets (think b.o.n.e. or similar) and the best of the best duke it out while the rest are just there to play in paintballs biggest tournament.

The pro bracket for this idea would def play all events, people want to meet/watch pro's. This would also make it affordable for a fan to go see atleast one if not more nationals at a reasonable cost (probly something within driving distance)


As far as the format issue I'd like to see 7 man, no coaching, capped semi, 7 man field size, but more layouts like what psp gets. Blind tapes and set up for big moves. Also the 0-100 point system seems archaic, it should be like most other sports with x time on the clock and you keep playing untill times up, one point at a time per flag hang (center flag is less walking so we'll go with that). Also I like real penalty boxes and score boards. Crowd participation is a must, if you want a coach put him in with the crowd, but fan's (of wich we have few to none outside the sport) want to yell and scream and root on the home team ect. ect.. If we want this to go anywhere it has to be fun for them, once that happens the rest falls into place.
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Old 10-26-2011, 01:57 PM #3
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Format

I'm curious why people want RaceTo basically using 7 people on the field?

Here's my arguments for 5 on the field.

It's easier to get new teams playing because you really only need 5 guys. Aftershock ended up playing their last match at Cup with only 6. The jump from 3-man beginner teams to 5-man isn't all that steep, and you can continue to compete without requiring a whole lot of people. Making it easier for new teams to play the merged league should be a high priority.

Most of the big, national leagues around the world use a form of 5-man as their main formats.
PSP
NCPA
Millennium
PALs
CXBL

Millennium (Europe), PSP (NA), PALs (Asia) are all bringing in 550+ teams from at least 18 different countries competing just in their final event alone. The largest 7-man league out there is the NPPL (NA), and I'm pretty sure for the whole year they will only get 450 teams (some of those 5-man teams). More people around the world play a form of 5-man, it wouldn't be logical to completely ignore that.

Sure, I suppose you could just have semi-pro and pro divisions 7-man, and the rest 5-man... But how do you scrimmage each other? Why use something completely different from the majority of the players that play in that league? Why not just have one uniform format all down the line - sure, add more time or points to score as you go up, but don't require more people on the field.

From a spectators standpoint it's easier to follow 10 people on a field versus 14. And by only having 10, it also makes it easier for the webcasters to follow and announce what's going on.

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Originally Posted by shock2k3 View Post

Also the 0-100 point system seems archaic, it should be like most other sports with x time on the clock and you keep playing until times up, one point at a time per flag hang (center flag is less walking so we'll go with that).

Also I like real penalty boxes and score boards. Crowd participation is a must, if you want a coach put him in with the crowd, but fan's (of which we have few to none outside the sport) want to yell and scream and root on the home team ect. ect.. If we want this to go anywhere it has to be fun for them, once that happens the rest falls into place.
I completely agree with you on the 0-100 point system, it promotes way too much margin of error. Coaching on at least the spectator side should be allowed. It's ridiculous needing extra staff on the side lines telling people to be quiet. And if someone yells out anyway, benefiting one team, what are you going to do? Pull a major on the spectator? Here buddy, sit in time out for 2 minutes of game time. Coaching isn't as evil as everyone points it out to be, hell, I used to be completely against xball style of play, until I played it. I'm pretty sure those advocating against it, simply hasnt given it a chance or hasn't seen the extremely exciting matches on the PSP webcast.

I personally would like to see 5-man, RaceTo stay for all prelim matches. Then switch to a timed base match for the quarter finals and up.
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Old 10-26-2011, 02:07 PM #4
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I (as well as the majority of people answering that poll) would prefer to see the NPPL get gobbled up by the PSP and stick with the existing PSP format.

I'd like to stick with 5man, but if it had to be 7man, I'd prefer it be a 7man RaceTo format.
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Old 10-26-2011, 02:50 PM #5
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I'm all for going back to full match, unlimited points. NCPA Class A style.

If your worried about paint costs, reduce the time in each half.
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Old 10-26-2011, 03:51 PM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak36 View Post
It's easier to get new teams playing because you really only need 5 guys. Aftershock ended up playing their last match at Cup with only 6. The jump from 3-man beginner teams to 5-man isn't all that steep, and you can continue to compete without requiring a whole lot of people. Making it easier for new teams to play the merged league should be a high priority.
Agree with that for sure, thats my reasoning as to why xball and race to blew up on a local level. Being a beginner on a 3 man team trying to put together more than double your current roster probly just seems impossible. Even if you could fill the roster there wouldn't be anywhere for you to play without getting stomped (atm the lowest division seven man you can play is d3 nppl or open division nepl)

For it to work at all it would have to be a much more strict D3 (appa and you get kicked after 4 events max) or maybe add a D4 seven man with similar ruling to thin the division out so it was truly for thos who are new to seven man or have a newer team with low (and legit) rankings.

NPPL screwed themselves out of making it easier to jump into seven man. They make it easy to sneak in to d3 instead of hard to get in and easy to get bumped out
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Old 10-26-2011, 03:58 PM #7
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Quote:
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I (as well as the majority of people answering that poll) would prefer to see the NPPL get gobbled up by the PSP and stick with the existing PSP format.

I'd like to stick with 5man, but if it had to be 7man, I'd prefer it be a 7man RaceTo format.
Doesn't have to be anything but do you really think no change is what we need? I dont disagree with five man but I do think just having the NPPL hand over their resources to the PSP (from what Iv'e heard is a money losing/getting worse business, could be internet jargin but..) seems like a bad idea.

I think they should join together and give us a change of pace, something we are not expecting and that has a good business model. Something a fan could want to watch and participate in. Putting NPPL on the chopping block and letting PSP continue on for 5 more dying years is litterally my least favorite option.
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:07 PM #8
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Freak36 brings up a great point. Most of the world is on a 5player format. Making a new 7player format makes no sense.

I think we all like point systems.....eliminates fluke games and allows for the better team to win most of the time. Full match means more players which is hard to manage. So Id defiantly lean towards RaceTo format.

RaceTo5 and RaceTo2 are played very differently. Back to back points is a huge part of RaceTo5, conditioned players and organized pits give you a significant advantage. Mixing the formats between prelims and finals would be very strange IMO.

Id like to see a well enforced Semi. Ramp in recball is ****ty for the sport so it should just disappear all together IMO.

No Coaching. It changes the game too much honestly. Most teams can’t get them because it’s hard to get somebody who isn’t playing motivated enough to show up and actually get good at coaching. Teams with a good coach have a HUGE advantage. I just don’t like the idea of a non player having an actual impact on the outcome of the game. If anything I’d allow Pit coaching but NOT spectator coaching. I don’t have a problem with generic cheering/clapping just not strings of specific information.

5 players on the field
150x100
Points (RaceTo)
Semi (well enforced)
No Coaching (or Pit only)
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:37 PM #9
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Quote:
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RaceTo5 and RaceTo2 are played very differently. Back to back points is a huge part of RaceTo5, conditioned players and organized pits give you a significant advantage. Mixing the formats between prelims and finals would be very strange IMO.
To elaborate on that, I was referring to the RaceTo-4 and up formats which is basically a form of xball. RaceTo-2 is definitely different and I'd keep that the same all the way to finals. My idea is that you knock out the teams that get 4-0'd in the prelims while saving the league some time and money. Then on Sunday, you switch to purely a time format so the teams don't have to worry about losing after hitting 4 points. They can just go out there, just play the clock, and be more tempted to try crazy things to get back into the game.
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:49 PM #10
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One thing about 7-player RaceTo is that, well, it won't be the 7-man people who play 7-man are used to. It'll be XBall with 2 more players on the field.

What makes 7-man play the way it is now is every game is 7 minutes. Whether you lose in 2 minutes or lose in 7 minutes (or win in 2 minutes or 7 minutes) makes no difference. The result is that people play slow, because there is no advantage to playing fast.

That's completely different in RaceTo. If you lose in 2 minutes instead of 7 minutes, you just bought yourself 5 more minutes to get points back. So there is a huge incentive to be aggressive, because aggression leads to more wins on average, and provides more opportunity for a comeback in the cases it doesn't work out.


Whether or not the game clock is reset each point is way, way, way more important to the style of play than whether there are 7 or 5 (or 6) people on the field.


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Old 10-26-2011, 04:52 PM #11
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Semi (well enforced)
Fantasy.

Anyone who suggests semi-auto as a "rule" should immediately have their ability to post in any threads about rules or formats revoked.


The only three options are capped full auto, capped ramping, or people's guns shoot whatever they can get away with while referees pull random gun penalties on people they don't like.

And the full auto one isn't really an option for legal/insurance reasons.


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Old 10-26-2011, 05:24 PM #12
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Fantasy.

Anyone who suggests semi-auto as a "rule" should immediately have their ability to post in any threads about rules or formats revoked.


The only two options are capped full auto, capped ramping, or people's guns shoot whatever they can get away with while referees pull random gun penalties on people they don't like.

And the full auto one isn't really an option for legal/insurance reasons.


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This is something I've always agreed with Chris about. There is no true semi.
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Old 10-26-2011, 05:57 PM #13
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Personally I'd like to see 5 man RaceTo5 in all divisions, with RaceTo7 for pro, keeping all the other current PSP rules. I feel like the whole pit aspect, having different "lines", and changing up plays really adds a depth to the game that makes it more like other sports. After playing a 7 man tournament for the first time ever this year, I can safely say that I believe the wait times are waaaay too much. That probably varies league to league but regardless I like to play a bunch of paintball in a short period of time.
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Old 10-26-2011, 06:00 PM #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shock2k3 View Post
Doesn't have to be anything but do you really think no change is what we need? I dont disagree with five man but I do think just having the NPPL hand over their resources to the PSP (from what Iv'e heard is a money losing/getting worse business, could be internet jargin but..) seems like a bad idea.

I think they should join together and give us a change of pace, something we are not expecting and that has a good business model. Something a fan could want to watch and participate in. Putting NPPL on the chopping block and letting PSP continue on for 5 more dying years is litterally my least favorite option.
http://www.propaintball.com/2011/10/...p-lane-wright/

If I read that correctly, PSP had their best year ever financially. I'd hardly call 280 teams at one event "dying".

EDIT: Oops double post, sorry.

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Old 10-26-2011, 06:46 PM #15
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I just want the nppl bunkers as a bigger guy they help me...
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Old 10-26-2011, 07:33 PM #16
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If the Beast, Dave Baines, can play the home pin and live for quite some time in there then I don't really think bunker size is an issue.
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Old 10-26-2011, 07:51 PM #17
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Old 10-26-2011, 08:45 PM #18
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If I had his skills I pob would have no issues....
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Old 10-26-2011, 10:36 PM #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raehl View Post
One thing about 7-player RaceTo is that, well, it won't be the 7-man people who play 7-man are used to. It'll be XBall with 2 more players on the field.

What makes 7-man play the way it is now is every game is 7 minutes. Whether you lose in 2 minutes or lose in 7 minutes (or win in 2 minutes or 7 minutes) makes no difference. The result is that people play slow, because there is no advantage to playing fast.

That's completely different in RaceTo. If you lose in 2 minutes instead of 7 minutes, you just bought yourself 5 more minutes to get points back. So there is a huge incentive to be aggressive, because aggression leads to more wins on average, and provides more opportunity for a comeback in the cases it doesn't work out.


Whether or not the game clock is reset each point is way, way, way more important to the style of play than whether there are 7 or 5 (or 6) people on the field.


- Chris
So, say PSP went to 7-Man RaceTo. Would you change the NCPA xball(or whatever class A format is called) to the new 7-Man RaceTo format?
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Old 10-26-2011, 11:17 PM #20
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You could certainly enforce Semi better. Everybody knows what a gun taking off sounds like. Just refs don't enforce it. Have refs actually pull bodies off the field when a gun is bouncing and you'll see people jacking their debounce up a lot more.]

Adding a ROF cap really helps as well as you can see in any 7man league. Sure there are some guns that are bouncing up to the cap but the vast majority are shooting legal. That's because of that 66ms wait time before the next shot can go out.

Issue a set of minimum setting for debounce along with ROF. Everybody who competes has a board that can adjust debounce. Kick has a large effect on bounce however just make it a value that safely covers all without reducing the MROF. Perhaps then marker MFGs can make the "PSP Mode" include setting like debounce aswell as the typical ROF to comply.

The biggest issue I have with ramp is that players are no longer fully responsible for the paint that comes out of the barrel. In semi (bouncing or not) either you pulled the trigger that many times or your illegal gun fired that many times. The blame cant fall back on the fireing mode. Makes penalties like overshooting that much more clean cut. Ramp is a huge problem to rec players. Kids with it want to use to wreck people and people without it ***** they don't have it.

Chris I'm not talking about unlimited semi chainsaw mode. I'm talking about a very regulated semi. Either with just a ROF cap or a ROF cap along with a min debounce setting.....**** something other than 1 finger 12.5bps rope mode.

IDK I just think you shouldn't be able to shoot 12.5 bps with mittens on.....but that's just me.
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Old 10-26-2011, 11:59 PM #21
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i personally would love to see a Race to format with no "game clock" play it just like a nppl game with a set game time for each point. back to back points. just like in psp. capped ramping. spectator participation. maybe a race to 4 for divisionals and still race to 7 for pro. keeps the exciting race to point style format, with the slow methodical paintball of nppl.

IMO
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