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Old 08-03-2011, 02:10 PM #1
Tuff
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Question Hmm, lower defense spending, increase cyber defense spending? China spies on US/UN

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/...s-blame-china/

"The world's most extensive case of cyber-espionage, including attacks on U.S. government and U.N. computers, was revealed Wednesday by online security firm McAfee, and analysts are speculating that China is behind the attacks.

The spying was dubbed "Operation Shady RAT," or "remote access tool" by McAfee -- and it led to a massive loss of information that poses a huge economic threat, wrote vice president of threat research Dmitri Alperovitch.

"What is happening to all this data -- by now reaching petabytes as a whole -- is still largely an open question," Alperovitch wrote on a blog detailing the threat. "However, if even a fraction of it is used to build better competing products or beat a competitor at a key negotiation (due to having stolen the other team’s playbook), the loss represents a massive economic threat."

Analysts told The Washington Post that the finger of blame for the infiltration of the 72 networks -- 49 of them in the U.S. -- points firmly in the direction of China."


Countries who have reported being cyberattacked by China

The hackers sought out sensitive data on U.S. military systems and satellite communications, with the snooping apparently going on for several years.

Companies in construction, steel, energy, solar power, technology, accounting and media were targeted.

The intrusion into the U.N. computer system in Geneva in 2008 went unnoticed for nearly two years, while the hackers quietly combed through files of secret data, according to McAfee. The UN said it was aware of the report, and had started an investigation to ascertain if there was an intrusion. Many of the attacks targeted organizations linked to Taiwan and the IOC in the months leading up to the 2008 Beijing games, which pointed analysts toward China.

--------------------

OK so China is spying on the United States. That's not a surprise. Spying is old, sure, I know someone wants to chime in with that. However, spying int the old days took manpower and was a bit harder done that way. Today, we have means of doing mass sweeps of spying to acquire information on numerous topics much more quickly via cyberattacks and computer spying.

I think most people here would agree that cyber warfare is not going away anytime soon. What I ponder, is will these attacks leads to a country trying to shut down the entire electrical grid or the computers controlling their nuclear weapons or their government computers (some of these are less practical, now, in 2011 - don't rule them out forever) and starting a major war by that type of attack?

Be curious to hear Captain 2.0's take if he's reading the forum.

Could this lead to a major war, or will this be something of the norm and limited to trying to steal information and not do anything malicious to one another's actual infrastructure computer networks?

Our $15 billion carriers really cannot do much against this type of attack, eh? Sidenote - little surprised Canada has been attacked more than Japan based on that picture.
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Old 08-03-2011, 05:42 PM #2
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Funny, I started reading the military strategy paper 'unrestricted warfare' a few nights ago and now this pops up. The Chinese wrote that paper, and the gist of it is that future wars will be fought with weapons like cyber attacks, information manipulation and internal subterfuge to destroy an enemy country internally without the use of bombs or conventional weapons.

I think that cyber attacks and the like are the weapons of the future, and that our government needs to invest heavily in defense against them. A single cyber attack could do more damage to the US power grid than an all out assault from any military currently in existence on earth.
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:34 PM #3
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Is it really China or are the hackers Chinese?
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:43 PM #4
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Refer to my counsel in the cutting thread.
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Old 08-03-2011, 11:40 PM #5
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Is it really China or are the hackers Chinese?


Seriously?
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Old 08-04-2011, 01:13 AM #6
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Yes, seriously. Some of the best hackers in the world are likely chinese. Most hackers have a strong anti-government streak. Jus' sayin'.
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Old 08-04-2011, 02:14 AM #7
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And to think, it can be just a devastating as a nuclear warhead, with half the cost, and 0 radiation fallout. And the problem is, now matter how much money you dump into defense, it can never be truly preventable.
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Old 08-04-2011, 02:22 AM #8
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Our $15 billion carriers really cannot do much against this type of attack, eh?
Has nothing to do with carriers, you're just being a defense noob. It's another area that needs to be defended, not the only one. Bringing up the price like that and insinuating that carriers are a waste of money is a thigh slapper, bud.
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:57 AM #9
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Carriers are so ****ing win it's not even funny. There is a reason other countries are envious of them, to be able to place 36 F-18 super hornets off the coast of any country at any time is pretty sweet.

Back on topic: Spend more on offensive hacking, screw defensive, let china know how it feels, let's get those springroll recipes guys.
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Old 08-04-2011, 01:04 PM #10
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Yes, seriously. Some of the best hackers in the world are likely chinese. Most hackers have a strong anti-government streak. Jus' sayin'.
I would say it's rather unlikely the Chinese government has no ties to said hypothetical people. I think it is deliberate, and I think everyone around the world should prepare for such attacks.

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Has nothing to do with carriers, you're just being a defense noob. It's another area that needs to be defended, not the only one. Bringing up the price like that and insinuating that carriers are a waste of money is a thigh slapper, bud.
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Carriers are so ****ing win it's not even funny. There is a reason other countries are envious of them, to be able to place 36 F-18 super hornets off the coast of any country at any time is pretty sweet.

Back on topic: Spend more on offensive hacking, screw defensive, let china know how it feels, let's get those springroll recipes guys.
I asked you in a previous thread if you could justify the cost of carriers. They're cool, but we need more of them even still? The previous poster seems to be willing to sacrifice the country to dump money into them regardless how much they cost, so perhaps you could explain why we still need more of them.

I'd agree that we should have some offensive hacking capabilities (a good offense can make a good defense, yada) and as others have said - defensive measure are harder to plan for in cyber war than in real war. Things evolve much too quickly. I think defensive measures for this would be something like a entirely separate network for certain things, like the electrical grid, not tied to the standard internet, thus limiting access.
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Old 08-04-2011, 01:26 PM #11
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Originally Posted by EPAPressure View Post
Carriers are so ****ing win it's not even funny. There is a reason other countries are envious of them, to be able to place 36 F-18 super hornets off the coast of any country at any time is pretty sweet.

Back on topic: Spend more on offensive hacking, screw defensive, let china know how it feels, let's get those springroll recipes guys.
China isn't too concerned about them. In case you forgot about this little gem of a misslile:

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Old 08-04-2011, 02:16 PM #12
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That doesn't automatically make carriers useless, dude.
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Old 08-04-2011, 02:44 PM #13
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Never mind all the missile countermeasures employed on the carriers...
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Old 08-04-2011, 03:00 PM #14
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Is it really China or are the hackers Chinese?
If I remember correctly, China has the highest amount of infected zombie computers in the world. There is a chance that these attacks could have even originated from inside the US, it is almost imposible to tell. It's like getting the license plate of a car that a criminal is driving. You can trace the origins of that car but that has nothing to do with the person committing the acts as it could be stolen.
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Old 08-04-2011, 03:16 PM #15
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China isn't too concerned about them. In case you forgot about this little gem of a misslile:

Oh nice some reverese engineered russian technology that isn't even up to par with the original. Nice, good thing carriers don't have a ring of ships with countermeasures, nevermind the ones on board the said carrier.
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Old 08-04-2011, 06:01 PM #16
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Because the DoD has ZERO measures for cyber security already planned in their budget right?
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Old 08-04-2011, 06:46 PM #17
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Carriers are so ****ing win it's not even funny. There is a reason other countries are envious of them, to be able to place 36 F-18 super hornets off the coast of any country at any time is pretty sweet.

this guy knows

cyberwar is where **** is gonig to go down. anyone ever hear about stuxnet? pretty sure israel hacked into either iran or syrias nuclear weapons program, and if you know how the centrifuge works to enrich uranium, they made the machine spin at weird speeds and intervals which completely ruins all of the uranium they were trying to enrich. pretty bad explanation of it but cyberwar=win
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:27 PM #18
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They didn't hack anything. They planted a USB drive and got it in that way.
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:43 PM #19
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China isn't too concerned about them. In case you forgot about this little gem of a misslile:

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Old 08-04-2011, 09:00 PM #20
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You know the instant a threat is directed toward a super carrier, a forcefield will be activated and an array of rail guns will destroy the missile.
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Old 08-04-2011, 09:50 PM #21
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You know the instant a threat is directed toward a super carrier, a forcefield will be activated and an array of rail guns will destroy the missile.
Will the manner of that forcefield work on that missile is the big question. I also question the practicality of carriers in the near future as the face of warfare changes. I hope they remain relevant, but cyber and space warfare could replace any type of naval battles, limiting the effectiveness of a carrier. Also, who are they attacking exactly? If it's not China, then I don't know who else could be enough of a threat that our current ten carriers could handle. Do you?

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cyberwar is where **** is going to go down. anyone ever hear about stuxnet? pretty sure israel hacked into either iran or syrias nuclear weapons program, and if you know how the centrifuge works to enrich uranium, they made the machine spin at weird speeds and intervals which completely ruins all of the uranium they were trying to enrich. pretty bad explanation of it but cyberwar=win
That was Iran they hacked into, and it was likely Israel, yeah. Planting a USB drive is not always an option, so other cyber warfare will be different.

My take is Cyber Warfare is just barely starting to take off. I think Stuxnet was a wakeup call for some nations, and while nobody has launched a major offensive with cyber warfare yet, I can see a major country trying it on someone in the near future.

When Russia invaded Georgia a few years back, they were hacking the entire country six ways to Sunday

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...cyber-war.html

"Several Georgian state computer servers have been under external control since shortly before Russia's armed intervention into the state commenced on Friday, leaving its online presence in dissaray.

While the official website of Mikheil Saakashvili, the Georgian President, has become available again, the central government site, as well as the homepages for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Ministry of Defence , remain down. Some commercial websites have also been hijacked.

The Georgian Government said that the disruption was caused by attacks carried out by Russia as part of the ongoing conflict between the two states over the Georgian province of South Ossetia.

In a statement released via a replacement website built on Google's blog-hosting service, the Georgian Ministry of Foreign Affairs said: "A cyber warfare campaign by Russia is seriously disrupting many Georgian websites, including that of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs." "


It will only get worse. The dangerous part is I think because actual bloodshed does not occur, that countries on the attack will feel embolden to do significant damage to whomever they assault. That could lead to some massive failures of structures in a given country, which in turn, could lead to a major offensive involving the armed forces. I see a lot of potential for **** spiraling out of control via cyberwarfare.
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