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Old 10-23-2011, 01:46 AM #1
YeloSno
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Sprung Demon Bolts

I've been playing with the idea of a sprung Demon bolt in my mind (refer to shockers and finally the luxe).

Possible? How does the back/inside of the Demon bolt look?

I obviously don't have a Demon, which is why I am asking, but I've been thinking of finally buying a "newer" marker for keeps and I'd like it to be a sprung spool valve marker of some sort.
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Old 10-23-2011, 09:21 PM #2
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I don't have a demon either but they already have good efficiency, which tells me the dwell is already pretty low. The whole idea of the spring mode is to drop dwell time and prevent bolt stick. As far as I know bolt stick is also not a problem so.......while it may be possible, the practicality may not be there.
I suspect you might be able to run a lower dwell with a spring mode but then you'd be forced to raise your operating pressure to make sure the bolt cycles fully back. That in turn will give the gun more kick. The only way to know for sure is to actually try it.
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Old 10-23-2011, 10:31 PM #3
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I've spoken with Pooty about the idea of a spring on the bolt for the demon. And we all know about all his great mods. And he says its impossible to do because there isn't enough room to put one. That you would have recreate the drive train to do it.
I also don't think its necessary the drive train is working great on my demon.
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Old 10-23-2011, 11:28 PM #4
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All good points... especially that last one. Damn.

I was wondering if with a spring, even a soft one, one could manage to drop the dwell as low as maybe 7... or pressures even lower with the same dwell.
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Old 10-24-2011, 02:05 PM #5
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dwell

Quote:
Originally Posted by YeloSno View Post
All good points... especially that last one. Damn.

I was wondering if with a spring, even a soft one, one could manage to drop the dwell as low as maybe 7... or pressures even lower with the same dwell.
You can probably do about anything if you're willing to reinvent the internals. Would that make a better gun? Maybe...maybe not. Changing one thing always affects another. Lower dwell seems like a great idea but it can also lead to a loud gun, a kicky gun, a ball chopping gun.....etc etc. It's the whole picture I guess.
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Old 10-24-2011, 06:05 PM #6
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True, which is why I'm tossing the idea out of my mind.


Either way, my shocker is baffling in how smooth and quiet it shoots right now and it's set to I believe 7 or 8ms dwell with 170 psi on the gauge. That's pretty low.
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Old 10-24-2011, 06:26 PM #7
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http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3628009

Pooty was probally giving you the run around since I believe he was in on this one.
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Old 10-24-2011, 06:30 PM #8
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Seen it. Haven't seen a spring mod which is why I asked, but it seems that we have come to the conclusion that it's not exactly possible.


but damn, 118 psi? holy ****.
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Old 10-24-2011, 09:21 PM #9
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i have a demon, and its awesome, no real point to modifying the bolt.
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:51 PM #10
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Meh, I'm a tinkerer. There's always room to improve in my book
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Old 10-25-2011, 01:24 PM #11
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You also have to remember that the shockers had a LOT of room for improvement in the design. Spring mods and polished bolts helped the shocker become a "real" paintball gun.....almost because it's 2000 technology that never really changed since then. Newer gun designs are a lot smarter. The demon uses a similar design as the shocker bolt but then the vanguard boys did what smart parts should have done 10 years ago. If they had, maybe they'd still be in bidness lol.

That combined with REAL WORLD testing and re-development makes the gun a step way beyond the shocker. Smart parts just tossed stuff on the shelf and let you pay a fortune to make their guns useable lol.
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Old 10-25-2011, 03:11 PM #12
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Negative on that. More shockers were sold and used by teams than any other marker. The impulse, lawsuits and all the sponsorships is what brought SP down...

Besides, a sprung shocker can score more than 12 pods... Hell, mine gets about a case and i didn't even install the pooty engine yet.

Still haven't spent more than $350 on a shocker yet, either
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Old 10-26-2011, 10:04 PM #13
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If they didn't get lucky with the Dynasty sponsorship near the beginning, there wouldn't be that many shockers in the world...sorry to say lol. There isn't and never has been anything an unmodded shocker did better(Or even as good) as other guns out of the box. Heck they were barely even useable out of the box until they came out with the custom versions using other people's technology lol.
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Old 10-26-2011, 10:16 PM #14
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Oh, well yeah on that. Stock shockers suck until you fit it with quality Orings, then you can easily get 1600+ shots off a 68/45.

I do agree in stock config, they do pretty much suck either way, though.

In their time, they were some of the best IMO. the DM4/5 were really finicky and high maintenance. For the same or better efficiency, you could get a shocker, which was smaller, simpler, and more efficient.

Not as consistent, though. They win there.



back to original topic, dang.
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Old 11-01-2011, 01:07 PM #15
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Incidently....I owned a dm4, 2 dm5's, dmc, dm6, dm7, pm6, pm8 and I changed maybe 3 orings ever. My best efficienty was with the dm4, 2liter reg and evolve bolt kit. 13 pods on a nice hot day That thing was worked right in though! LOL.

The trick to all spoolers is lube them lite, and lube them every use. Never never change an oring unless you must!
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Old 11-01-2011, 08:58 PM #16
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I'm hunting around for a place that sells Xrings and HNBR rings cheap(er).
Eventually all my spool valves will be fitted with them. That and the Viton kit from Oring monkey to cover the bolt guide, outer can and sleeve, manifold, etc.
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Old 11-04-2011, 03:47 PM #17
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I've used x-rings on my past guns. The only place they really helped me a lot was in the cans on my older dms since they(the cans) usualy fit too tight to begin with(made in taiwan). Other than that I cant' really say they made my guns any better. They were just an easy solution to a problem that shouldn't have existed. I think the fit of the oring, whichever kind it may be is the more important factor. Most people try to make them too loose which isn't good. Spoolers run pretty low pressure so those orings need to be fairly snug to make a tight seal, due to less oring swell from the air pressue.
The first demons came with some pretty expensive Vitron(sp?) orings and they didn't really work any better so I think they discontinued them.
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Old 11-05-2011, 05:12 PM #18
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Supposedly, X-Rings are wonderful for fluctuating climates. Like it's cold and dry one day, then hot and wet the other, the Xrings won't really change in size or anything like that, so it keeps the marker shooting more consistently.

Or so I hear.

I know HNBR and Viton rings make a HUGE difference over the buna and urethane crap. Especially in some of our shockers when fitted.
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Old 11-06-2011, 12:12 AM #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YeloSno View Post
Supposedly, X-Rings are wonderful for fluctuating climates. Like it's cold and dry one day, then hot and wet the other, the Xrings won't really change in size or anything like that, so it keeps the marker shooting more consistently.

Or so I hear.

I know HNBR and Viton rings make a HUGE difference over the buna and urethane crap. Especially in some of our shockers when fitted.
Well, I'm up in Canada. I played from 90 to -10 lol. No difference. Again, on shockers there is a lot of room for improvement on everything. Sizing orings compensates for the bad machining on parts. I believe the vitron orings are designed for pressure flucuations as in scuba diving. Not for weather fluctuations but I could certainly be wrong on that. I've never tried them either way so my opinion is only based on heresay. Xrings I have tried without any benefit. One cool thing about xrings though, is that they can sort of "grab" a supply of grease on the inner core which may help keep them lubricated. On a polished bolt that may be a benefit.
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Old 11-06-2011, 11:47 AM #20
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Well, there's also altitude involved.

Man, you trash on shockers a lot.

Stock, shockers kind of... well. They suck.

But any aftermarket part greatly overcomes for that.

Even a virtue board and re-oringing the whole bolt engine could more than double your efficiency and firing rate consistency.

I haven't thought about the whole lubrication thing with Xrings.

Would be cool to pair it with the FF kit.
Unfortunately I lost the bookmark for the place that sells the Xrings and the other types of Orings, so I'm kind of a sitting duck atm.

If you know of any site, let me know.
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Old 11-06-2011, 09:04 PM #21
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