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Old 01-17-2012, 03:30 PM #904
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Originally Posted by StellarKnight View Post
You care to expand on this? I've heard a number of people make this contention, but seldom hear an explanation as to what it actually means.
Society as a whole values and promotes the college bachelor lifestyle over the married family-centric lifestyle. Divorce and abortion are so high because people realize they cannot be free and have a wife/kids. Consider that for the majority of our "growing up" we are bombarded with music, movies, TV shows, advertisements etc. etc. promoting the playboy lifestyle(for lack of a better generalized term). Hell, the only reason schools promote chastity anymore is to minimize disease.

Feminism played it's wonderful hand in the desecration of the family as an ideal by taking a piss on gender roles. Now we have more women in the workplace (in fact it is expected and almost mandatory) and less at home caring for the kids. Can you guess who is now seen as a burden?

We already disconnected sex from reproduction, guess what happened to marriage? It no longer serves a means to an end (reproduction and family). It is now a means to a financial end.

So, we have a society that tolerates and even encourages poor impulse control. Man and women come together out of convenience, split from each other when it becomes inconvenient. Children are given up or aborted because they inconvenience the parents lifestyles and goals. The millennials may yet be the most apathetic generation in history.

Conservatives are clueless. They cannot stop arguing about man, women and derp God says so. Life begins at the moment of blah blah blah. Liberals don't care, they just want to abolish anything that puts restrictions on the individual. Who do you think is going to win more arguments, the person who can't figure out why social standards exist or the person who says everything will be fine just do what you want, whenever?

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Old 01-17-2012, 05:32 PM #905
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but liberals don't want to abolish everything that puts restrictions on teh individual...

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Well Ron Paul said he feels like all spending should be earmarked. If we aren't delegating where the money is going, where is it actually going?
When I said earmarks, I meant spending.
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Old 01-17-2012, 05:40 PM #906
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but liberals don't want to abolish everything that puts restrictions on teh individual...
what if limiting certain liberties actually maximizes total liberty?
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Old 01-17-2012, 06:03 PM #907
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what if limiting certain liberties actually maximizes total liberty?
History shows us it never stops with just 1 potato chip.
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Old 01-17-2012, 07:04 PM #908
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what if limiting certain liberties actually maximizes total liberty?
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

-Benjamin Franklin
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Old 01-17-2012, 07:06 PM #909
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Originally Posted by ladd_17 View Post
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

-Benjamin Franklin
Think of the PATRIOT act. Kinda the opposite of it's namesake
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Old 01-17-2012, 07:21 PM #910
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Originally Posted by ladd_17 View Post
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

-Benjamin Franklin

what part about maximizing total liberty didn't you understand?

i'm thinking along these lines:

http://crookedtimber.org/2011/10/28/...-your-bedroom/
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:36 PM #911
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No. The contact was broken, the tenant doesn't own the property. He could have chosen to live elsewhere. Kind of like Henry Ford and how he ran his shop, don't like it? Find another job.

Liberty is not maximized by taking away liberties. And it never stops, it is a continuous process of taking liberties until there is nothing left.
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Old 01-17-2012, 09:55 PM #912
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Here's a better example: by disbarring a firm from polluting the air we have limited their freedom to pollute but enabled the freedom of others to enjoy clean air to breathe.

i'm not into political philosophy but this makes sense to me
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Old 01-18-2012, 05:06 AM #913
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Quote:
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Here's a better example: by disbarring a firm from polluting the air we have limited their freedom to pollute but enabled the freedom of others to enjoy clean air to breathe.

i'm not into political philosophy but this makes sense to me
Your example is crap again, but you get points for the attempt (honestly, trying to have a conversation gets you points). Here is where you went wrong: you aren't limiting the company's liberty to pollute, the company has no liberty to pollute as it's owner's rights stop where other's rights being. If it isn't yours, you can't play with it without permission. Polluting in this argument isn't wrong because it destroys the environment, it is wrong because "you" are destroying what is "mine". Which, by the by, isn't the same argument you were trying to make.


I understand what you are trying to say, it would have been a better example if you said say... well, no I couldn't even make the argument for slavery as the connotations with it today are horrible (as apposed to what the biblical laws prescribe for the treatment of slaves).
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Old 01-18-2012, 09:31 AM #914
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You can get rid of most regulations if you just respect property rights. No one has the right to pollute another person's property.
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:01 AM #915
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Americans have become too hungry for security and protection from terrorism and too dependent on the Government for aid and reparations for Ron Paul to get elected. Less than 10% of the US serves, and less than 10% of them serve in a direct combat roll - yet so many Americans support an aggressive foreign policy.

I hope that he gets in...
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:21 AM #916
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I'm speechless, on the original failed attempt by AP and then MSNBC actually doing some real investigative journalism to defend Ron Paul who is anti-establishment.
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:31 AM #917
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Hopefully they keep up with it and show America what they are really missing.
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:42 AM #918
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AP a bunch of hacks? They're usually really good... why wouldn't they do their homework?
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:43 AM #919
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An agenda...
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:44 AM #920
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but liberals don't want to abolish everything that puts restrictions on teh individual...
In practice, not wholly. It's a contradictory goal. The real gripe they have towards Christianity is not about whether this God thing exists or not, it's that Christianity sets a standard behavior that doesn't jive too well with moral relativism. It just happens to be easier to attack the God part because the God of Abraham not exists somehow magically invalidates everything else Christianity stands for. This could all very well be about any religion, Christianity is a fine example because we are in the US. So here we are again gridlocked in yet another tiring debate over the establishment clause. A debate which is just another in a series of distraction issues.

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Old 01-18-2012, 11:44 AM #921
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In practice, not wholly. It's a contradictory goal. The real gripe they have towards Christianity is not about whether this God thing exists or not, it's that Christianity sets a standard behavior that doesn't jive too well with moral relativism. It just happens to be easier to attack the God part because the God of Abraham not exists somehow magically invalidates everything else Christianity stands for. This could all very well be about any religion, Christianity is a fine example because we are in the US. So here we are again gridlocked in yet another tiring debate over the establishment clause. A debate which is just another in a series of distraction issues.
Most Christians follow the rules and commandments set by the Bible, few actually recognize the teachings and example set by Jesus. You're supposed to mission, yes...but that is not bullying people with your beliefs to force them to become Christian. The New Testament showed that when people talked to Jesus, they saw the error of their ways, not that he forced them to admit that they were wrong.

That's the one thing that upsets me the most. Both sides have become so bitter towards the other from this. Neither side can compromise.
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Old 01-18-2012, 11:54 AM #922
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There shouldn't be a compromise when one is suggesting something unconstitutional or suggesting the citizenry surrender freedoms and liberties.
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Old 01-18-2012, 12:00 PM #923
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Meant looking past conflicts in beliefs and look at the heart of issues purely politically.
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Old 01-18-2012, 12:11 PM #924
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Your example is crap again, but you get points for the attempt (honestly, trying to have a conversation gets you points). Here is where you went wrong: you aren't limiting the company's liberty to pollute, the company has no liberty to pollute as it's owner's rights stop where other's rights being. If it isn't yours, you can't play with it without permission. Polluting in this argument isn't wrong because it destroys the environment, it is wrong because "you" are destroying what is "mine". Which, by the by, isn't the same argument you were trying to make.
I don't understand. You're talking about forcing people to internalize their externalities which requires government action.

This just verifies my argument.
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