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Old 08-22-2011, 01:38 PM #1
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Thread of the Week: D1 All Stars, PSP-NPPL Merger Implications, 2012

It's been awhile and it may be awhile before I can spend any time here again, so I thought I'd pack a few week' threads into one.

PSP D1 All Stars
This one isn't serious, just for fun; if you were to put together a team of the PSP 2011 D1 All Stars, who would be on the team? In giving your answer, please state if you are actively involved in D1, attend PSP events and watch, although not play, D1 or if you just 'know things' because you are on the internet, talk to people or maybe watch one or two of the teams practice.

D1 Teams bumping to Pro
This is a short, meant to lead into the 3rd topic below. Bluntly: how do you think the teams presently playing PSP D1 will do if they bump up to pro next year, assuming no other changes (to format, divisional structure, etc...).

2012 PSP D1 through Pro Divisions
Finally: if the PSP and NPPL Merge, what happens? Do all the NPPL pro teams become PSP pro teams? How would that impact the D1 teams moving up? Would the NPPL pro's become D1? How would that impact the D1 teams moving up? Would we see the re-incorporation of a Semi-Pro division and, if so, how would that impact the D1 teams? In some respects, this is a question of how NPPL Pro teams and PSP D1 teams rank up. Does NPPL Pro dilute PSP pro enough that D1 teams can hope to do better than teams bumping up have in the past? Or does it create another layer (Semi-Pro) that teams have to graduate through (and, in theory, develop a higher state of readiness for pro).


That's all I've got. Hopefully it generates some interesting dialogue.
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Old 08-22-2011, 02:07 PM #2
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PSP and NPPL Merge
PSP-NPPL recreate Semi-Pro
All D1 PSP teams go to SP, all NPPL Pro teams go to SP

Bottom 2 teams of Pro drop down to SP, Top 2 SP bump to Pro each season

There is a clear skill gap in the Pro ranks and I think bringing back SP and utilizing the idea stated above will help handle this issue.
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Old 08-22-2011, 02:10 PM #3
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Just to be clear, I'm not asking about the format (already did that one), asking how the teams merge in terms of on-field performance.

Is an NPPL Pro team = a PSP D1 team?
Maybe NPPL Pro > PSP D1?

If we have 10 PSP D1 teams and we say there are 3 "Elite" teams, 3 "Very Good, not Great" teams, and 4 "Other" and then there are 10 NPPL teams with a similiar breakdown, how does it all pan out? Will the D1 teams fit well into the new Semi Pro division? Are the D1 teams just going to be overmatched no matter what?
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Old 08-22-2011, 02:18 PM #4
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I believe Mutiny played an event or two in the SP division of the PSP when it was around. They did pretty good, but they didn't stomp anyone, if I recall correctly. I think a lot of the "Pro" NPPL teams sit around the same skill level as them.

My opinion is that there are a few D1 teams that need to move upwards. There are a few Pro teams that need to move down. Bringing back the SP division would be ideal for this situation. I think a lot of the NPPL "Pro" teams would fit perfectly here as well. Obviously there will be exceptions, but this should cover most of the teams.
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Old 08-22-2011, 03:33 PM #5
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My thoughts are kinda like OhIoCoNtRActKilLa's.

- Offer the (top) NPPL Pro teams spots in PSP Pro if they want to (and aren't already playing PSP pro)

- Bring back semi-pro and move the top PSP/NPPL D1 teams into that bracket, and perhaps the bottom pro teams?

- Bring back end of season relegation like NPPL had (top X semi-pro move up, bottom X pro move down - Millenium Series still does that and it seems to work there)
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Old 08-22-2011, 04:21 PM #6
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PSP D1 All Stars?
Couldn't speak to that because I donít know enough about the other teams outside of 187 and Canes.

D1 Teams bumping to Pro?
I think top teams like Canes, 187, Assault, Topgun will be competitive (certainly will have trouble winning matches) Teams like the Canes who have a few guys who have played pro and been at that level will likely have a edge over teams who donít. Will the Canes smash Dynasty and RL next year??? Donít think so but I could see them doing better than teams bumping up without Pro exp on the roster. Bottom line is I donít see many of these teams being pushovers however I donít know that youíll see a whole lot of W's. I guess the bigger question is when do you step up? When you think you can compete or when you think you can win? The answer is different depending on who you ask.

2012 PSP D1 through Pro Divisions?
A lot of those teams should fall into the SP bracket and really the only true "Pro" teams are the ones playing PSP as well.
PSP D1 teams should go through the SP bracket otherwise you would just have a flooded Pro division.
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Old 08-22-2011, 10:38 PM #7
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I feel that the only teams that should have the right to bump to pro next year are teams that are D1 in the PSP at this time. With that I feel a Semi-Pro division needs to be brought back.

I do agree with Sumorai on the relegation.

Jeff can we reverse this question in regaurds to if they go to a NPPL style how would this effect PSP only teams...
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Old 08-22-2011, 11:16 PM #8
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NPPL/PSP merger - there definitely needs to be an increase of the number of pro teams. Whether it's back to 13 or up to 16, I don't know. I feel that the top NPPL teams (who aren't already playing PSP) should be able to get a pro spot if they have the support/funding to do so. Same with current PSP teams, if one or two of the top 3 D1 teams can have the support/funding to do so, they should. Rest of the NPPL pro teams and top d1 teams should be placed in semi pro. D1 NPPL... Top team goes to semi-Pro, 2nd place given the option.

However it's done, there would definitely be a need for a semi pro division. I like the regulatation/deregulation idea of two semi-pro and pro teams taking affect (effect?) end of 2012 season.

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Old 08-23-2011, 08:14 AM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMSGuy24 View Post
I feel that the only teams that should have the right to bump to pro next year are teams that are D1 in the PSP at this time.
Why should PSP D1 teams get the nod over NPPL Pro teams?

Maybe the NPPL pro teams can come to Cup for a playoff against PSP D1 teams to determine who gets the priviledge to bump up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EMSGuy24 View Post
Jeff can we reverse this question in regaurds to if they go to a NPPL style how would this effect PSP only teams...
We can, but why? That's not going to happen.
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Old 08-23-2011, 08:15 AM #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak36 View Post
However it's done, there would definitely be a need for a semi pro division.
Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak36 View Post
I like the regulatation/deregulation idea of two semi-pro and pro teams taking affect (effect?) end of 2012 season.
I wonder if there is a reason the PSP never adopted this?
Seems like most of the things they do have a reason (whether the general public agrees with it or not...).
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Old 08-23-2011, 08:40 AM #11
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Merger - IF there is a merger I think that the PSP pro teams and teams who have played psp pro but have chosen to play psp over nppl should be the initial pro teams and the D1 and NPPL pro teams should have to play semi pro for a year to earn their spot. I don't believe it would be beneficial to a team that has the funding and personnel to be able to slide into a pro spot.

D1 Teams Competing - I don't think that the D1 teams can compete with the pro teams, the top pro teams play a different style that I haven't seen many other teams play and because of that I think that the D1 teams need some work even if they do have some pro players on their rosters.

My question is though, say the pro teams from NPPL and the top tier D1 PSP teams do make the semi pro division again, how does that impact the rest of the showing for other divisional teams? There were 10 D1 teams in NJ and 15 D2 teams, say the half of the D1 teams feel they can play at the semi pro level, would there be enough D2 teams that feel they can play D1 to make the division function? Would the merger bring in THAT many new teams to fill the higher level divisions to make it worth while to run them?
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Old 08-23-2011, 10:03 AM #12
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Just to give some high level (very high level) ideas on the costs for pro, I estimate that it would take about:
  • $47,000 for all travel (that is every flight, rental car and hotel room for practices or events)
  • $38,000 for practices (that includes practice paint, entry fees, traveling practices, etc…)
  • $30,000 for paint (that's 1000 cases between practices and events)
  • $15,000 for coaching and staff (flights and salary)
  • $5,000 for gear not covered by sponsors
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Old 08-23-2011, 11:26 AM #13
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I’m going to take a pass on the first two questions and go straight to the merger question.

My take on the NPPL Pro teams making the jump over:
San Diego Dynasty – Already playing PSP Pro
Edmonton Impact – Already playing PSP Pro
LA Infamous – Already playing Pro – Rumored to be dropping out next season anyway
Chicago Aftershock – Already playing Pro
Tampa Bay Damage – Already Playing Pro
San Antonio X-Factory – Already Playing Pro

Sacramento XSV – Could get a Pro Slot – appears to have staying power, marketing, backing, etc..
St. Louis Avalanche – Really depends upon what happens with their players – if they merge together with the Canes they could collectively take a spot.

The Next group of teams I just don’t know enough about their player base, etc.. But I would say generically maybe one or two of them should be offered a spot.
Oakland Blast
Chicago Legend
DC Arsenal
Portland Uprising
Indianapolis Mutiny
Seattle Thunder
San Francisco Explicit
Vancouver Vendetta

That means you would be adding 4 teams (XSV, Avalanche/Canes, Blast, Arsenal) to the pro ranks and then I’d say you take a few (2 or 3) PSP D1 teams and round it out at a total of 16 pro teams. 4 Divisions of 4 – each team plays 3 prelim matches – top team (maybe top 2) in each bracket moves on to Sunday. Or two division of 8 – each team plays 7 matches (that’s a lot of matches to get field time for) – top 3 in each bracket move on – top team in each bracket gets a bye.

No need for the Semi-Pro bracket – With the above math you’d end up with maybe 6 NPPL Pro teams that might play D1 PSP + 7 current PSP D1 teams that would still be there plus 2 or 3 D2 teams making the jump up – leaving that division at a total of roughly 15-16 teams. Even if Ĺ the NPPL D1 teams that played all the events jumped in that would only add another 5 teams – making it closer to 20 teams in Division 1 – that makes sense to me.
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Old 08-23-2011, 11:27 AM #14
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Jeff - some of your cost categories appear to overlap....
You have an "All Travel" bucket but also include Travel (at least in the discriptoin) for two other categories

You have Paint listed in multiple places as well
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Old 08-23-2011, 11:55 AM #15
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Quote:
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Jeff - some of your cost categories appear to overlap....
You have an "All Travel" bucket but also include Travel (at least in the discriptoin) for two other categories

You have Paint listed in multiple places as well
Yes.
I didn't want to post my full budget projection, so did the easiest thing. Non-MECE buckets.

The total is north of $100K, for a 4-event season (all those numbers were based on a 4-event season).
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Old 08-23-2011, 01:44 PM #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Stein View Post
Why should PSP D1 teams get the nod over NPPL Pro teams?

Maybe the NPPL pro teams can come to Cup for a playoff against PSP D1 teams to determine who gets the priviledge to bump up?

My feeling towards this, was I feel that a D1 teams have paid there dues so that they deserve first shot. I think you should be loyal to the teams that have brought your program to where it is...

We can, but why? That's not going to happen.
I have heard rumors that we might see the NPPL style, thats why... I have not seen anything of format so thats why I asked if we could do a devils advocate and discuss both aspects.
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Old 08-23-2011, 01:56 PM #17
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Quote:
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I have heard rumors that we might see the NPPL style, thats why... I have not seen anything of format so thats why I asked if we could do a devils advocate and discuss both aspects.
From whom have you heard said rumors?

A 7-man proponent, no doubt.
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Old 08-23-2011, 02:04 PM #18
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I would not call the people I have heard it from that.. But like you just said, from people that love PSP its going to be all PSP, From NPPL people its going to be a NPPL league. Until we hear officially why can't we talk about both. I would assume that this would affect you along with Dave an there teams for next season.
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Old 08-23-2011, 02:51 PM #19
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We can talk about it.
Or, rather, you (the royal you) can. I won't. I don't belive it will happen.

We can also talk about zombies.
Again, I will refrain, as I don't believe in them.


(Actually, I do believe in zombies)
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Old 08-23-2011, 02:52 PM #20
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Doesn't affect my team - we won the D2 season title in 7-man several years ago - I'm confident we can play paintball - regardless of the format.
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Old 08-23-2011, 02:57 PM #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Stein View Post
Just to give some high level (very high level) ideas on the costs for pro, I estimate that it would take about:
  • $47,000 for all travel (that is every flight, rental car and hotel room for practices or events)
  • $38,000 for practices (that includes practice paint, entry fees, traveling practices, etcÖ)
  • $30,000 for paint (that's 1000 cases between practices and events)
  • $15,000 for coaching and staff (flights and salary)
  • $5,000 for gear not covered by sponsors
Jesus. I figured it was pretty damn expensive, but for some reason, I didn't think it'd be up that high.
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