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Old 07-21-2011, 06:28 PM #22
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Originally Posted by drgonzo View Post
Yup. When you look at the function of government, its entire operation is predicated on the collection and expenditure of money. It's high time we got rid of the idea that expenditure of money by the government is a problem in and of itself, because the government MUST spend money to do anything.

Demonizing the expenditure of money by the government doesn't make sense and isn't a productive viewpoint.
People have a problem with the obscene amounts of money being spent (and often wasted), not just the fact that the government is "spending some money". Nice attempt to distract from the actual issue, though.
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Old 07-21-2011, 06:55 PM #23
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the fact that people go after Planned Parenthood never ceases to amaze me. Strong stupidity in their heads.

i'm using planned parenthood as an example....trust me i'm very equal opportunity in my beliefs when it comes to social programs.
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Old 07-21-2011, 07:11 PM #24
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the fact that people go after Planned Parenthood never ceases to amaze me. Strong stupidity in their heads.
And why is that?
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Old 07-21-2011, 07:17 PM #25
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People have a problem with the obscene amounts of money being spent
The problem with a concept like "obscene amounts of money" is that it has no rational objective basis. What exactly is an "obscene amount of money" and what is not? How do you arrive at that number?

The US us a huge, highly populated, powerful country with a high standard of living. By objective measures the only thing we are truly spending way more money on than other comparable entities is our military, with our healthcare system coming in second.

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not just the fact that the government is "spending some money". Nice attempt to distract from the actual issue, though.
The only person who used the term "spending some money" in this thread is you. You completely manufactured that quote. Dishonesty is not a basis for rational discussion.
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Old 07-21-2011, 10:21 PM #26
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The problem with a concept like "obscene amounts of money" is that it has no rational objective basis. What exactly is an "obscene amount of money" and what is not? How do you arrive at that number?

The US us a huge, highly populated, powerful country with a high standard of living. By objective measures the only thing we are truly spending way more money on than other comparable entities is our military, with our healthcare system coming in second.



The only person who used the term "spending some money" in this thread is you. You completely manufactured that quote. Dishonesty is not a basis for rational discussion.

1) I would argue that 14 trillion dollars of debt is considered obscene, so is having an unhealthy balance of debt-GDP, and that in 2 weeks we are on the verge of our first default. I think that's where the rest of us drew the line, but perhaps your horizons are farther reaching still.

2) We misappropriate funds like crazy through beauracracy, complicated tax codes, we spend an enormous amount on social welfare programs that do as much harm as they do good, our military is bloated an located in nearly every country, and we have a consistent need to tax our citizens bc our costs continue to outweigh our revenue generation.

Sure we have a good standard of living thanks to some government programs, but that has come at a very high cost (14 trillion, mostly). Is it possible that some of these areas could be taken out of Gov't hands and into the private sector where competition and profit margins dictate play, and quality is (typically) improved?
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Old 07-22-2011, 01:24 PM #27
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1) I would argue that 14 trillion dollars of debt is considered obscene
As compared to? The 12 trillion under Bush? What is the objective measure?

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so is having an unhealthy balance of debt-GDP
Our balance is not bad or unhealthy, nothing bad has happened because of the debt per se -- yet. It is the self-inflicted policy wounds could cause that are unhealthy.

The US ranks 37th on the world public debt chart, hardly an alarming figure for the largest economy in the world by far.

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and that in 2 weeks we are on the verge of our first default.
This has been the case 2 weeks before every debt ceiling raise in US history. This has happened 78 times before in just the last 50 years. There is no reason to have a problem with the 79th instance.

Ultimately the debt ceiling raise is a meaningless procedural vote. If there was agreement on debt reduction policy, it would be enacted already.
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:42 PM #28
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Originally Posted by drgonzo View Post
As compared to? The 12 trillion under Bush? What is the objective measure?



Our balance is not bad or unhealthy, nothing bad has happened because of the debt per se -- yet. It is the self-inflicted policy wounds could cause that are unhealthy.

The US ranks 37th on the world public debt chart, hardly an alarming figure for the largest economy in the world by far.



This has been the case 2 weeks before every debt ceiling raise in US history. This has happened 78 times before in just the last 50 years. There is no reason to have a problem with the 79th instance.

Ultimately the debt ceiling raise is a meaningless procedural vote. If there was agreement on debt reduction policy, it would be enacted already.
So because we also had huge debt under bush that makes the debt fine? Do you do anything but strawman?
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Old 07-23-2011, 01:30 AM #29
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So because we also had huge debt under bush that makes the debt fine?
It depends on the objective case you are making. You have to look at the situation and policy; when you're in the worst recession in the nation's history, there's a very strong argument to be made that deficit spending is appropriate. Identifying 12 of the 14 million in debt as being in place before the current policies were put in place (10.5 if we're generous) is important as it clarifies a statistic that is often used to mislead people into believing that the debt problem is the result of current policies (the evidence of which is seen in this very thread).
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Old 07-23-2011, 01:55 AM #30
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It depends on the objective case you are making. You have to look at the situation and policy; when you're in the worst recession in the nation's history, there's a very strong argument to be made that deficit spending is appropriate. Identifying 12 of the 14 million in debt as being in place before the current policies were put in place (10.5 if we're generous) is important as it clarifies a statistic that is often used to mislead people into believing that the debt problem is the result of current policies (the evidence of which is seen in this very thread).
strawman. strawman. strawman. As an objective fact, I'm arguing that massive deficit/debt is a negative regardless of which letter (r or d) the current administration hangs their hat.
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Old 07-23-2011, 02:00 AM #31
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strawman. strawman. strawman. As an objective fact, I'm arguing that massive deficit/debt is a negative regardless of which letter (r or d) the current administration hangs their hat.
I don't think you understand what a strawman is. I am asking for an objective standard rather than the subjective bull**** being doled out. Any specific figure illustrates that the lack of an objective standard allows one to make any case he wants to.

By the way, this is a classic strawman:

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So because we also had huge debt under bush that makes the debt fine?
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Old 07-23-2011, 02:05 AM #32
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I don't think you understand what a strawman is. I am asking for an objective standard rather than the subjective bull**** being doled out. Any specific figure illustrates that the lack of an objective standard allows one to make any case he wants to.
Yes, and the objective fact is that deficit spending has yet to prove effective in any context other than putting the US into debt. its not hard to follow.
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Old 07-23-2011, 02:06 AM #33
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I don't think you understand what a strawman is. I am asking for an objective standard rather than the subjective bull**** being doled out. Any specific figure illustrates that the lack of an objective standard allows one to make any case he wants to.
You haven't posed an objective standard in this entire thread.
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Old 07-23-2011, 02:07 AM #34
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It depends on the objective case you are making. You have to look at the situation and policy; when you're in the worst recession in the nation's history, there's a very strong argument to be made that deficit spending is appropriate. Identifying 12 of the 14 million in debt as being in place before the current policies were put in place (10.5 if we're generous) is important as it clarifies a statistic that is often used to mislead people into believing that the debt problem is the result of current policies (the evidence of which is seen in this very thread).
The debt problem is the result of a structural government spending problem.

Do you have any objective proof that suggests otherwise, besides conjecture?

Also, deficit spending is retarded. The keynesians lost the debate again. NGDP targeting is far more effective, pragmatic, and it doesn't put a strain on the deficit.
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Old 07-23-2011, 04:25 AM #35
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Also, deficit spending is retarded. The keynesians lost the debate again. NGDP targeting is far more effective, pragmatic, and it doesn't put a strain on the deficit.
"it wasn't big enough"
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Old 07-23-2011, 04:40 AM #36
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You haven't posed an objective standard in this entire thread.
Actually I'm the only one who has posted objective standards in this thread; there have been at least 4. And I'm not even the one who judged in the first place. Gimme a ****ing break.
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Old 07-23-2011, 12:14 PM #37
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Actually I'm the only one who has posted objective standards in this thread; there have been at least 4. And I'm not even the one who judged in the first place. Gimme a ****ing break.
You've posted a few strawman arguments, and pushed the meme that deficit spending is great if you're in a recession for some reason, even though it hasn't done much in the past 2 years of this one and the enormous deficit has dampened the economy and imperiled our future.
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Old 07-23-2011, 12:51 PM #38
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Why do you say deficit spending hasn't done much?
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Old 07-23-2011, 12:54 PM #39
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Why do you say deficit spending hasn't done much?
because, it hasn't and will never.
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Old 07-23-2011, 12:55 PM #40
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Why do you say deficit spending hasn't done much?
Better question, what has it done (in regards to this recession)?
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Old 07-23-2011, 12:56 PM #41
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Better question, what has it done (in regards to this recession)?
You made the comment, I'm trying to get a better understanding of your statement.
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Old 07-23-2011, 01:06 PM #42
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Evidence suggests that the net effect of deficit spending is actually negative. How bout that?
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