Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-21-2011, 05:42 AM #43
Pail Ail (Banned)
Bill Watterson
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
So by saying fail you're implicitly claiming science is 100% accurate.

lawd.
Pail Ail is offline  
Old 09-21-2011, 08:44 AM #44
Frank101
legit legit legit
 
Frank101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NJ
Frank101 is a Supporting Member
Frank101 owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
Frank101 is reppin' sidebar 4 life
Frank101 plays in the APPA D5 division
I have him on ignore, but I'll point out (I think I already did in another thread) that Newton's laws of gravity worked very well up until Einstein's reflectivity and other string theorists find out that at the most basic particles of matter (gluons, nutrinos et al) the equations of Newton don't quite account. That's just one example there are plenty of others where theories needed to be overhauled or revised as we gather new information and better technology.
__________________
"Originally posted by pokenose: We quit doing that secret Santa thing after the black guy got a bucket of fried chicken, watermelon jolly ranchers, a bottle of colt 45 and a cotton scented candle then someone else got a ball of that free twine you tie down your items with at ikea and a vibrator so you can go **** yourself if you didn't like the twine."

"Originally posted by AlphaNeo36:
Election fraud is perfectly acceptable when it intends to keep Ron Paul out of the White House."
Frank101 is offline  
Old 09-21-2011, 08:58 AM #45
Umami
"That guy"
 
Umami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Inside the Beltway
Umami supports our troops
There are so many misconceptions about science in this thread from BOTH Gonzo and Frank. I want to rage.
__________________
Everything great in the world is done by neurotics; they alone founded our religions and created our masterpieces.

SOG
I am affiliated with Lurker Paintball. My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of LurkerPB.
Umami is offline  
Old 09-21-2011, 12:51 PM #46
barrel roll
secedere
 
barrel roll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: FL/GA border
barrel roll is one of the top 500 posters on PbNation
barrel roll is Legendary
Litmus test (spelling? And pun on purpose)

Is there a difference between a scientific theory and a fact?
__________________
--- UNDRPRVLGD Goggle Straps n stuff ---
If this be treason, make the most of it.-Patrick Henry
I'm a damn veteran, I've got more rights and privileges than you do.
MQ2 rebuild kits, MP4 ram rebuilds, general 'cocker teching
Will soon be making super slick mid/half block bolts
barrel roll is offline  
Old 09-21-2011, 02:15 PM #47
Treghc
 
 
Treghc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Seattle
Treghc is a Supporting Member
Treghc is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
Treghc is a Forum Captain
A fact can only be determined fact if the rules governing it are known and unchanging. A good example of this are theorems within math. We create and determine the outerlying constraints, allowing us to determine, absolutely, the product as being indefinitely true or false.

In science, we don't understand the governing rules of the physical universe, therefore we cannot determine, absolutely, whether something is indefinitely true or false. Scientific theories are tried hypothesis that continue to stand the test of time and scrutiny.

If you believe that bacteria causes sickness, you're following a scientific theory: germ theory.
If you believe that all physical matter in this universe is made up of atoms, you believe in another scientific theory: atomic theory.
If you think the Eearth orbits the Sun, you believe in the theory of heliocentrism.

Scientific theories are not "just theories," but are humble examples of understanding something, able to admit fault when/if evidence shows otherwise.

The fact that, quantitatively, there is more evidence to support the theory of evolution than there is to support the holocaust ever happening makes it hard for me to want to follow a man who is unable to find the insurmountable evidence to support something as being the most appropriate path. I know Ron Paul has stated he won't allow his personal beliefs to get in the way and that could very well be true, but I see a clear lack in foundational logic if he can't follow something 99.99% of the scientific community treats as scientific fact (note: scientific fact does not mean true fact).
__________________
“But men, they say a lot of foolish things. In the end, the only words I can find to believe in are mine." - Joe

Tarsier Slave


We are Sapien

Last edited by Treghc : 09-21-2011 at 04:27 PM.
Treghc is online now  
Old 09-21-2011, 04:07 PM #48
drgonzo
Half-cocked
 
drgonzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
Is there a difference between a scientific theory and a fact?
The difference is that, within the context here, facts don't exist. Scientific theories are the best we've got and are the best results science has determined. Frank did the all too common misrepresentation of the term by suggesting its colloquial definition (i.e. synonymous with hypothesis) rather than its real definition.

A scientific theory IS 100% -- 100% supported by science.
__________________
PUMPPB.COM - Pump paintball forums
HawaiiPB.com - Paintball forums for the state of Hawaii
HawaiiPB/PumpPB - Our videos | Droidtiles.com - NFC Tags for Android and mobile devices

Last edited by drgonzo : 09-21-2011 at 06:25 PM.
drgonzo is offline  
Old 09-21-2011, 04:33 PM #49
SD-G-force
what's paintball again?
 
SD-G-force's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Diego, CA
SD-G-force has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Probably like 99% of the people saying they're not going to vote for Paul because he doesn't believe in evolution weren't going to vote for him in the first place.

I don't even see why this is such a huge deal, I don't think dr. Paul would ever force his religious beliefs on us or have them be a great influence in office. This seems like such a small issue in the grand scheme of things. I want the economy fixed and the government out of the majority of my life, you could be a Muslim for all I care. Also don't the current preside t and other GOP candidates believe(or say they do) in creationism(serious question here I'm not sure)?
__________________
Ron Paul 2012
SD-G-force is offline  
Old 09-21-2011, 04:36 PM #50
Umami
"That guy"
 
Umami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Inside the Beltway
Umami supports our troops
Or to make life easier, I'll quote Wikipedia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Just as in philosophy, the scientific concept of fact is central to fundamental questions regarding the nature, methods, scope and validity of scientific reasoning.

In the most basic sense, a scientific fact is an objective and verifiable observation, in contrast with a hypothesis or theory, which is intended to explain or interpret facts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact#Fact_in_science

I'm glad they go into the Gravity vs. Evolution analogy:
Quote:
The application of the terms "fact" and "theory" to evolution is similar to their use in describing gravity.[20]

The most obvious fact of gravity is that objects in our everyday experience always fall downwards when not otherwise prevented from doing so. People throughout history have wondered what causes this effect. Many explanations have been proposed over the centuries. Aristotle, Galileo, Newton, and Einstein have all developed useful models of gravity, each of which constitutes a theory of gravity. (Newton, for example, realized that the fact of gravity can be extended to the tendency of any two masses to attract one another.) The word "gravity", therefore, can be used to refer to the observed facts (i.e., that masses attract one another) and the theory used to explain the facts (the reason why masses attract one another). In this way, gravity is both a theory and a fact.

In the study of biological species, the facts include the existence of many different species in existence today, some very similar to each other and some very dissimilar, the remains of extinct species in the fossil record, and so forth. In species that rapidly reproduce, for example fruit flies, the process of change from generation to generation — that is, evolutionary change — has been observed in the laboratory.[21] The observation of fruit fly populations changing over time is also an example of a fact. So evolution is a fact just as observations of gravity are factual.

There have been many attempts to explain these biological observations over the years. Lamarckism, transmutationism and orthogenesis were all non-Darwinian theories that attempted to explain the observations of species and fossils, as well as other evidence. However, the modern theory of evolution is the explanation for all relevant observations regarding the development of life, based on a model that explains all the available data and observations (and provides testable predictions). Thus, evolution is not only a fact but also a theory, just as gravity is both a fact and a theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evoluti...wi th_gravity

More on Newton's theory of Gravitation being "wrong":
Newton's gravity was replaced by Einstein's theory of General Relativity, in which Einstein describes gravity not as a force, but as a result of the curvature of 3+1 spacetime. However, Newton's theory of Gravitation was so strong, so well supported and had such good predictive properties, that any new theory was required by the scientific community to reduce to exactly Newton's theory within observable limits [source]. Newton's theory wasn't wrong, only incomplete. It explains the facts very well in most situations and provides tremendous predictive power that we still use today due to its simplicity.

Also good:
Quote:
A scientific theory is a well-supported body of interconnected statements that explains observations and can be used to make testable predictions. Scientific theories describe the coherent framework into which observable data fit. The "theory of evolution" is the framework that best explains observed changes of species over time and best predicts the new observations that continue to be made in evolutionary biology and related sciences.

The scientific definition of the word "theory" is different from the colloquial sense of the word. Colloquially, "theory" can mean a hypothesis, a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation that does not have to be based on facts or make testable predictions. However, in science, the meaning of theory is more rigorous. A theory is hypothesis corroborated by observation of facts which makes testable predictions. In science, a current theory is a theory that has no equally acceptable or more acceptable alternative theory.
Calling a scientific theory "JUST a theory" is an oxymoron to a scientist, and immediately reveals the speaker's scientific ignorance. Theories are the highest form of scientific explanation.

There's actually an overview of the literature on Evolution being called a theory vs. fact on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evoluti...heory_and_fact
__________________
Everything great in the world is done by neurotics; they alone founded our religions and created our masterpieces.

SOG
I am affiliated with Lurker Paintball. My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of LurkerPB.
Umami is offline  
Old 09-21-2011, 05:17 PM #51
barrel roll
secedere
 
barrel roll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: FL/GA border
barrel roll is one of the top 500 posters on PbNation
barrel roll is Legendary
Some people take this **** way too serious.

Lets keep this simple. Theories are as ****ing close as some people can get to understanding something. That doesn't mean it its the correct idea, it also doesn't mean it is wrong. It is the best, educated, guess.

Facts are 100% truth. When you pass an electrical current through water, you will get hydrogen and oxygen gases. That is a fact.

Rep. Paul said we dont know enough. That is a fact. We think we have the general idea down, but that is the extent of what we've got. We dont know enough to map that **** out. There are holes in the species map.

Just read an article stating the Earth has more gold than it statistically should. Need to finish to find out why they think this, and where they think it came from.

PS - also found out gold is made from oxygen. Neat-o.
__________________
--- UNDRPRVLGD Goggle Straps n stuff ---
If this be treason, make the most of it.-Patrick Henry
I'm a damn veteran, I've got more rights and privileges than you do.
MQ2 rebuild kits, MP4 ram rebuilds, general 'cocker teching
Will soon be making super slick mid/half block bolts
barrel roll is offline  
Old 09-21-2011, 06:21 PM #52
SniperForce-Duffek
Delta Farce
 
SniperForce-Duffek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
SniperForce-Duffek plays in the APPA D5 division
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
Some people take this **** way too serious.

Lets keep this simple. Theories are as ****ing close as some people can get to understanding something. That doesn't mean it its the correct idea, it also doesn't mean it is wrong. It is the best, educated, guess.

Facts are 100% truth. When you pass an electrical current through water, you will get hydrogen and oxygen gases. That is a fact.

Rep. Paul said we dont know enough. That is a fact. We think we have the general idea down, but that is the extent of what we've got. We dont know enough to map that **** out. There are holes in the species map.

Just read an article stating the Earth has more gold than it statistically should. Need to finish to find out why they think this, and where they think it came from.

PS - also found out gold is made from oxygen. Neat-o.
I'm ready to PSD in Afghanistan for some gold digging.
__________________
Kick *** military apparel _ Mars Strategic

"May god have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't."
G.S.P
SniperForce-Duffek is offline  
Old 09-21-2011, 06:52 PM #53
AlphaNeo36
lapping your tears
 
AlphaNeo36's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: 765-IN
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
Rep. Paul said we dont know enough. That is a fact. We think we have the general idea down, but that is the extent of what we've got. We dont know enough to map that **** out. There are holes in the species map.
He may not know everything (which isn't a requirement to make rational decisions) but he did say he is essentially a creationist, that God created the universe and mankind. Those are completely different results. "Well, the theory of evolution doesn't tell the whole story so I'm going to completely disregard all evidence and say God created everything." Yeah, I, and many others, wholeheartedly disagree with the thought process leading to that conclusion. It is a sign of weak and irrational reasoning, hence the discusion.
__________________
Overbear: better 10 innocent men be convicted, than a single guilty man go free to commit more crime.
Overbear: I prefer that I be given a license to shoot anyone who would pick socialism or communism over the basic freedoms inherent to consumerism.
MatrixBaller04 AKA EricS6661: I can guarantee something will happen between now and February 9th.
yesme: i'm not saying you should invest in gold first off, you would be much better off to invest in food,stuff you use and will keep for a couple of years, like razors
Blake360: in highschool, my teacher's father worked for the CIA and she brought my class documents proving the Roswell crash was of extraterrestrial origin.
AlphaNeo36 is offline  
Old 09-21-2011, 07:01 PM #54
barrel roll
secedere
 
barrel roll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: FL/GA border
barrel roll is one of the top 500 posters on PbNation
barrel roll is Legendary
Where did you get youre quote from?
__________________
--- UNDRPRVLGD Goggle Straps n stuff ---
If this be treason, make the most of it.-Patrick Henry
I'm a damn veteran, I've got more rights and privileges than you do.
MQ2 rebuild kits, MP4 ram rebuilds, general 'cocker teching
Will soon be making super slick mid/half block bolts
barrel roll is offline  
Old 09-21-2011, 08:45 PM #55
Umami
"That guy"
 
Umami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Inside the Beltway
Umami supports our troops
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
PS - also found out gold is made from oxygen. Neat-o.
Doing alchemy, are we?
__________________
Everything great in the world is done by neurotics; they alone founded our religions and created our masterpieces.

SOG
I am affiliated with Lurker Paintball. My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of LurkerPB.
Umami is offline  
Old 09-21-2011, 08:48 PM #56
barrel roll
secedere
 
barrel roll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: FL/GA border
barrel roll is one of the top 500 posters on PbNation
barrel roll is Legendary
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami View Post
Doing alchemy, are we?
I have no newly forming star nearby to make it with
__________________
--- UNDRPRVLGD Goggle Straps n stuff ---
If this be treason, make the most of it.-Patrick Henry
I'm a damn veteran, I've got more rights and privileges than you do.
MQ2 rebuild kits, MP4 ram rebuilds, general 'cocker teching
Will soon be making super slick mid/half block bolts
barrel roll is offline  
Old 09-22-2011, 09:20 AM #57
PALE HORSE
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD-G-force View Post
Probably like 99% of the people saying they're not going to vote for Paul because he doesn't believe in evolution weren't going to vote for him in the first place.

I don't even see why this is such a huge deal, I don't think dr. Paul would ever force his religious beliefs on us or have them be a great influence in office. This seems like such a small issue in the grand scheme of things. I want the economy fixed and the government out of the majority of my life, you could be a Muslim for all I care. Also don't the current preside t and other GOP candidates believe(or say they do) in creationism(serious question here I'm not sure)?
Most people in this country are Christians so I don't think the tiny amount of non-believers really matters at the polls. I admire Paul's character but imo he should play to the masses to get elected so he can make a difference. Gotta love politics.
PALE HORSE is offline  
Old 09-22-2011, 09:43 PM #58
Tuff
Supports 2nd Amendment
 
Tuff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NH
Tuff is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pail Ail View Post
Yes, let us dismiss him because of a personal opinion that he feels has no place in politics. I heard Mitt Romney is a coke fan, ****im.
So you argue against religion, but stand here to defend Ron Paul because he is questioning evolution......oh right, you argue for the sake of arguing. Lay off the drugs dude.
__________________
IrishMafia
Proud American
Tuff is offline  
Old 09-23-2011, 01:36 AM #59
Pail Ail (Banned)
Bill Watterson
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
When have I argued against religion? Can you find me any quotes?


Rofl, I bet Tuff is a schizoid abusing seroquel. That explains the lazy-eye posts.
Pail Ail is offline  
Old 09-23-2011, 09:38 AM #60
AJ 210
 
 
AJ 210's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: san antonio
Has it occurred to anyone that you can believe in both evolution and creationism?
AJ 210 is offline  
Old 09-23-2011, 12:24 PM #61
Treghc
 
 
Treghc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Seattle
Treghc is a Supporting Member
Treghc is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
Treghc is a Forum Captain
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ 210 View Post
Has it occurred to anyone that you can believe in both evolution and creationism?
Eh. I don't know about that.

God created man, not a single-celled organism that evolved in to man. And females were created from the rib of a man. That's not evolution...

Also, if you are to believe in that, then a questions begs "when did God decide to give man a soul that can transcend in to heaven or hell? At what stage of evolution did he finally decide 'okay, here's a soul for you' and give men and women souls?"

It may work for some, but this is really about Ron Paul. His stance doesn't seem to be "evolution and creationism coexist."
__________________
“But men, they say a lot of foolish things. In the end, the only words I can find to believe in are mine." - Joe

Tarsier Slave


We are Sapien

Last edited by Treghc : 09-23-2011 at 12:31 PM.
Treghc is online now  
Old 09-23-2011, 02:24 PM #62
Xanatos903 (Banned)
Assault weapons kill kids
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: SOCMOB
Xanatos903 is Legendary
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ 210 View Post
Has it occurred to anyone that you can believe in both evolution and creationism?
Not creationism. You can go right ahead and believe in a higher power and evolution, but not that they created us as we are now.
Xanatos903 is offline  
Old 09-23-2011, 02:36 PM #63
(NMA)SixSigma
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Binghamton, NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ 210 View Post
Has it occurred to anyone that you can believe in both evolution and creationism?
That is just blasphamy!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ANYTHING That was written in the bible 3000 years ago must be taken litterally. duh everyone knows that...



but I thought this was about Ron Paul. He is a strait shooter and has an answer for all of our countries REAL problems. He's tough on immigration excellent foreign policy proposal, and smart about creating jobs and becoming more energy independant. he is not GENERIC like the other canidates whos only response to our issues is, "Let the states deal with their own problems." Ron Paul can (and has with me at least) crossed the party lines.



:Edit: Mitt Romney would be my choice for his running mate
__________________
Commandment #1: I am the War Lord and the wrathful God of Combat and I will ALWAYS lead you from the front, not the rear.
-Marcinko

Last edited by (NMA)SixSigma : 09-23-2011 at 02:39 PM.
(NMA)SixSigma is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump