[KGB-khrome]

Originally Posted by Skipperdawg

Honestly it doesn't affect me either way. If I attend an event it'll be for a magazine where I won't have to pay the $75/$150 or submit photos to them. I just think that the benefits that the photographer gets for submitting pics are not equal to the benefits the league gets from the deal. I think the photographer gets the short end of the stick and hence why I'm arguing that side.

Yeh, same here I don't' think photographer are getting the short end. you read the post before yours, they want to make money. No one is forcing you to give up anything, only thing they raised the media pass price, period. If they can't afford then they might have to work with NPPL for the $75 deal, but if you can afford it, shouldn't be a deal, and if you aren't making at least $150 at an event then maybe this isn't something you should do for money, do it as a hobby, all hobbies cost money. give away your picture for the love of the sport. and if you gonna give away the pictures why not the league trying to make it grow.

[MutR.]

Originally Posted by KGB-khrome

This is not a product, this is an event that NPPL spends money and time to organize, SO that is why you have something to shoot to put on your website and SELL to the players, I bet if you guys are willing to give away pictures to the players for FREE and to anyone who want is for free cause you love the sport so much, they might consider giving you a pass, ask them, but seriously, you said it, you need MONEY, this is all about money. so the issue really isn't the DVD, think about it, its the fact that you aren't charging enough to pay the $150. If you were really making good money shooting at these games $150 would be nothing, Vendors pay $1,500 for a booth 10x10, if they don't make money they don't come. So do good business and sell your pictures for what they are worth and pay the $150. NPPL is obviously wanting to work with you, give you a break. Choose your burger.

i barely make enough money to maybe...MAYBE cover my plane tickets. Then i still have food, transportation, hotel, and now a $150/$75 fee (depending on if i want to let the nppl freeload off me). the issue really is the DVD. Im all for paying for a pass (it would keep dedicated photographers on the field) I think $150 is just too much on top of every other expense. I might pay $75 if i didnt have to give up images.

now submitting images for for evaluation would be different. I would submit some images, let the NPPL look them over, then offer me fair market value for use of that particular image. (fair market value in paintball really isnt much at all)

[KGB-khrome]

Originally Posted by UnXpected Killah

they can afford 4-500 to a select few photographers for the weekend.

bigger picture: flight, hotel, rental, and reliable and talented photographer isn't as easy as you think to find

[KGB-khrome]

Originally Posted by UnXpected Killah

I think KGB is onto something with the whole having nppl only have 'legit media' covering every event. im sure espn, sports illustrated, etc would be willing to come to every event for free and take up an hour or so in their tv slot or 5 pages in their magazine to try and attract the 2% of people who know what our sport is about. I'm sure they'd make more replaying last months hot dog eating contest or another time slot for sportscenter.

Don't get me wrong though. I'm all for the idea of if you think its too expensive to shoot nppl than its as simple as not going. no stress and no money out of your pocket.

I don't believe in the idea that they are 'paying' you by giving you a discount if you send them images. They make money either way, it just depends on how much. They aren't paying you by giving a discount on a number that they came up with for photo/video to pay. especially when it comes down to it like someone said, at most $1.50 for id and $8-10 for the 5 minutes the girl helps you at the booth. other than that, photo/video takes up no more of anyones time considering most of the refs hardly pay attention to id's.

I believe the nppl needs to focus more on regulating who gets onto the fields before the event rather than trying to weed out people based on how much they are willing to pay. also if the nppl wants photos for promo purposes, im sure they can afford 4-500 to a select few photographers for the weekend.


One last thing, KGB you keep saying you and the league barely turn a profit if any but tell the photo/video they need to increase their prices. Shouldn't the league and yourself charge more so you know youll be able to break even in the worst case scenario? There's obviously a reason why the league hasn't drastically increased it's prices to turn a profit. There's a flaw in the business model if you sell out for an event and barely make it out even.


Like I said dont get me wrong. I've only shot one nppl event at my own cost because I don't consider myself a professional and I don't think I'll really be out shooting on the field much. i just wanted to add my 2 cents.

I'm sure there are always places the league can run better, sure. Lots to consider: especially the economy

[UnXpected Killah]

I'm not too keen on what everyone is charging but i would think 400-500 is on the high side. if someone gets paid that and still doesn't make a little profit needs to learn how to shop around. im sure if the league put up that kind of money than a fitting photog would come out of the woodwork.

[KGB-khrome]

Hey guys, good chatting with you, just want you to know I feel your plight, really do. League is working hard, I'm sure they will improve things as they march forward and always are doing. But discussion is good, constructive suggestions work much better. Peace out.

[MutR.]

i honestly dont think we would even be having this conversation if the sidelines werent saturated with kids thinking theyre photographers cause they got a cool new camera for their birthday.

Step one should have been more strict regulations on photographers, and not higher prices.

[Little_PB_Newb]

Every photographer just add $150 to your rate for photos of NPPL teams and when they ***** you know where to send them..I can't see this lasting long, considering they didn't even have the time to word it properly or spell check.

[outkast kid]

NPPL = 4 the lolz

DC in '09 was awesome, looks like it'll never be that way again. That event didn't even need registration, I literally showed up and was granted full access. No fees, no BS, shot tons of pro games. I wasn't even nearly as experienced then as I am now but now I'm required to pay? bahahahahah!!!!

[Little_PB_Newb]

That doesn't sound very awesome..if anything that free open access is the reason why there's all this BS now.

[p8ntcheck45]

Originally Posted by raehl

I'm going to go ahead and say something I probably shouldn't. But it seems a reality check is warranted here.


How many of you photographers are shooting for Sports Illustrated, Fox Sports, ESPN, AP, Reuters, etc?

Or even APG or Faceful?


All of those major pro leagues ONLY issue free media passes to PRESS PHOTOGRAPHERS. If you are not shooting for a major media publication, you ARE NOT A PRESS PHOTOGRAPHER.

Let's replace NPPL in this situation with the NFL:

"Hi, I would like a media pass for the Packers game."
"Ok, which publication are you with?"
"I am from packerphotography.com. I take pictures and then sell them on my website."
...I'll let you guess what the NFL says at this point.


If you are not a press photographer, those leagues will not give you a pass at all. So, if you're REALLY suggesting that NPPL handles their media like major sports leagues do, you better get your press pass, or plan on staying home.


Here's the reality of the situation. The leagues get minimal to no value by having the vast majority of photographers there, unless they get copies of the pictures, or you're one of the handful of photographers who is taking the pictures that will end up in actual media (no, your photography website does not count.)


And dealing with photographers takes time and resources. The league would be foolish to spend their time and resources so that YOU can then sell photos. You want the league to put forth the resources for you to be there, then you pay the league. If you don't want to pay the league, then the league is better off not having you on the field at all.


Like anything in else in life, just because you want someone to pay you to do something doesn't mean someone wants to pay you to do it.


- Chris

Your reality check is based on your assumptions and not 'reality'

I currently shoot for a international newswire and have shot for numerous paintball magazines.

I shoot major sporting events as a part of my career. (Xgames, MLS, NCAA, NHRA, just to name a few) One thing I have noticed is there are there are plenty of photographers out there covering these events with little experience and are not a 'press photographer'. I have also never had to pay for parking at those events (or the actual media pass for that matter ), and have been given a nice room to relax, edit photos in with internet and power cords, a printed overview of the event, free delicious meals and drinks, and most importantly, RESPECT. For the Portland Timbers, the head of Media Relations actually is on a first name basis with all of the photographers and goes around and makes sure everyone is doing okay and asks for advice. I would love if the NPPL were to be more like those events and leagues That would be comical if the NPPL were to get into such an elitist mindset that they only want legitimate"press photographers" to shoot their events. Paintballers just want friggin photos of themselves and could care less if it was from a Sports Illustrated staff photographer or some guy from Splat Pix 69.


Photographers benefit the NPPL by providing a service to the teams that want their photos taken. How does that add no value to the league? They meet the players desires for photos taken of them. Just because they host the league, doesn't mean they are entitled to free images of their league. As someone else mentioned somewhat, this is the exact same as the NPPL going around to every single booth and asking for a box of product to print their logo on and sell to help promote their league. They might be paying more for their space at the event, but they are there to simply sell their product, where the photographer is creating something that wasn't there before, and wouldn't exist without their efforts.

Dealing with photographers may take time and resources, but if I'm not mistaken, it is a professional league and should have the staff on hand to make such things happen. Maybe a more efficient system is in order in the back end. Pinching the pennies from hard working photographers is just plain stupid.

I'm all for making sure only deserving photographers make it on the field at professional events, don't get me wrong, however I don't think this system is a good one.

[MutR.]

Also note that nowhere in that new media policy does it say that jimmy cant wear shorts.

:nododgy:

[p8ntcheck45]

But duuude that's one of those sorta rules that goes without saying! Wearing shots on a beach makes you look like a god damn retard, while wearing bright orange jumpshoots makes you look legit! Don't like my attitude? I'LL FIGHT YOU!!!!!!

[KGB-khrome]

Originally Posted by p8ntcheck45

Your reality check is based on your assumptions and not 'reality'

I currently shoot for a international newswire and have shot for numerous paintball magazines.

I shoot major sporting events as a part of my career. (Xgames, MLS, NCAA, NHRA, just to name a few) One thing I have noticed is there are there are plenty of photographers out there covering these events with little experience and are not a 'press photographer'. I have also never had to pay for parking at those events (or the actual media pass for that matter ), and have been given a nice room to relax, edit photos in with internet and power cords, a printed overview of the event, free delicious meals and drinks, and most importantly, RESPECT. For the Portland Timbers, the head of Media Relations actually is on a first name basis with all of the photographers and goes around and makes sure everyone is doing okay and asks for advice. I would love if the NPPL were to be more like those events and leagues That would be comical if the NPPL were to get into such an elitist mindset that they only want legitimate"press photographers" to shoot their events. Paintballers just want friggin photos of themselves and could care less if it was from a Sports Illustrated staff photographer or some guy from Splat Pix 69.


Photographers benefit the NPPL by providing a service to the teams that want their photos taken. How does that add no value to the league? They meet the players desires for photos taken of them. Just because they host the league, doesn't mean they are entitled to free images of their league. As someone else mentioned somewhat, this is the exact same as the NPPL going around to every single booth and asking for a box of product to print their logo on and sell to help promote their league. They might be paying more for their space at the event, but they are there to simply sell their product, where the photographer is creating something that wasn't there before, and wouldn't exist without their efforts.

Dealing with photographers may take time and resources, but if I'm not mistaken, it is a professional league and should have the staff on hand to make such things happen. Maybe a more efficient system is in order in the back end. Pinching the pennies from hard working photographers is just plain stupid.

I'm all for making sure only deserving photographers make it on the field at professional events, don't get me wrong, however I don't think this system is a good one.

Well keep in mind that when you shoot major event, you don't have the players haggling to pay $50 dollar per shot to trying to get you at your minimum.

And after you shoot major event, you can sell your images to the media or franchises, they will pay you going rate, not what paintball players want to haggle you for.

Also if you are legit media shooting for media you will get access.

Also Team photographers are allowed on for $75, its there.

I think this policy revealed many more issues that just raising the price. & Submitting DVDs

1. There are way to many people in paintball selling themselves off as professional or somewhat legit business photographers(meaning your daily income comes from photographing not only paintball, but everything)

2. Too many so called photographers are charging way too little to shoot for the teams. Bringing down the value of photography.

[m3s0h0rn7]

Ok, we've explored principle opposition-- so now let's ask why is this happening at all?

Might it have to do with the fact that at the last event, filming on the sidelines of Ollie vs. Frank during Game 2 was recorded? That on the field, PBFASHION.COM had recorded the tumble between the two or maybe this has to do with the bikini contest?

My other question is this: since we know most "legit" PBPRESS is desperate for cash, that maybe one of the magazines had hinted at dropping out if they didn't get their way. There's a correlation that could be made here- if magazines aren't making the same money that they used to, having no PBPRESS for the NPPL makes things impossible in an already dire situation.

Maybe Gary was involved, maybe he wasn't, in this decision. He's all pro, but he's a businessman as any other photog. on the field. If someone had questioned one of us and said "you've been with our company for many years, all the major PBPRESS look at your work and you're the major provider of photos for our league; now, we'd like to charge those competitors more money and put up more roadblocks." what would you, I or we say?

Having an official explination on behalf of the NPPL would be very helpful, one I expected within the press release, not only after the fact.

To me, this seems like a league desperate to create value in what they have made an otherwise valueless market.

EDIT: Btw, "Legit" media photographers are doing all the things normal photographers are doing now. They sell their photos online just like anyone else and line up teams for both corporate and private use.

[Little_PB_Newb]

I think it's safe to say that Gary was not involved in this whatsoever. This is the exact opposite of any idea for media regulation that he's ever told me about.

[m3s0h0rn7]

Originally Posted by Little_PB_Newb

I think it's safe to say that Gary was not involved in this whatsoever. This is the exact opposite of any idea for media regulation that he's ever told me about.

As has been my experience with Gary. He wants to see everyone succeed.

But I don't know where this decision came from, who thought of it, why it's being implemented, who's opinion might have been a deciding factor. That's why a PR is so important- it lays out information in plain text. What I'm really suggesting is that what was posted makes everyone look bad, leaving so many questions out there.

[AKAMedia]

I was so ready to go to the DC event and film the teams that asked me too, now with the new rules idk if i can make it out because i just dont see it possible. Sad day for me

[Mike Grenade]

It's been suggested that a "photography company" may have been involved in making this change, but it wasn't Gary.

Also, the prices photographers charge--at least the experienced ones, which I believe makes up most of those in this thread--are the equilibrium prices for the market. Teams scatter like flies if prices go practically any higher. Part of this can be blamed on GWCs shooting for free or stupid low rates, and part lies with teams not being educated in what to look for in a photographer. Usually the only thing they'll look at is cost, and lowest price wins by default. Yes, we could educate them, but it's a Sisyphean task. People love simple comparisons, especially simple numbers, and when they can simply compare x to y they'll do it. If that weren't the case, people wouldn't be buying appliances from Target.

[Pakistani]

for photographers covering teams(as most of us would be), they are charged $75, but are they expected to turn in a DVD, as well? there seems to be a lot of confusion around this(for me at least).

[MutR.]

Main field access without DVD submission

4. Photography Companies (non Media) WHO WILL NOT submit a DVD of images after event; new price $150. Must Register online ( send request online with company info and proof of business)

Divisional field access without DVD submission

1. Photography Companies (non Media) Photographerss WHO WILL NOT submit DVD of images after event; new price $150. Must Register online ( send request online with company info and name of person to come)

So, any way you see it. If you dont want to give them a DVD then its $150 so might aswell get the main field access one.