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Old 08-01-2011, 05:06 PM #22
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Originally Posted by Rapier7 View Post
It doesn't cost the government anything to take in less money than it would have with higher effective tax rates.
It costs the poor and the middle class. The wealthy (at least under Bush/Cheney), meanwhile, were wiping their @$$e$ with the poor/middle class.
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Old 08-01-2011, 05:42 PM #23
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The majority of US politicians need to be relieved of duty. Absolute shame on the Democrats for giving so many concessions on this deal to please a few radical Republicans (Tea Party). Shame on the Tea Party for caring so little about the United States that they were willing to draw this whole thing out until the last minute to make Obama look bad. Little do they understand that most citizens are embarrassed by their behavior, and their little fit of theatrics has only sunk them deeper in the minds of voters.

I see nothing in this deal that wasn't already discussed and could have been passed 1 month ago. WTF is up with our politicians?
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:00 PM #24
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Originally Posted by PVversion666 View Post
It costs the poor and the middle class. The wealthy (at least under Bush/Cheney), meanwhile, were wiping their @$$e$ with the poor/middle class.
As a percentage of income, the rich pay more in taxes than the poor do. Given the fact that the redistribution of wealth favors the poor over the rich, your statement has merit. But government should not be about transfer payments, regardless of who is on the receiving end.
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:20 PM #25
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Why isn't anyone complaining that EIC wasn't cut?
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Old 08-01-2011, 10:55 PM #26
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Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
Why isn't anyone complaining that EIC wasn't cut?
Because theres nothing to complain about.
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Old 08-02-2011, 12:03 AM #27
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But people complain about the tax cuts that were put in place while Bush was in office...
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Old 08-02-2011, 12:09 AM #28
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But people complain about the tax cuts that were put in place while Bush was in office...
its pretty simple.

Democrats are allowed to cut taxes without getting any grief

Republicans are allowed to raise spending without getting any grief

However, if a democrat raises spending or a republican cuts taxes, we'll never hear the end of it.
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Old 08-02-2011, 12:13 AM #29
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or because this actually helps people (its basically Friedmans negative income tax proposal) while cuts for the ultra-wealthy didn't do ****
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Old 08-02-2011, 12:32 AM #30
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I read that the CBO estimates the expiration of the Bush tax cuts will result in an increase of three and a half trillion in terms of revenue over 10 years once the "spending cuts committee" calculates their cuts for the future.


EXTEND THAT ****
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Old 08-02-2011, 01:15 AM #31
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Want to raise my taxes again? Fine. End EIC too.
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Last edited by barrel roll : 08-02-2011 at 01:23 AM.
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Old 08-02-2011, 02:03 AM #32
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Originally Posted by AlphaNeo36 View Post
I read that the CBO estimates the expiration of the Bush tax cuts will result in an increase of three and a half trillion in terms of revenue over 10 years once the "spending cuts committee" calculates their cuts for the future.


EXTEND THAT ****
I really hope whatever you're smoking is covered under Obamacare.

We're projected to add 7 trillion to the debt over the next 10, assuming that all the cuts in this recent deal actually materialize and that the idiots up on the hill miraculously don't find any new ways to blow through trillions of dollars of cash on nothing squared. In other words the Bush tax cuts are far, far from the problem so gtfo with your dishonest liberal talking points already.
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Old 08-02-2011, 02:22 AM #33
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Dude, one Congress CANNOT bind another. Just like with RR, the "cuts" are never going to materialize.
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Old 08-02-2011, 02:37 AM #34
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Originally Posted by AlphaNeo36 View Post
I read that the CBO estimates the expiration of the Bush tax cuts will result in an increase of three and a half trillion in terms of revenue over 10 years once the "spending cuts committee" calculates their cuts for the future.


EXTEND THAT ****
Cite economists plz.


Also, you guys are purposely missing Rapier's point. Why is that? Or do you not understand basic liberal democratic philosophy?
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Old 08-02-2011, 02:38 AM #35
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That may be the case but we're in debt, and we need to pay it off. We won't be able to pay off the trillions of dollars we owe with spending cuts alone, and those who tout fiscal responsibility and claim we can do it without increasing revenues are hypocrites.

Usually hypocrites that don't want to pay for the services THEY use. Majority of Tea Party supporters oppose cuts to Medicare, Medicaid
http://www.economics.harvard.edu/fac...ber_200 9.pdf

Empirical evidence blah blah blah
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Old 08-02-2011, 02:59 AM #36
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Some criticism on that paper

http://www.economist.com/node/171476...ry_id=17147618
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Old 08-02-2011, 03:18 AM #37
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That article concedes that they may be right, and then ends with some orthodox keynesianism. Why can't we lower interest rates further? Srsly any answer?
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Old 08-02-2011, 12:51 PM #38
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Want to raise my taxes again? Fine. End EIC too.
Since Obama was talking about only raising the taxes of those who make in excess of $250,000 I seriously doubt you have anything to worry about. However its nice that you all are so concerned for the wealthy. Maybe you should send them some cookies too!
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Old 08-02-2011, 01:05 PM #39
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I've already saw an increase in what I paid in taxes since he's been in office, and the majority of his term was spent with me in the military.
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Old 08-02-2011, 01:09 PM #40
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Want to raise my taxes again? Fine. End EIC too.
Agreed. In point of fact, I'd be in favor of eliminating all refundable tax credits. After all, didn't Obama say that "everybody has to chip in?"
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Old 08-02-2011, 02:26 PM #41
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Since Obama was talking about only raising the taxes of those who make in excess of $250,000 I seriously doubt you have anything to worry about. However its nice that you all are so concerned for the wealthy. Maybe you should send them some cookies too!
Yup. Not that I haven't been saying it for years, but it's simply amazing how successfully the right wing has convinced people to vote against their own interests and get downright angry when people suggest they not do it.

One of the better analyses I've seen today, of course it takes someone not in this country to see this clearly:

Quote:
There are two ways of cutting a deficit: raising taxes or reducing spending. Raising taxes means taking money from the rich. Cutting spending means taking money from the poor. Not in all cases of course: some taxation is regressive; some state spending takes money from ordinary citizens and gives it to banks, arms companies, oil barons and farmers. But in most cases the state transfers wealth from rich to poor, while tax cuts shift it from poor to rich.

So the rich, in a nominal democracy, have a struggle on their hands. Somehow they must persuade the other 99% to vote against their own interests: to shrink the state, supporting spending cuts rather than tax rises. In the US they appear to be succeeding.

Partly as a result of the Bush tax cuts of 2001, 2003 and 2005 (shamefully extended by Barack Obama), taxation of the wealthy, in Obama's words, "is at its lowest level in half a century". The consequence of such regressive policies is a level of inequality unknown in other developed nations. As the Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz points out, in the past 10 years the income of the top 1% has risen by 18%, while that of blue-collar male workers has fallen by 12%.

The deal being thrashed out in Congress as this article goes to press seeks only to cut state spending. As the former Republican senator Alan Simpson says: "The little guy is going to be cremated." That means more economic decline, which means a bigger deficit. It's insane. But how did it happen?

The immediate reason is that Republican members of Congress supported by the Tea Party movement won't budge. But this explains nothing. The Tea Party movement mostly consists of people who have been harmed by tax cuts for the rich and spending cuts for the poor and middle. Why would they mobilise against their own welfare? You can understand what is happening in Washington only if you remember what everyone seems to have forgotten: how this movement began.

On Sunday the Observer claimed that "the Tea Party rose out of anger over the scale of federal spending, and in particular in bailing out the banks". This is what its members claim. It's nonsense.

The movement started with Rick Santelli's call on CNBC for a tea party of city traders to dump securities in Lake Michigan, in protest at Obama's plan to "subsidise the losers". In other words, it was a demand for a financiers' mobilisation against the bailout of their victims: people losing their homes. On the same day, a group called Americans for Prosperity (AFP) set up a Tea Party Facebook page and started organising Tea Party events. The movement, whose programme is still lavishly supported by AFP, took off from there.

So who or what is Americans for Prosperity? It was founded and is funded by Charles and David Koch. They run what they call "the biggest company you've never heard of", and between them they are worth $43bn. Koch Industries is a massive oil, gas, minerals, timber and chemicals company. In the past 15 years the brothers have poured at least $85m into lobby groups arguing for lower taxes for the rich and weaker regulations for industry. The groups and politicians the Kochs fund also lobby to destroy collective bargaining, to stop laws reducing carbon emissions, to stymie healthcare reform and to hobble attempts to control the banks. During the 2010 election cycle, AFP spent $45m supporting its favoured candidates.

But the Kochs' greatest political triumph is the creation of the Tea Party movement. Taki Oldham's film (Astro)Turf Wars shows Tea Party organisers reporting back to David Koch at their 2009 Defending the Dream summit, explaining the events and protests they've started with AFP help. "Five years ago," he tells them, "my brother Charles and I provided the funds to start Americans for Prosperity. It's beyond my wildest dreams how AFP has grown into this enormous organisation."

AFP mobilised the anger of people who found their conditions of life declining, and channelled it into a campaign to make them worse. Tea Party campaigners take to the streets to demand less tax for billionaires and worse health, education and social insurance for themselves.

Are they stupid? No. They have been misled by another instrument of corporate power: the media. The movement has been relentlessly promoted by Fox News, which belongs to a more familiar billionaire. Like the Kochs, Rupert Murdoch aims to misrepresent the democratic choices we face, in order to persuade us to vote against our own interests and in favour of his.

What's taking place in Congress right now is a kind of political coup. A handful of billionaires have shoved a spanner into the legislative process. Through the candidates they have bought and the movement that supports them, they are now breaking and reshaping the system to serve their interests. We knew this once, but now we've forgotten. What hope do we have of resisting a force we won't even see?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...deal-tea-party

One thing this tells you is that the political narratives in this country are really off the mark even as they are simplistic and effective.

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I've already saw an increase in what I paid in taxes since he's been in office, and the majority of his term was spent with me in the military.
Do explain. I mean, if you got an increase in income, you got an increase in taxes paid, but I would hardly call that a negative eventuality.
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Old 08-02-2011, 03:07 PM #42
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My charitable contributions, and work related expenses weren't counted the same as they were previous years, which raised my effective tax rate. To combat the extra money they were going to take, I adjusted my W2 so I owed $5 instead of receiving a few hundred dollars at the end of the last tax season.


Married, dual income, no kids = tax loser
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