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Old 11-05-2012, 04:20 PM #904
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Gonna see if I can take a class on CAD/Fluid models for the next semester
Might help us out in terms of planning/actually showing we're going in the right direction.

And it makes me happy too! I just have to sell it -_-'
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:23 PM #905
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Originally Posted by Deathwish_DW View Post
Gonna see if I can take a class on CAD/Fluid models for the next semester
Might help us out in terms of planning/actually showing we're going in the right direction.

And it makes me happy too! I just have to sell it -_-'
Yay!!!!! Now we get to wait "another" whole semester...yay!!!!!
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:34 PM #906
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Yay!!!!! Now we get to wait "another" whole semester...yay!!!!!
Not really.
Jonathan is a beast. He's also the one designing everything. I have input and points, sure, but at the point I am currently at, I cannot do what Jonathan is capable of. Hence me going to school for it.

The whole point of me taking the classes is because it's beneficial to my future plans, but I also am counting on using it to further our projects by analyzing what actually happens to the flow of the air inside of the marker. This will not only be interesting to see, but I can only imagine how helpful it will be in tweaking designs, noticing anything we can optimize on, etc.
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Old 11-07-2012, 08:58 PM #907
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You think with your bolt and my 50/45 tank ill get a case on one fill?
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:36 PM #908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geckx7 View Post
You think with your bolt and my 50/45 tank ill get a case on one fill?
dude not even a g6r can get a full case off of a 50/4500 tank. there is absolutely no way in hell a dump valve gun like a g4 is going to get those kinds of numbers
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Old 11-07-2012, 10:13 PM #909
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigger Finger View Post
dude not even a g6r can get a full case off of a 50/4500 tank. there is absolutely no way in hell a dump valve gun like a g4 is going to get those kinds of numbers
WHy not? if it going to put the techt he to shame its possible.
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Old 11-07-2012, 11:02 PM #910
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Originally Posted by geckx7 View Post
WHy not? if it going to put the techt he to shame its possible.
its just not physically possible..... it can still put the he bolt to shame by shooting smoother and a lot quieter.
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:10 AM #911
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Taking into account a 50/45 shooting a 3 gram paintball at 285 fps, the theoretical max efficiency of a gun would be just under 2246 shots, so it is physically possible, however unlikely.
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:20 AM #912
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Originally Posted by AndrewTheWookie View Post
Taking into account a 50/45 shooting a 3 gram paintball at 285 fps, the theoretical max efficiency of a gun would be just under 2246 shots, so it is physically possible, however unlikely.
- didn't show your work....... -10 points .
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:53 PM #913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigger Finger View Post
dude not even a g6r can get a full case off of a 50/4500 tank. there is absolutely no way in hell a dump valve gun like a g4 is going to get those kinds of numbers
Huh?

I've gotten a case off of mine before I was an UTTER IDIOT and sold my G6R THAT ALWAYS WORKED AND SHOT LASERS.




In other news:

Jonathan has been at a conference for work the entire week. :|
Yes, we're lagging behind out estimates (again). First it was the reamer, now this + Sandy.

Planning on finally verifying the prints this weekend. *crosses fingers*
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:27 PM #914
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathwish_DW View Post
Huh?

I've gotten a case off of mine before I was an UTTER IDIOT and sold my G6R THAT ALWAYS WORKED AND SHOT LASERS.




In other news:

Jonathan has been at a conference for work the entire week. :|
Yes, we're lagging behind out estimates (again). First it was the reamer, now this + Sandy.

Planning on finally verifying the prints this weekend. *crosses fingers*
ive never seen anyone get a case on a full 50/45 fill with a g6r. even when i had to borrow a buddies 50 ci tank i got roughly 1700ish shots out of a full fill. ive even sweet spotted my regs and everything before i played that day.

and i know how you feel. i traded away my old g6r for a clone. i instantly regretted that decision and went through hell to trade for another g6r. now that i got it back i will never let it leave my hands again. well i shouldnt say never, that depends on if bob long decides to release a true spool valve marker. then i would really have to think long and hard about that one.
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:36 PM #915
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewTheWookie View Post
Taking into account a 50/45 shooting a 3 gram paintball at 285 fps, the theoretical max efficiency of a gun would be just under 2246 shots, so it is physically possible, however unlikely.
50x4500= 225000

225000/140(operating pressure with techt he bolt)= 1600 shots.

this bolt would need to operate at about 110 psi @ 285 fps to shoot about a case on a full tank. the operating pressures would be as low as a clone and they only get 1700 shots on a 68/4500 tank. so i still dont see that it would be possible to shoot a case on a 50ci tank.
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:40 PM #916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewTheWookie View Post
Taking into account a 50/45 shooting a 3 gram paintball at 285 fps, the theoretical max efficiency of a gun would be just under 2246 shots, so it is physically possible, however unlikely.
Smart kid. I had a feeling it was possible, likely or not.
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Old 11-08-2012, 04:38 PM #917
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CA_Tectonics View Post
- didn't show your work....... -10 points .
I wish. My profs probably would have just not given any credit at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigger Finger View Post
50x4500= 225000

225000/140(operating pressure with techt he bolt)= 1600 shots.

this bolt would need to operate at about 110 psi @ 285 fps to shoot about a case on a full tank. the operating pressures would be as low as a clone and they only get 1700 shots on a 68/4500 tank. so i still dont see that it would be possible to shoot a case on a 50ci tank.
I was speaking hypothetically, since you said it was physically impossible to get a case or more.

To calculate the ammount of shots per tank, we must find the energy required to move a paintball from 0fps to our final 285fps using the kinetic energy equation of 1/2mv^2, where the velocity is in m/s and mass is in kilograms. That gives us 1/2(.003 kg)(86.87 m/s)^2 = 11.32 joules required per paintball.

To find the energy stored in the tank, it's the simple E = pV, where pressure is in pascals and volume is in cubic meters. That gives us (31026407.8 Pa)(.0008194 m^3) = 25423 joules. That, divided by the energy needed for a paintball gives us the theoretical number of full velocity shots that tank is capable of. 25423/11.32 = 2245.8, so you'd get 2245 full shots in an ideal situation.
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:12 PM #918
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewTheWookie
I wish. My profs probably would have just not given any credit at all.

I was speaking hypothetically, since you said it was physically impossible to get a case or more.

To calculate the ammount of shots per tank, we must find the energy required to move a paintball from 0fps to our final 285fps using the kinetic energy equation of 1/2mv^2, where the velocity is in m/s and mass is in kilograms. That gives us 1/2(.003 kg)(86.87 m/s)^2 = 11.32 joules required per paintball.

To find the energy stored in the tank, it's the simple E = pV, where pressure is in pascals and volume is in cubic meters. That gives us (31026407.8 Pa)(.0008194 m^3) = 25423 joules. That, divided by the energy needed for a paintball gives us the theoretical number of full velocity shots that tank is capable of. 25423/11.32 = 2245.8, so you'd get 2245 full shots in an ideal situation.
I do not see any calculations for energy lost for drag on the bolt factored in...

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Old 11-08-2012, 05:13 PM #919
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Originally Posted by AndrewTheWookie View Post
I wish. My profs probably would have just not given any credit at all.

I was speaking hypothetically, since you said it was physically impossible to get a case or more.

To calculate the ammount of shots per tank, we must find the energy required to move a paintball from 0fps to our final 285fps using the kinetic energy equation of 1/2mv^2, where the velocity is in m/s and mass is in kilograms. That gives us 1/2(.003 kg)(86.87 m/s)^2 = 11.32 joules required per paintball.

To find the energy stored in the tank, it's the simple E = pV, where pressure is in pascals and volume is in cubic meters. That gives us (31026407.8 Pa)(.0008194 m^3) = 25423 joules. That, divided by the energy needed for a paintball gives us the theoretical number of full velocity shots that tank is capable of. 25423/11.32 = 2245.8, so you'd get 2245 full shots in an ideal situation.
Nice . You get full credit for this one .
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:35 PM #920
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That escalated quickly. =p

I know it was an outrageous amount of paint.. Coulda sworn it was a case. :|
Either way, the G6R is awesome.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:21 PM #921
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewTheWookie View Post
I wish. My profs probably would have just not given any credit at all.

I was speaking hypothetically, since you said it was physically impossible to get a case or more.

To calculate the ammount of shots per tank, we must find the energy required to move a paintball from 0fps to our final 285fps using the kinetic energy equation of 1/2mv^2, where the velocity is in m/s and mass is in kilograms. That gives us 1/2(.003 kg)(86.87 m/s)^2 = 11.32 joules required per paintball.

To find the energy stored in the tank, it's the simple E = pV, where pressure is in pascals and volume is in cubic meters. That gives us (31026407.8 Pa)(.0008194 m^3) = 25423 joules. That, divided by the energy needed for a paintball gives us the theoretical number of full velocity shots that tank is capable of. 25423/11.32 = 2245.8, so you'd get 2245 full shots in an ideal situation.
ok so can you explain to me how the madev clone platform runs at 100 psi and can only get 1700 shots on a full 68/4500 fill? i mean it is the most efficient spool valve gun on the market for a reason. i just dont see a g3 that will be able to run that close operating pressure wise to a clone not to mention somehow getting more shots per fill than it. your theory is good but if you have a clone running at 100 psi and not even getting a case off of a full filled 68 ci tank then i dont think its possible for a g3 to get a full case on a 50 ci fill. not to mention the g series are dump valve markers so arent they even less efficient than true spoolys?
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:23 PM #922
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Quote:
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That escalated quickly. =p

I know it was an outrageous amount of paint.. Coulda sworn it was a case. :|
Either way, the G6R is awesome.
dont get me wrong you can shoot a **** ton of paint with a 50ci tank on a g6r. its not to far off from getting a case off of one. i think if you get that new premium bolt then you may definitely get closer if not more than a case on a 50.

and yes the g6r is awesome.
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:55 PM #923
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Originally Posted by Trigger Finger View Post
ok so can you explain to me how the madev clone platform runs at 100 psi and can only get 1700 shots on a full 68/4500 fill? i mean it is the most efficient spool valve gun on the market for a reason. i just dont see a g3 that will be able to run that close operating pressure wise to a clone not to mention somehow getting more shots per fill than it. your theory is good but if you have a clone running at 100 psi and not even getting a case off of a full filled 68 ci tank then i dont think its possible for a g3 to get a full case on a 50 ci fill. not to mention the g series are dump valve markers so arent they even less efficient than true spoolys?
Operating pressure is not really relevant to how much energy is in a tank. You need a specific amount of energy to move a paintball, so we know how many paintballs a full tank of air could move in perfect conditions (no drag, no loss of energy in moving the bolt, etc). Now, I'm not saying that the bolt will get those results, I'm just saying that given the end result, it is within the realm of physical possibility for a valve to be efficient enough to get a case off of a 50/45 shooting 3g paintballs at 285fps. Sure, the operating pressure will determine exactly how much air you will need so that you have the necessary energy, but that's not important when calculating the energy stored in a tank and the energy needed to move a paintball. Whether you do it with high pressure and a small volume of air, or a low pressure and larger volume, the energy requirements are the same.

I also don't think your math holds up. Let's use a Tippmann as an example. It uses an operating pressure of 850psi (pretty standard HP output), on a 68/45, by your math (68*4500/850) = 360 shots (unless there are other variables you didn't mention), and we all know that Tippmanns are nowhere near that bad.

But it's not just pressure and volume, there are other factors in the efficiency of a valve. How fast the valve opens, the flow characteristics of the air and valve, how far back the valve is from the paintball (ie: how much the air is allowed to expand and drop in pressure as it is expanding through the bolt to reach the paintball before that pressure actually starts to move the paintball), etc.

To cross-pollinate from the Shocker section, let's look at the Eigenbolt. That is realistically capable of letting a Shocker get over a case off a 68/45 (as compared to the less than stellar efficiency with stock bolts), not by changing the pressure, but by changing the characteristics of the valve, like when the valve opens, closing dwell, etc.

It also doesn't mean that dump valves are inherently inefficient, we just haven't had any dump valves that were designed for efficiency (yet ).
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:40 PM #924
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Originally Posted by AndrewTheWookie View Post
Operating pressure is not really relevant to how much energy is in a tank. You need a specific amount of energy to move a paintball, so we know how many paintballs a full tank of air could move in perfect conditions (no drag, no loss of energy in moving the bolt, etc). Now, I'm not saying that the bolt will get those results, I'm just saying that given the end result, it is within the realm of physical possibility for a valve to be efficient enough to get a case off of a 50/45 shooting 3g paintballs at 285fps. Sure, the operating pressure will determine exactly how much air you will need so that you have the necessary energy, but that's not important when calculating the energy stored in a tank and the energy needed to move a paintball. Whether you do it with high pressure and a small volume of air, or a low pressure and larger volume, the energy requirements are the same.

I also don't think your math holds up. Let's use a Tippmann as an example. It uses an operating pressure of 850psi (pretty standard HP output), on a 68/45, by your math (68*4500/850) = 360 shots (unless there are other variables you didn't mention), and we all know that Tippmanns are nowhere near that bad.

But it's not just pressure and volume, there are other factors in the efficiency of a valve. How fast the valve opens, the flow characteristics of the air and valve, how far back the valve is from the paintball (ie: how much the air is allowed to expand and drop in pressure as it is expanding through the bolt to reach the paintball before that pressure actually starts to move the paintball), etc.

To cross-pollinate from the Shocker section, let's look at the Eigenbolt. That is realistically capable of letting a Shocker get over a case off a 68/45 (as compared to the less than stellar efficiency with stock bolts), not by changing the pressure, but by changing the characteristics of the valve, like when the valve opens, closing dwell, etc.

It also doesn't mean that dump valves are inherently inefficient, we just haven't had any dump valves that were designed for efficiency (yet ).
More or less spot on.

Also, the comparison of chamber volume and pressure to determine efficiency is only relevant in systems that isolate the dump chamber during the shot and actually empty the entire chamber (or near). Even then, it is not a 100% correlation, just very close. A factor that is also usually forgotten is that you have to subtract operating pressure from the tank peak pressure before you multiply it by tank volume to determine a system's theoretical shot count (i.e. a system that operates at 200 psi would be 68 * 4300, not 68 * 4500).

And dump valve was just a marketing name from DP - it is still a spool valve.
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