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Old 08-12-2011, 12:28 PM #1
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The War on Drugs - necessary afterall?

(To keep the GOP debate thread from turning into another emotion driven drug discussion, the "War on Drugs" was brought up by posters, so dispute this new study and that topic here)

This report talks about the dangers of drugs, and how Nixon may not be the guy who started this so called "War on Drugs"

http://www.ibhinc.org/pdfs/IBHCommen...eport71211.pdf

"The Global Commission’s Reckless Proposal Advocating Drug Legalization
"The third recommendation of the Global Commission is to “Encourage experimentation by governments with models of legal regulation of drugs (with cannabis, for example) that are designed to undermine the power of organized crime and safeguard the health and security of their citizens.” There is no description of how legalization would be structured nor an analysis of legalization proposals. The report does not even attempt to answer questions such as: Which drugs would be legalized? Would there be any limits to legalization, or would the gates permitting use be thrown wide open? Who could buy drugs? Would the use by children and adolescents be prohibited, as is currently the policy for alcohol and tobacco products? If so, how would diversion to youth be prevented? Is it important to protect young developing brains from currently illegal drugs?

Then:

"The Commission report is not a serious, carefully considered proposal, but a simplistic, dogmatic approach to a complex problem that carries with it a host of unintended consequences. The social and economic costs to humanity would be profound, with its greatest impact upon the helpless, the innocent, and the naïve, while serving the causes of negligence and greed. It would be up to a subsequent generation to correct such a folly."

"If currently illegal drugs were made legal, rates of use, abuse and dependence would increase along with the many related social costs including unemployment and under-employment as well as the costs of health care."

You all can read the entire study/statement. In short: The folks who support legalizing drugs, do not specify which drugs to legalize, how to make them legal, and the ramifications those drugs could have on impressionable youth. So drug addicts desire for their fix > the welfare of the country?

Some questions I would begin this by raising:

1 - Some of legalities of such a war could be questioned. Is this a federal argument, or a state one? Should states be allowed to set their own drug laws?

2- Which drugs? There are certain people who say "drugs aren't bad" and they speak of marijuana. Then there are other who say "drugs are not bad' and they mean all drugs. That's a MAJOR difference, so specifics on which drugs could be legal is still a huge question.

3 - Who would sell these drugs? How would they be obtained - convenience stores?

4 - Drugs inhibit people from rational thinking, and their need for a fix should not outweigh the need of the safety of the children in this country who can be convinced drugs are good by per pressure. Agree or let the kids fend for themselves because some people feel the "right" to put whatever they want in their body overrules the desire by others to maintain the dignity of the country?

Most of these illegal drugs aren't even that enjoyable. I don't see the appeal honestly. I will say - we could at least get rid of all the illegal aliens accused of selling or doing drugs by shipping them back to Mexico and Central/South America, and free up some much needed space and tax money by continuing to fund illegal aliens in our prison system for any crime at all. I'm sure even the drug loving crowd would support deporting all those illegals accused of selling weed or whatever. Right Bill?
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Old 08-12-2011, 12:52 PM #2
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1) I'd say it should be a state matter, since the regulation of drugs is not specifically covered in the federal constitution. However, I can easily see the federal senate crashing-through emergency legislation to make it a federal matter.

2) Since the choice of which drugs are or are not "safe" is disputable, then the legislature should create a committee whose job it is to determine which drugs are viable for regulated legalization, and which are not. And of course, this list can be periodically updated to account for new types of drugs that might crop up in the future.

3) The drugs could be sold by any private store or shop owner, and regulated much in the same way that tobacco and alcohol are regulated. The age to purchase drugs could be 18, 21, or whatever the state deems appropriate.

4) I agree with your statement in number 4. But a drug addic'ts need for his next fix is no different than an alcoholic's need for his next shot of bourbon... or a smoker's need for his next cigarette. It's a social issue that would need to be treated the same way.
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Old 08-12-2011, 12:59 PM #3
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... My stance on drugs.

Marijuana shouldn't be a title 1 drug. Maybe title two but closer to title 3. There are obvious medical uses, and there are virtually no side effects.

Meth should continued to be viewed as a title 1 drug and those manufacturing it should be judged to the fullest. The users should be pushed for rehab prior to jail.

Prescription abuse is a larger problem than marijuana use. The feds should crack down on doctors than put out unneeded prescriptions and prosecute those who sell them illegally.
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Old 08-13-2011, 09:41 AM #4
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2) Since the choice of which drugs are or are not "safe" is disputable, then the legislature should create a committee whose job it is to determine which drugs are viable for regulated legalization, and which are not. And of course, this list can be periodically updated to account for new types of drugs that might crop up in the future.
That would be fine. There are people who might like like how the government does things, and I imagine this would be the area where the most dispute would be found.

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4) I agree with your statement in number 4. But a drug addic'ts need for his next fix is no different than an alcoholic's need for his next shot of bourbon... or a smoker's need for his next cigarette. It's a social issue that would need to be treated the same way.
Yeah. To me, the difference between an alcoholic and a drug addict scoring his fix is that drug addicts tend to be more likely to commit extreme behavior in order to get their drugs. Countless people have lost everything they own to drugs, and will rob people for cash it items to sell. While alcohol has problems as well, younger children tend to fall into the trap for drugs at a much younger age, and we chance seeing many youth corrupted as people attempt to peddle their wares.

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... My stance on drugs.

Marijuana shouldn't be a title 1 drug. Maybe title two but closer to title 3. There are obvious medical uses, and there are virtually no side effects.

Meth should continued to be viewed as a title 1 drug and those manufacturing it should be judged to the fullest. The users should be pushed for rehab prior to jail.
Yeah I really don't care about weed that much, but you should have to be 21 or so to use it, high school kids shouldn't be toking up - it would severely hamper test scores. Additionally, younger kids that age are prone to smoking up a lot, becoming a useless burnout, and failing at life - at least that's how the argument goes.

Meth however, is much worse. That drug is actually growing up here in New England and the effects are horrendous. Lot of idiot teenagers with meth mouth, just spend their days driving around town wasting gas with no real purpose. Most are unemployed, relying on selling their products for cash and random sidework they can generate. It's pretty deplorable and unfortunate that kids get caught up and addicted to nonsense like this, but this is what happens when the threat of things is underestimated.
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Old 08-13-2011, 11:16 AM #5
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Our valedictorian in high school smoked every day of high school. He said it mellowed him down and let him focus. He got a full ride to syracuse for architecture. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Meth is terrible. The people we see in the ER who are users is awful.
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Old 08-13-2011, 02:36 PM #6
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Marijuana shouldn't be an issue. It appears that most people will agree with this. Unfortunately, it costs taxpayers to keep dealers and potheads off the streets. This is an unnecessary expense. Sure, there should be an age requirement (I believe 19 would be perfect. Many people will experiment in college no matter what the laws are. This would be the age that most people are no longer in high school. Putting the age requirement at 21 simply begs for underage pot smoking).

As a former drug user (of nearly all types, with the exception of heroin), I do agree that it would be best to try and combat the harder drugs and, of course, lean harder on doctors found guilty of haphazardly prescribing "legal" drugs. Instead of going after the user (instead, requiring they are treated as sick and giving them treatment, rather than criminal and wasting taxpayer dollars), make an effort to stop the sale of harder drugs. Go after the doctors. Take their licenses. Go after the dealers/makers (ship them off to Pakistan instead of clogging up our prisons). Make their efforts come with consequences other than three hots and a cot courtesy of Joe Plumber and his taxpayin' buddies.

Also, it should be noted that licking the backs of toads and smoking banana peals need much tougher penalties. Holding your breath until you pass out should be harshly punished, as well.
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Old 08-13-2011, 02:42 PM #7
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Also, it should be noted that licking the backs of toads and smoking banana peals need much tougher penalties. Holding your breath until you pass out should be harshly punished, as well.
Which one of these things is highly addictive and poses significant societal risks?
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Old 08-13-2011, 03:15 PM #8
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Which one are you most interested in trying?
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Old 08-13-2011, 03:27 PM #9
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The problem that I have is that I don't see how allowing more accessibility to, even a drug like marijuana, benefits us as a nation. With all the problems that we have with our schools, rampaging street thugs, lackluster economy, and lazy workforce, what possible societal benefit could there be from it? I see it as potentially being a huge flop, with all kinds of unintended consequences.

I'd like to see us pull ourselves together and act more disciplined and conscientious, not as some self-indulged people looking for another means of escaping the real world vis-a-vis an artificial high. I certainly don't think it will add to our standing on the world stage and believe that it will be just one more disincentive for foreign and domestic businesses to invest in America. Who would want to build a business in a location where undisciplined citizens have ready access to even soft drugs like marijuana? We need to start focusing on self-improvement, not self-destruction.
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Old 08-13-2011, 03:45 PM #10
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The problem that I have is that I don't see how allowing more accessibility to, even a drug like marijuana, benefits us as a nation. With all the problems that we have with our schools, rampaging street thugs, lackluster economy, and lazy workforce, what possible societal benefit could there be from it? I see it as potentially being a huge flop, with all kinds of unintended consequences.

I'd like to see us pull ourselves together and act more disciplined and conscientious, not as some self-indulged people looking for another means of escaping the real world vis-a-vis an artificial high. I certainly don't think it will add to our standing on the world stage and believe that it will be just one more disincentive for foreign and domestic businesses to invest in America. Who would want to build a business in a location where undisciplined citizens have ready access to even soft drugs like marijuana? We need to start focusing on self-improvement, not self-destruction.
... Because marijuana has no long term medical side effects, has never caused a death, has never had a medical study that proves it lowers inhibitions. That on top of the fact that it's being illegal causes a black market welcoming crime involvement. Since it's prohibition, we haven't been able to tax it yet we have to pay for the tens of thousands who are incarserated yearly because of it and the hundreds of thousands who are tried in our court system over it's possession, use, and sale.

It's a waste of money no matter what terms you put it in.
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Old 08-13-2011, 04:55 PM #11
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Some questions I would begin this by raising:

1 - Some of legalities of such a war could be questioned. Is this a federal argument, or a state one? Should states be allowed to set their own drug laws?
Why not communities? If anyone accepts that states should set the laws, the logical reduction leads down to individual decision.

I don't think a war on consumer goods makes sense. Does it to anyone else?

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2- Which drugs? There are certain people who say "drugs aren't bad" and they speak of marijuana. Then there are other who say "drugs are not bad' and they mean all drugs. That's a MAJOR difference, so specifics on which drugs could be legal is still a huge question.
Cannabis can lead to psychological addiction (not comparable to truly addictive substances, but it's still there) and have mild adverse effects depending on the user. It is still healthier than caffeine, alcohol, medically prescribed stimulants, medically prescribed anti-psychotics, antidepressants, etc.

Opiate-based drugs have no medical record of producing adverse physical effects. Bad needle practices (totally created by criminalization), smoking pills/substances that shouldn't be smoked, bad drug consumption practices lead to adverse physical effects. The psychological effects of consistent opiate consumption can be terrible, but that doesn't make the cost of use totally unbearable. Thousands of Americans are on pain management legitimately, thousands aren't on it and should be, and thousands are abusing it. There is also new medical research on an opioid-receptor-based chronic depression, which has led to new insights regarding why 50-80% of opiate addicts (varying %'s, no one knows for sure) suffer from chronic depression. Germany, Switzerland, Denmark, and other countries have created medical centers which administer heroin in a medically safe environment and use and use-related disease/adverse physical effects have gone down.

Stimulants are everywhere. Coffee is a drug that is similar to meth. One is much more dangerous. Chronic stimulant/amphetamine abuse is a terrible, terrible thing. It prevents one from sleeping proper hours (which leads to sleep-deprived psychosis) and it creates what is known as "meth psychosis", which is similar to the former disorder. I personally can't stand amphetamines/stimulants. I already suffer from sleep disorders, no need to reinforce it. Using drugs like meth improperly (the key word) can lead to meth mouth, bad needle practices, etc. produces the adverse physical effects that make drug use seem so bad.

Then, we have psychedelics. Harmless, loved by college hipsters, can be a great tool for the right mind and an overrated one for an immature one.


I believe all drugs should be legalized on a government policy level. Production should be taxed, and minor regulations would be enforced on a community level.

Tuff, can you post up your knowledge on different drugs/their effects/what kinds of use is bad so I know where you're coming from?

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3 - Who would sell these drugs? How would they be obtained - convenience stores?
The market would determine this. Pharmacies, headshops, collectives, and online shops. Drugs that are currently illegal are sold ONLINE RIGHT NOW, so legalization will only add more legitimization. Drugs that are legally prescribed cause more civil-based problems than anything illegal, ignoring the effects cartels (government-sponsored producers).

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4 - Drugs inhibit people from rational thinking, and their need for a fix should not outweigh the need of the safety of the children in this country who can be convinced drugs are good by per pressure. Agree or let the kids fend for themselves because some people feel the "right" to put whatever they want in their body overrules the desire by others to maintain the dignity of the country?
Should we make all bad decisions illegal, Tuff? That's what this line of thinking suggests.

For one, you have to say which drugs inhibit rational thinking. In question two, you said drugs are very different and we need to discuss the specifics, but now, in question 4, you act like they're all the same and that all addictions are the same.

So, I ask you, should we criminalize all bad decisions that damage the international image of our country?

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Most of these illegal drugs aren't even that enjoyable. I don't see the appeal honestly. I will say
That's because you haven't used them. IV'd heroin would make you feel better than anything else possibly could in this world. MDMA would produce absolute euphoria. Psychedelics could change your mind for the positive. Fact is, drugs make people feel good. That is how they work. Just because you don't want to use them (and I wholeheartedly support that) doesn't mean they aren't enjoyable. This is a physical phenomena, not a subjective interpretation.

(I have never used a stimulant recreationally, never IV'd heroin, never used MDMA, and have only eaten psychedelic mushrooms).
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- we could at least get rid of all the illegal aliens accused of selling or doing drugs by shipping them back to Mexico and Central/South America, and free up some much needed space and tax money by continuing to fund illegal aliens in our prison system for any crime at all.
Um, why get rid of people simply "accused" of doing something? Shouldn't we get rid of people proven guilty? Isn't that the American way? If it is proven that someone is an illegal and in connection with gangs/cartels, ship em off. I don't care about criminals.

It's easy to see where you make elementary mistakes. Getting rid of the accused, not the guilty, specifying which drugs should be legal, yet not specifying which can be dangerous.

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I'm sure even the drug loving crowd would support deporting all those illegals accused of selling weed or whatever. Right Bill?
Quit strawmanning. And no. Just because an illegal sold a little weed doesn't mean he can't be useful here. If he is working for a cartel/gang, ship the ****er out of here.
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Old 08-13-2011, 05:53 PM #12
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... Because marijuana has no long term medical side effects, has never caused a death, has never had a medical study that proves it lowers inhibitions. That on top of the fact that it's being illegal causes a black market welcoming crime involvement. Since it's prohibition, we haven't been able to tax it yet we have to pay for the tens of thousands who are incarserated yearly because of it and the hundreds of thousands who are tried in our court system over it's possession, use, and sale.

It's a waste of money no matter what terms you put it in.
No long term effects? Have you not read that pot smoke contains waaaaaaaay more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than tobacco? Smoke it in a blunt and you get a double shot of poison. Smoking pot raises your blood pressure and heart rate 25%. Marijuana causes your balls to shrink and to produce less testosterone. Let's not forget it turns you into a ******* and over time will give you problems with dependent state learning. Marijuana intoxication causes distorted perceptions, impaired coordination, difficulty with thinking and problem solving. In chronic users, marijuana's adverse impact on learning and memory can last for days or weeks after the acute effects of the drug wear off. As a result, someone who smokes marijuana every day may be functioning at a suboptimal intellectual level all of the time.

Yeah pot is harmless. GL with your long term anxiety.

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Old 08-13-2011, 06:06 PM #13
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I'd like to see us pull ourselves together and act more disciplined and conscientious, not as some self-indulged people looking for another means of escaping the real world vis-a-vis an artificial high..
I agree. Taking it a step further if all the self indulgent escapists off themselves on heroin meth and cocaine, the country will be left with disciplined and conscientious people.
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Old 08-13-2011, 06:10 PM #14
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With all the problems that we have with our schools,
I don't think even legalization activists advocate allowing children to smoke pot.

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rampaging street thugs
Are you really implying that marijuana will exacerbate a problem with rampaging street thugs?

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lackluster economy
Not quite sure how a freshly minted legal industry serving millions of consumers an could hurt the economy.

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and lazy workforce
Do you mean the US workforce which was recently called the world's most productive, and works some of the longest hours in the industrialized world?

I'm left scratching my head about a worldview that is so ... let's just say unsupported by factuality.
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Old 08-13-2011, 06:45 PM #15
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... Because marijuana has no long term medical side effects, has never caused a death, has never had a medical study that proves it lowers inhibitions. That on top of the fact that it's being illegal causes a black market welcoming crime involvement. Since it's prohibition, we haven't been able to tax it yet we have to pay for the tens of thousands who are incarserated yearly because of it and the hundreds of thousands who are tried in our court system over it's possession, use, and sale.

It's a waste of money no matter what terms you put it in.
Based on your ringing endorsement, you'd think weed was some kind of innocuous wonder drug. You sound like a cigarette company ad man telling us all how wonderful and empowering smoking is.

If marijuana is such benign drug, then maybe we should allow it in the workplace? Why shouldn't Chrysler autoworkers be allowed to have a couple of joints on their lunch break? If it's good enough for our civilians, how about our soldiers? I'm curious, how would you feel, if you knew that the president of our country smokes 2-3 times a day with the National Security Council?

I think the issue just points to the more narcissitic, self-indulgent, side of humans. To suggest that it would be, on the whole, a societal good, is merely trying to dress up a turd to look like your avatar.
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Old 08-13-2011, 06:48 PM #16
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I don't think even legalization activists advocate allowing children to smoke pot. Are you really implying that marijuana will exacerbate a problem with rampaging street thugs? Not quite sure how a freshly minted legal industry serving millions of consumers an could hurt the economy.

Do you mean the US workforce which was recently called the world's most productive, and works some of the longest hours in the industrialized world?

I'm left scratching my head about a worldview that is so ... let's just say unsupported by factuality.
My premise is simply that legalization would do more harm than good. I was just generalizing some of the societal problems we have, not necessarily tying legalization to those specific problems. Are you willing to make the counter argument - that, in consideration of all of our social and economic problems, legalization would be a net benefit to society?
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Old 08-13-2011, 07:06 PM #17
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Are you willing to make the counter argument - that, in consideration of all of our social and economic problems, legalization would be a net benefit to society?
I'm left scratching my head, wondering why a person who's so outspoken on his stances of personal responsibility and inherent skepticism of government intervention now makes an argument for strict government regulation of a consumable due to a supposed lack of a "net benefit to society."

If advocacy of personal responsibility is the ideal we should strive for, doesn't it stand to reason that we should allow people to do as they please lest we find that an activity produces a net detriment? Isn't assuming that a consumable should be banned unless it produces a "net benefit to society" the absolute antithesis to personal responsibility, because it replaces any sort of decision-making capacity of the individual with governmental paternalism?
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Old 08-13-2011, 07:40 PM #18
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My premise is simply that legalization would do more harm than good. I was just generalizing some of the societal problems we have, not necessarily tying legalization to those specific problems. Are you willing to make the counter argument - that, in consideration of all of our social and economic problems, legalization would be a net benefit to society?
There would absolutely be a net benefit over the baseline of prohibition. Cannabis has demonstrable benefits or is a better alternative in all kinds of uses: recreational drug, therapeutic drug, food, textile, building material, biomass, paper fiber, the list goes on and on.

On the other side of the ledger, we spend HUGE amounts of money enforcing prohibition and imprisoning those involved in its trade. And having a high incarceration rate for drug offenses is one of America's preeminent social and economic problems.

The case is frankly so strongly in favor of legalization that only a concerted effort by corporate interests could possibly be keeping alive the prejudices that allow prohibition to continue.
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Old 08-13-2011, 08:20 PM #19
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I'm going to leave that here, please do not cross the line- you all already know the consequences.
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Old 08-13-2011, 08:22 PM #20
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If marijuana is such benign drug, then maybe we should allow it in the workplace? Why shouldn't Chrysler autoworkers be allowed to have a couple of joints on their lunch break? If it's good enough for our civilians, how about our soldiers? I'm curious, how would you feel, if you knew that the president of our country smokes 2-3 times a day with the National Security Council?
Wouldn't be too different than if they were drinking alcohol, but you don't hear cries for that to be criminalized do you?
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Old 08-13-2011, 08:54 PM #21
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Cannabis can lead to psychological addiction (not comparable to truly addictive substances, but it's still there) and have mild adverse effects depending on the user. It is still healthier than caffeine, alcohol, medically prescribed stimulants, medically prescribed anti-psychotics, antidepressants, etc.
As an ex-smoker of cannibis (smoked almost daily for 23 years. quit 3 months ago, for the hell of it- just to test how easy it would be to say goodbye to mary jane. have no desire to smoke again), I can truly say that the "psychological addiction" is minor, when you tell yourself you're done. I do believe I'm proof that anyone can quit if they want to, but I'm not everyone (although, some conspiracy theorists would argue that I am).

I do not recommend anyone who has gotten drunk daily for 23 years to simply quit without doctor's supervision. It will kill you.

Even with those differences, the more dangerous chemical is perfectly legal.

This only makes sense to complete idiots who have no idea what they're really talking about.

Now, who is it that thinks pot smokers should be locked up? Who is it that thinks marijuana laws make perfect sense?

Bottom line- The government can't control something that grows easily, like a- weed. Sure, people can say, "Well gahdamn! Wha don't they jes' tax the stuff? Th' gubment could make- bajillions!" -bullsh!t. The're not going to make money off it. Period. Of course, the argument of "whut about its muddicinul prop'ties?" -sure, it has medicinal properties. That's been established. A number of states have legalized it. Oddly, the people using this argument aren't sick.

If the government can't make a buck, they won't legalize it. Seriously- is every pot smoker going to promise to pay taxes on it? ROFL! Is every pot smoker going to buy it from a dispensary/cafe'/drug store? LOL!

If I tell you how to create a hydroponic system for under 50 dollars, why the hell would you bother with taxes or proper buying procedure?


If it's going to be legal, or even decriminalized, it's because people want to get high- just like people want to get drunk. Any other reason is utter bullsh!t.

I do believe it should be legalized.

Last edited by PVversion666 : 08-13-2011 at 09:03 PM.
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