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Old 08-03-2011, 11:33 AM #43
specopsdeath2
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Are you thinking of making a can with the kit? I do want minimal o-rings that would need to be lubed.

No spacers between the can and bolt (if there is a can)

Is it possible to make Detent slots?

I understand about the colors. Just a thought is all

Really...just a simple design that improves performance, and is easy to maintain is exactly what we want. The G3 platform is already easy, don't want to change that.
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Old 08-03-2011, 12:22 PM #44
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i have a g3 im currently fixing up lol.. i feel that with the orings on the g3 bolt it will be easier to design and will set the platform for the 4 bolt...

I do like a bolt to be flat faced, and venturied in some way. and i think the bolt should be as light as possible.

the new bolt should let you drop your pressure and be quieter. again like i said earlier im very excited to see anotehr bolt being made so that there is more options.

in addition to a new improved bolt I think a new back cap would be a wonderful thing. a back cap that maybe adds a little more volume to the dump chamber so that way you can lower ur operating pressure even more. for a quieter and more consistent shot
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Old 08-03-2011, 12:41 PM #45
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If you can replicate the techt engine but make the cap in other colors or maybe cf. . But if you really want to get some customers start making accents in cf and other colors for the g3-4 and spec-r..
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Old 08-03-2011, 01:12 PM #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathwish_DW View Post
I hate mornings, I need the try to copy a bolt that has already been done two years ago to look cool. Anyone want to make me feel better about myself?

Sorry to bother you..
Fixed
Btw talking crap to a potential customer isn't going to helps your sales, especially when its a customer that is as active as I am within my pb community.
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Old 08-03-2011, 01:28 PM #47
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I can say that I would not be interested in a new bolt for either my g3 or rev-i.

I like my TechT bolt engines on both. Were they may not be perfect, I am not willing to sink any more money into either marker for minimal performance gains.

I believe that the DP forums are very loyal forums for those who take care of us. TechT has always taken care of us and it would be hard to convince most of us to buy into your product. I think your time and money would be better spent on other markers.

If you had to make a bolt for either the G3 or G4 or Spec-R I would suggest going with the G4 only because most G3 and Spec-R owners already have the techT bolt engine. You may as well capitalize on the newer market since it is most likely to have the newest users willing to try your company out.
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Old 08-03-2011, 01:58 PM #48
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Wow. Being rude to people is certainly no way to make a name for yourself, especially before you even have a proven product.

All I was saying is that you're going to have a tough time being successful if there is a product that works incredibly. It also appears that you aren't concerned with making your product at least match Techt's. "Who says FPS is everything" isn't a good selling point.

I was just trying to give you some input, considering I own a g3 and would love to further it's performance even more. But the techt bolt engine blew my mind when I dropped it in, so I have a feeling it will be hard to beat.

I'll be more than happy to purchase your product with some proven results, perhaps even if it doesn't do quite as much as the Techt engine. I always like to support products made by the players
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Old 08-03-2011, 01:59 PM #49
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I applaud any attempts at furthering the DP community and bringing new options to the table. As others have stated though it is going to be hard to compete with a bolt system that already covers the playing field with an excellent track record.

I think looking into the FX or Rev-i would be ideal as the market is limited with parts for them; although, the FX has gotten some attention lately with NDZ creating a plethora of aftermarket parts.


I would agree that color options for the back cap and accent kits would be a big winner on the forum though.

However, it's not that difficult to tap the rear cap of the Techt Engine and mount a gauge onto it. Someone did that around here I can't remember who it was...
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Old 08-03-2011, 03:13 PM #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specopsdeath2 View Post
Are you thinking of making a can with the kit? I do want minimal o-rings that would need to be lubed.

No spacers between the can and bolt (if there is a can)

Is it possible to make Detent slots?

Really...just a simple design that improves performance, and is easy to maintain is exactly what we want. The G3 platform is already easy, don't want to change that.
First Two: Don't know. Orings, we agree.

Yes, but I'd rather make sure the bolt is "good" before we go shaving more stuff off.

That's the goal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by l1ryan1l View Post
i have a g3 im currently fixing up lol.. i feel that with the orings on the g3 bolt it will be easier to design and will set the platform for the 4 bolt...

I do like a bolt to be flat faced, and venturied in some way. and i think the bolt should be as light as possible.

the new bolt should let you drop your pressure and be quieter. again like i said earlier im very excited to see anotehr bolt being made so that there is more options.

in addition to a new improved bolt I think a new back cap would be a wonderful thing. a back cap that maybe adds a little more volume to the dump chamber so that way you can lower ur operating pressure even more. for a quieter and more consistent shot
G3 easier = You do have a point. The thing is, the G4/Specr market seems to be a bit more in demand, so it's a trade off.

Light as possible is not always the best as I have personally found out.
If it's light and awesome, cool. If not.. It's still awesome

We will not be going flat faced.

Everything else you said is

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitie22 View Post
If you can replicate the techt engine but make the cap in other colors or maybe cf. . But if you really want to get some customers start making accents in cf and other colors for the g3-4 and spec-r..
not looking to rip off tech t. CF is expensive. Other colors for smaller runs is expensive as well.

Accents.. That certainly an idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lunchbox5000 View Post
Fixed
Btw talking crap to a potential customer isn't going to helps your sales, especially when its a customer that is as active as I am within my pb community.
To be honest, I don't care. You said we were doing a get rich quick scheme and insinuating we are scamming. I really don't care how active you are. You insulted us and I retorted and apparently you realized you were in the wrong so you edited your post. Maybe you should take a step back and think about competition, free market ideals, and the fact that we're trying to do something cool instead of bashing it as "hey! this guys are going to scam us!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by phillysteve View Post
I believe that the DP forums are very loyal forums for those who take care of us. TechT has always taken care of us and it would be hard to convince most of us to buy into your product. I think your time and money would be better spent on other markers.

If you had to make a bolt for either the G3 or G4 or Spec-R I would suggest going with the G4 only because most G3 and Spec-R owners already have the techT bolt engine. You may as well capitalize on the newer market since it is most likely to have the newest users willing to try your company out.
I can see that. Performance talks and bull**** walks.
I use a TechT bolt in my markers when I am not running prototypes, etc. So I am not bashing the products, but I still believe that our approach may be able to squeeze out some better numbers. Time will tell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCM killa View Post
Wow. Being rude to people is certainly no way to make a name for yourself, especially before you even have a proven product.

All I was saying is that you're going to have a tough time being successful if there is a product that works incredibly. It also appears that you aren't concerned with making your product at least match Techt's. "Who says FPS is everything" isn't a good selling point.

I was just trying to give you some input, considering I own a g3 and would love to further it's performance even more. But the techt bolt engine blew my mind when I dropped it in, so I have a feeling it will be hard to beat.

I'll be more than happy to purchase your product with some proven results, perhaps even if it doesn't do quite as much as the Techt engine. I always like to support products made by the players
My apologies. If you noticed, I have been swamped with people who really love techt.. to the point where we are being called thieves.]

Truthfully, FPS ISN'T everything. I can throw a different barrel on my gun or a different bolt and increase the FPS.. then the consistency goes to ****. It's about balance.
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Old 08-03-2011, 03:45 PM #51
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well for a spoolvalve gun lighter is better. it takes less pressure to move the bolt so you can lower the pressure and u feel less vibration in the shot.

but you're right. too light could pose a problem. you want it to be as light as you can without compromising the structure and durability of the bolt.

what if you were to make this bolt similar to how the shocker bolts work? it would make the gun very quiet and very smooth. You will need somewhat of an extended backcap,
im not too sure how to work CAD just yet but i can try my luck in paint lol and PM u what exactly i mean!
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Old 08-03-2011, 05:01 PM #52
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As the person who will be designing this, I'd like to clarify a few things.

First off, this is a project in the works. I have several different configurations that I am contemplating going with, some of them are drastic refinements to familiar systems targeted at boosting efficiency and some are radically different from anything on the market or that has ever been on the market. None of them have been put into a DP marker as a test bed yet (yes, that means I have working prototypes of most of them in other systems). Deathwish has been trying very carefully to not make performance claims that are currently unknown or to paint us into a corner with promises - which some people have taken entirely the wrong way as admissions of an inferior product.

As I stated earlier, my design focus on most projects is in a different direction than Techt. They specialize in making low reciprocating mass systems to try and, primarily, improve shot feel and the other aspects of firing a gun that are impacted by cycling mass. I typically focus on efficiency. Both design strategies make compromises in some areas that the other may excel at. The point is - we are not Techt, we have no intentions of copying Techt (or anyone else for that matter), and not once have we or will we state that we are better than Techt - they are simply differently designed products and different for a reason. What we eventually release may do better than a Techt product at a specific function and they may do better than ours at others. It will most likely be some of each. But we will still not say we are better, just different and possibly have a product that is better at something in particular.

The esteem many of you have for Techt was hard earned. Take a look back through this forum to shortly after the G3 came out. Their first stab at an upgrade system for the G3 was not well received by much of anybody - many users had a drop in performance save for recoil. But they changed the designs, went back to the drawing board, and made a product that improved the performance of the gun drastically (the bolt engine, not just the bolt). They didn't do anything spectacular, they simply did the right thing - which is precisely what we intend to do.

If you would like, take a browse through the custom sections on here or MCB, and you can see some of the things that I have designed - there are links to some of them in my signature. I'm not a fly by night putz with a napkin sketch who thinks they can build something awesome despite having no firm grasp on the mechanics involved - I am a degreed mechanical engineer who deals primarily with fluid systems at my day job. Take a stroll through the closed bolt Ion thread in the custom section and notice that it took several years of refinement and testing for me to be happy enough with the results not being a fluke to release them publicly. You'll also get an idea of what kind of efficiency levels I expect from my designs there too. And recently when the project took another leap I gave anybody who ordered it in that time frame the choice of getting the previous release version immediately or waiting a little while for the newest version. The same thing has been going on with our mechanical Ion conversion thread on MCB with the pre-order group getting upgrades as they happen. We both take customer service seriously, and have no intention of leaving anybody hanging with a subpar product. Plain and simple - if I can't get a design working reliably for a gun, it does not get released as a product for that gun - it typically gets released open source for others to take a shot at or sometimes put on the back burner for hopes of future inspiration.

If people have thoughts on design aspects, I will be more than happy to think about valid suggestions. If there are specific issues that you want addressed with the stock or aftermarket options, let us know. Certain design possibilities you would like to see avoided, bring it up. We can not make everybody happy, have no delusions of being able to doing so, and are not going to go in circles trying.

It would be greatly appreciated if people tried to keep things constructive though. We are coming to the DP shooter community to try and keep your wants for a system in mind and determine which of a group of guns you would like to be first in line - that is not an opportunity most groups are presented with when dealing with a project like this.

Design aspects that I am comfortable stating:
  • Bolt will not be flat faced, there are (I feel) far better ways of preventing rollback that will be looked at being incorporated
  • The system will not be some heavy monstrosity
  • bolt features to promote being gentle on detents will be incorporated, likely tapering as keeping non-concentric bolt features (detent slots) properly aligned on a coaxial spool valve is problematic
  • efficiency will be first and foremost in my design goals with effort to minimize the impacts on other performance aspects


- Jonathan
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Old 08-03-2011, 05:24 PM #53
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Quote:
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First Two: Don't know. Orings, we agree.



To be honest, I don't care. You said we were doing a get rich quick scheme and insinuating we are scamming. I really don't care how active you are. You insulted us and I retorted and apparently you realized you were in the wrong so you edited your post. Maybe you should take a step back and think about competition, free market ideals, and the fact that we're trying to do something cool instead of bashing it as "hey! this guys are going to scam us!"
To be clear, my sarcastic comment was meant for dpot which is usually the last page I have on before I go to bed. It had nothing to with you and your boyfriends company. I edited because I was in the wrong thread not in "the wrong". I never insinuated that you were trying to scam us. Generally if someone is talking about someone else they use words like you or they, which did not do. For you to state you do not care says a lot about you and your "company". Successful company's like techt do care, and would not try to get the upperhand in some trash talking, if thats what it was intended to be. One less customer here, but you wouldent care about that.
And a pyramid scam is nothing close to asking people for input Btw
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Old 08-03-2011, 05:47 PM #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y0da900 View Post
As the person who will be designing this, I'd like to clarify a few things.

First off, this is a project in the works. I have several different configurations that I am contemplating going with, some of them are drastic refinements to familiar systems targeted at boosting efficiency and some are radically different from anything on the market or that has ever been on the market. None of them have been put into a DP marker as a test bed yet (yes, that means I have working prototypes of most of them in other systems). Deathwish has been trying very carefully to not make performance claims that are currently unknown or to paint us into a corner with promises - which some people have taken entirely the wrong way as admissions of an inferior product.



- Jonathan

Hey AOspades!
Does that answer your question?
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:31 PM #55
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I would be interested in a pre-order. My interests in a G4 bolt would be sound signature (I would like a super quiet G4), efficiency and compatibility with the stock backcap/PMD.
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:37 PM #56
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oim very interested in this bolt
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:41 PM #57
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I would be interested in a pre-order. My interests in a G4 bolt would be sound signature (I would like a super quiet G4), efficiency and compatibility with the stock backcap/PMD.
IIRC, there is only so much that can be done with the stock parts.It may be worth a shot, but in reality, may not be the "best" product that can be produced.
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:42 PM #58
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If people would not mind, could you please prioritize what you want in a bolt kit with the exception of light and efficient. We are not trying to compete with Techt on just weight, and efficiency is already the primary focus. But important things you would prefer us to pay close attention to as secondary focuses to try and keep things well balanced.
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:49 PM #59
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i would liek something different. I've seen some of the things youve done and they're [retty amazing and from your posts i can tell you take great pride in your work. I already can tell this product is gunna be great.
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:54 PM #60
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If you you don't mind me asking, what sort of efficiency are you hoping/expecting to be able to crank out of these kits (obviously many factors cause this to fluctuate). I would have to say that key points in a bolt system for myself are efficiency (a given, it seems), a quiet shot, and ease of maintenance. I would also highly recommend you look into the Fusion X platform as well.

But most of all.... ETA?
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:55 PM #61
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Thanks Ryan, I appreciate the vote of confidence. If I feel like something will be a let down, it just isn't going to happen Once we get a system in my hands, I will most likely build several prototypes so we can get a feel for which is the most promising in the platform before deciding which direction to move. I suppose losing Fridays at work will just help me get things done faster in the shop

My typical goal for a project is to be able to get to near a case per 68/45, but we'll see what kind of concessions have to be made in this form factor to get there.

ETA is when I'm comfortable with it being in the hands of the masses from a reliability standpoint.
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Old 08-03-2011, 07:02 PM #62
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IIRC, there is only so much that can be done with the stock parts.It may be worth a shot, but in reality, may not be the "best" product that can be produced.
I understand. Just my wish list.
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Old 08-03-2011, 07:03 PM #63
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If people would not mind, could you please prioritize what you want in a bolt kit with the exception of light and efficient. We are not trying to compete with Techt on just weight, and efficiency is already the primary focus. But important things you would prefer us to pay close attention to as secondary focuses to try and keep things well balanced.
Sound signature/quiteness.
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