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Old 09-03-2011, 08:31 PM #64
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Make me pay $75 and give you a DVD of images and see how good your wedding photos are. In fact, see if i even show up.

Have fun having Gary be the only photographer at your event (nothing against Gary. Hes awesome, but he is the only one THAT invested in the league that he cant just walk away from it).

Like i said earlier. most of us make pennies doing this when its all said and done, and im sure most of us do it only because we love doing it for the players. If im not doing it for the players, then im not doing it. Im sure not doing it at that big of a loss to me. Its not just $75. Being that i can sell a set of images (20-30 images) to a high school senior for upwards of $300. That would be a $375 loss for me, and that's only 20 images. I shoot roughly 1,000-1,500 images per event. you can do the math on that one.

What does it cost the NPPL to have us on the field? a whopping 50 cents to print an ID card, and maybe $8/hr to pay the ladies salary that printed my card. WHOA big spenders!

I hope nobody shows up to shoot the event, because when the kids come in this forum asking "What photog shot this team" it wont be US having to deal with them like usual.
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Old 09-03-2011, 10:46 PM #65
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Originally Posted by MutR. View Post
Make me pay $75 and give you a DVD of images and see how good your wedding photos are. In fact, see if i even show up.

Have fun having Gary be the only photographer at your event (nothing against Gary. Hes awesome, but he is the only one THAT invested in the league that he cant just walk away from it).

Like i said earlier. most of us make pennies doing this when its all said and done, and im sure most of us do it only because we love doing it for the players. If im not doing it for the players, then im not doing it. Im sure not doing it at that big of a loss to me. Its not just $75. Being that i can sell a set of images (20-30 images) to a high school senior for upwards of $300. That would be a $375 loss for me, and that's only 20 images. I shoot roughly 1,000-1,500 images per event. you can do the math on that one.

What does it cost the NPPL to have us on the field? a whopping 50 cents to print an ID card, and maybe $8/hr to pay the ladies salary that printed my card. WHOA big spenders!

I hope nobody shows up to shoot the event, because when the kids come in this forum asking "What photog shot this team" it wont be US having to deal with them like usual.
Let's do the math, if you can sell 20-30 images for $300 and you are shooting 1500 images per event, that's $15,000 for the entire 1500 images and you are still complaining about having to pay $150 total without submitting your DVD, wow, I'm gonna suggest to the NPPL they should charge more for the MEDIA PASS. They are charging way too much and Thank you Chris earlier post for bringing it to reality, non of these guys here would ever be aloud to shoot a major event. NPPL is giving you a chance to get your image onto a AD and get for name out there by asking to use your image so you can make the break from a non professional and into having your image seen by other professionals and maybe get hired to shoot, instead you're all wining about the DVD. Stop crying and Just pay the $150 so you don't have to submit a DVD, they're giving an option, its not like saying everyone has to submit a DVD.
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Old 09-03-2011, 10:54 PM #66
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Are you ****ing high? He said 300 for 20-30 senior portraits, most photographers don't take home $250 from an event as it is. The thing isn't that photographers already make pennies per hour after expenses shooting these events, and by charging more they're taking away any profit they have left. Assuming the DVD of images is to be used for advertising and promotion, they better fork up thousands for those rights. Personal use paintball photos are one thing, rights to images don't come cheap.

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Old 09-03-2011, 10:56 PM #67
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Tournament organizer wants to charge non-press photographers? No problem
Tournament organizer wants to create a price scale based on experience? No problem
Tournament organizer wants free images and free use of those images to promote itself? Nope.

Earlier Jung spoke out of both sides of his mouth, chiding people for wanting stuff for free, and then defending the NPPL for wanting images for free. Giving a discount to shoot the event is not the same as properly licensing a photographers work for your own promotional use.

Chris, you don't put much value in photographers or their work, and that's fine. Neither did I until I started to learn photography. There is far more work that goes in to the creation of a good photograph than most people realize. Its hard to communicate that work to a non-photog, and therefore convince them of its value. Again, that's fine.

But when you spend "a couple hundred for the one set of event photos," you get what you pay for. IOW, you'll get ****. If you're happy with ****, and think you can adequately promote your events with ****, then more power to you! FYI, it's exactly this culture from event organizers and other industry that has caused all of the, IMO, great photographers to flee the sport. Their talent and work are gone, and it's an uglier sport for it.

To those complaining about the cost of the NPPL media passes, you can either make it work as a business model or you can't. If enough can't, and the NPPL sees a detrimental effect, they will have to reduce that price to lure those photographers back. As was talked about above, teams on the fence between the NPPL and another league might base their decision in part on whether they will be able to hire a freelance shooter to capture their experience for them. If not, if that never happens, the NPPL will likely not see any loss in business and the media pass will not go down. It might even go up more, testing the limits of the market. <shrugs> That's just business, folks.

In this way, you gotta vote with your feet. If you don't like the price, don't pay it. If you can make that price work, and as a result you have fewer "amateurs" getting in the way of your shots, then win/win, right?

The price to shoot, however, has nothing to do with handing over your images for free. Seeing one of my images used in NPPL promotional material, watermarked or no, and not getting paid for that is theft. Any court in this country will agree. You either have my permission to use my work or you don't. I can't be everywhere or see every piece of NPPL promotional material, so I am better off not giving them access to my photos in the first place. Its better than wasting time being diligent that the NPPL hasn't pilfered my work. Is that fair of me? Sure, the NPPL has done exactly this in the past, so gets none of my trust (one of the side effects of maintaining that brand, folks).

As I see it, there are two separate issues. The cost to shoot, and the desire to not give images away for free. The cost to shoot is a simple cost/benefit analysis. You can either afford to do business or you can't. Expecting a photographer to give their images away for free is unacceptable. And is reason enough to reject any pricing structure proposed. For me, at least.
I know the value of photography, I work in the design/ advertising industry and have worked in the design/adveritising industry for over 16 years, I've hired photographers and pay them what they deserve, I understand licensing and what goes into editing and learning the art of photography, trust me I appreciate it as much as I appreciate my field, but at the same time I understand as Chris put it before hand, You wouldn't get mile of an event media pass at ESPN or any other major event, unless you have the credentials to show of your work. Those credentials come through experience, having put in your dues and getting a BREAK, someone giving you a chance by paying for your image, not some kids who want his glory in print, but a Manufacturer or Media, who recognizes your talent an puts value to your work. Everybody pays there dues, NPPL is not forcing anyone to give anything to anyone that doesn't want to. JUST think of it as a Raise not to $75 BUT to $150, cause at that price, you don't have to give anything to anyone, pay your money and take your pictures and sell as many as your want. Isn't that clear enough? $75 IF you want to submit a DVD, and $150 IF you don't, and by the looks of it MOST OF YOU DON'T, so just pay the $150, end of discussion.

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Old 09-03-2011, 11:06 PM #68
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That's what I said, my friend. The cost of shooting an NPPL event is a wholly separate issue to me. It costs what it costs, and you can either make money at $150 or you can't. If you can't, then charge your teams more or don't bother. That's just the free market working.

But you know as well as I do that re-using your graphics work for commercial profit is a whole different world. A whole different issue. Not even worth having in the same thread. That's why you keep going back to the cost of a media pass. I don't care what it costs for a media pass. I think it should be more, and I think teams should be paying these photographers more. But that's neither here nor there.

What I take issue with is expecting photographers to hand over their work to the NPPL so they can use them for their own promotions with no compensation or attempt at licensing that work from the photographer.
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Old 09-03-2011, 11:07 PM #69
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Originally Posted by KGB-khrome View Post
NPPL is giving you a chance to get your image onto a AD and get for name out there by asking to use your image so you can make the break from a non professional and into having your image seen by other professionals
Quick, name the photographer who took the last photo you saw in the media.
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Old 09-03-2011, 11:15 PM #70
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Old 09-03-2011, 11:17 PM #71
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That's not true at all. I pay photographers all the time, and I specifically pay photographers to take photos at the NCPA National Championships.

But I hire the photographers I want. All the photographers I don't hire, regardless of talent, have no value to me.

It's not that I don't think photographers are not valuable.

I just don't think 30 photographers is more valuable than, say, 2.
More valuable to you, the event organizer. 30 photographers to choose from to shoot your team is more valuable to the teams than 2. And since the overall team experience is important to the event organizer, it seems that making arrangements to handle 30 photographers is in its best interest. Making some scratch for those arrangements is reasonable, and I said as much.

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And nowhere did I see NPPL say photographers had to give away their images for free. They did offer a reduced rate for a pass if you were willing to share copies of the photos you took.
The use of the photos is never explicit anywhere in that news release, which is more problematic than if they made it clear they planned on using the photos for NPPL promotion. Until, that is, this:

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The league needs to promote itself and using images is one way, well if they don't promote themselves, you wouldn't have an event to shoot at.
So far as I know, Jung holds a position in the NPPL in marketing. (which is great, because I really like Jung and I really like his designs. This isn't personal, and I never hesitate to tell my friends when I think they are wrong.)

So it seems they do intend to use the photos turned in for their own promotions. Promotions they hope helps them profit. You don't see the problem here?

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* Side note: I only pay a few hundred dollars for photographers, but that's not for exclusive control: They're still welcome to shoot for and sell photos to teams, or whatever else it is photographers do to make a buck.
I take back what I said about you not valuing photographers. Now... let's work on you valuing those photographers a bit more. Cost of living increase, man!
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Old 09-03-2011, 11:24 PM #72
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Quick, name the photographer who took the last photo you saw in the media.
The last photographer that NPPL used is Gary Baum, that is exactly the problem and why they are doing this, cause they are not getting any submission of images. Did you all know that the contract you signed/waiver says that NPPL has right to use your images, yeh read it again next time IF and I SAY IF you guys ever go to another event, since you are all pissed. So breath and listen, NPPL has been having problems getting good shots from people cause people aren't submitting and They don't have time to track down every single of your sites to see if they can find a good image. And as RICH as they look, trust me, they are working with teams of volunteers. Solution: give a price break to people who will let us use their images, and raise it to those who won't, do you think they have the money to pay for every shot they use, they would go broke instantly. I know the value of photography. But I also know the reality, just because you take great pictures doesn't mean some media company or Manufacturer is gonna knock down your door to hire you. It's about knowing the right people and getting that break, getting exposure. I have no issue with not wanting to give up your dvd, just pay the full price so you don't have to, BUT and I say a BIG BUT, if you want to opportunity to maybe get your image on an NPPL AD or NPPL Rule book cover, their website/their banners, which will get you tons of exposure, by all means do what it takes to make it in the industry. Look at how many photographers are on here posting, so all you guys are just doing it for the fun of it, Non of you want to get a break and get paid? Unless you are Gary Baum who is Rich cause of his other business, I think we all wanna make money doing what we love. Trust me everyone is trying to service , if you look at it as someone else said it, take the opportunity, looks like every non media photographer is gonna leave NPPL, more room for those who don't.
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Old 09-03-2011, 11:32 PM #73
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Originally Posted by TzeentchianGod View Post
More valuable to you, the event organizer. 30 photographers to choose from to shoot your team is more valuable to the teams than 2. And since the overall team experience is important to the event organizer, it seems that making arrangements to handle 30 photographers is in its best interest. Making some scratch for those arrangements is reasonable, and I said as much.



The use of the photos is never explicit anywhere in that news release, which is more problematic than if they made it clear they planned on using the photos for NPPL promotion. Until, that is, this:



So far as I know, Jung holds a position in the NPPL in marketing. (which is great, because I really like Jung and I really like his designs. This isn't personal, and I never hesitate to tell my friends when I think they are wrong.)

So it seems they do intend to use the photos turned in for their own promotions. Promotions they hope helps them profit. You don't see the problem here?



I take back what I said about you not valuing photographers. Now... let's work on you valuing those photographers a bit more. Cost of living increase, man!
I've been HELPing the league for the last two year, you know I didn't get paid a DIME, not a freaking dime the first 2 YEARS, why cause I believe in 7 man, love the sport, you wanna say anything to that go ahead. I believe in Chuck and the league. Most of the people at the League are not cashing, we're not banking anything right now, You don't want to believe it but we are trying to rebuild what was great and it's growing. HB sold out, and larger, Chicago was larger, DC more teams than last year - needs work but on its way. VEGAS will probably sell out again. HB NEXT YEAR WILL SELL OUT AGAIN. I'm doing it cause I truly love the sport. And trust me so are the rest of the people behind the scene.
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Old 09-03-2011, 11:36 PM #74
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i love people drawing the comparison between PB photographers and press photographers...
yes, the NFL only gives passes to established press photographers, and anyone else can go F themselves. fine. The problem is that the NPPL isn't the NFL and they dont have that privilege. if the NFL said "give us your pics" people would still be lining up for a chance to shoot those games, but when the NPPL does it, its a slap in the face and an obvious money making scheme.

Quote:
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The last photographer that NPPL used is Gary Baum, that is exactly the problem and why they are doing this, cause they are not getting any submission of images. Did you all know that the contract you signed/waiver says that NPPL has right to use your images, yeh read it again next time IF and I SAY IF you guys ever go to another event, since you are all pissed. So breath and listen, NPPL has been having problems getting good shots from people cause people aren't submitting and They don't have time to track down every single of your sites to see if they can find a good image. And as RICH as they look, trust me, they are working with teams of volunteers. Solution: give a price break to people who will let us use their images, and raise it to those who won't, do you think they have the money to pay for every shot they use, they would go broke instantly. I know the value of photography. But I also know the reality, just because you take great pictures doesn't mean some media company or Manufacturer is gonna knock down your door to hire you. It's about knowing the right people and getting that break, getting exposure. I have no issue with not wanting to give up your dvd, just pay the full price so you don't have to, BUT and I say a BIG BUT, if you want to opportunity to maybe get your image on an NPPL AD or NPPL Rule book cover, their website/their banners, which will get you tons of exposure, by all means do what it takes to make it in the industry. Look at how many photographers are on here posting, so all you guys are just doing it for the fun of it, Non of you want to get a break and get paid? Unless you are Gary Baum who is Rich cause of his other business, I think we all wanna make money doing what we love. Trust me everyone is trying to service , if you look at it as someone else said it, take the opportunity, looks like every non media photographer is gonna leave NPPL, more room for those who don't.

if you can afford to pay for my work, dont ****ing steal it instead.
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Old 09-03-2011, 11:41 PM #75
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if you can afford to pay for my work, dont ****ing steal it instead.[/quote]

No one is stealing your work, you have options, just pay the $150, and walk proud and walk free.
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Old 09-03-2011, 11:45 PM #76
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Oh another thing, you should be making the players pay your for your value, you're here complaining about not getting paid enough, if you love the sport then do it cause you love it, if you need money make the players pay you what you are really worth. not $300 buck for 20 shots! Seems like you should be complaining about them and also not selling yourself short to them!
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Old 09-03-2011, 11:54 PM #77
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If we made teams pay what our value is, we wouldn't have any teams. It's called adjusting to your clientele. Why do you think so many people are always asking who took photos of them after a tournament is over? If a majority of teams now refuse to pay x amount for quality work, what makes you think a price increase is going to change their mind? Personally, what we charge is a fair price for us and for teams.

Also, no one is charging $300 for 20 shots, quit deluding yourself.
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Old 09-04-2011, 12:10 AM #78
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just pay the $150 fee then and don't send them a dvd of your pics

am I missing something?
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Old 09-04-2011, 12:12 AM #79
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We can't charge that much because teams aren't willing to pay that since they're already paying thousands of dollars for entry, paint, airfare, etc. We have to be willing to do it for less because like I said, teams won't pay more than what some of us charge. Someone of them flat out refuse to pay because they think it's a ridiculous price anyway. Look at the quote in my sig, that kind of gives you an idea of how cheap a lot of players are. There are teams that will book a photographer and appreciate what we do, but if we hiked up our price, I'm sure they'd say "No thank you."

Look, none of us are out to make a profit, we do it for fun. Any photographer that gets into paintball photography thinking they're going to be making the big bucks needs a reality check. The money we get from teams is so it can cover our expenses from the weekend. The booked teams I've gotten helps cut down the cost and basically made my flight cost me $30-50, after it's all said and done, but I still owe my share on hotel and rental car.
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Old 09-04-2011, 12:12 AM #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB-khrome

I have no issue with not wanting to give up your dvd, just pay the full price so you don't have to, BUT and I say a BIG BUT, if you want to opportunity to maybe get your image on an NPPL AD or NPPL Rule book cover, their website/their banners, which will get you tons of exposure, by all means do what it takes to make it in the industry.
This I have an issue with.

How exactly does one "make it in the industry" when the league itself has set a precedent of making the photographer pay them for the opportunity to have their hard work used any way the league sees fit?

Edit: And just out of curiosity, how much was the photographer paid this year for the photo used on the front of their rulebook before people were asked to submit DVDs?
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Old 09-04-2011, 12:25 AM #81
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This I have an issue with.

How exactly does one "make it in the industry" when the league itself has set a precedent of making the photographer pay them for the opportunity to have their hard work used any way the league sees fit?
AS you can see I have a lot of time tonight, uhhmmm, getting published is a big deal, where are you coming from. Having your own site or blog site doesn't really constitute getting real work published, there are so many paintballphotography sites now days they are a dime a dozen. To the media world to say someone else used it in the media has weight my friend.

I have a idea, trust me I not against you guys. Would it help, SO YOU CAN RAISE YOUR PRICES, if the NPPL LISTED AUTHORIZED NPPL PHOTOGRAPHERS, and help promote you guys and create a set minimum for you guys, since the only photographers shooting will be the ones who pay, then either they have to use you guys or they have no photo's, just a thought.
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Old 09-04-2011, 12:28 AM #82
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This I have an issue with.

Edit: And just out of curiosity, how much was the photographer paid this year for the photo used on the front of their rulebook before people were asked to submit DVDs?

current image was given permission with photo credit

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Old 09-04-2011, 12:34 AM #83
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Quote:
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AS you can see I have a lot of time tonight, uhhmmm, getting published is a big deal, where are you coming from. Having your own site or blog site doesn't really constitute getting real work published, there are so many paintballphotography sites now days they are a dime a dozen. To the media world to say someone else used it in the media has weight my friend.

I have a idea, trust me I not against you guys. Would it help, SO YOU CAN RAISE YOUR PRICES, if the NPPL LISTED AUTHORIZED NPPL PHOTOGRAPHERS, and help promote you guys and create a set minimum for you guys, since the only photographers shooting will be the ones who pay, then either they have to use you guys or they have no photo's, just a thought.
Being published doesn't mean as much as it used to, anymore. Magazines will take anyone who's willing to give them photos.

The idea you suggested would be good, but the thing is that an "Authorized NPPL Photographer" is basically someone who paid the media pass fee. There really isn't a way we can raise the price for team coverage; a majority of people feel like they're entitled to photographs after an event and the problem is that a lot of people starting out don't mind giving them the photos, so the cycle continues.

To get this thread back on topic, Auctionjunkie! did bring up that it didn't state that we had to give the NPPL unwatermarked photos, but I'm willing to bet that once we give them DVDs with watermarked images that are small, they're going to change their policy.
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Old 09-04-2011, 12:39 AM #84
ionshooter93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB-khrome View Post
Did you all know that the contract you signed/waiver says that NPPL has right to use your images, yeh read it again next time IF and I SAY IF you guys ever go to another event, since you are all pissed.
Do you have a copy of this agreement?.... So this means photographers who pay the $150 don't have to supply the images to the NPPL but the NPPL can still use them then if they find them online? If so that makes this policy even more outrageous. Does this also apply to all media at the event?



Also. Photo credits mean nothing. The only person who reads them is your mother.
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