[Swerve22]

Originally Posted by Bill Watterson

Fine. Then provide a plan for securing the border that can be done within one political generation and has the support of politicians and citizens.

Can you show me where your idea of "open borders" has the support of politicians and citizens?

There are many ways to improve border security and cut down on illegals incentive and ability to be here such as completing the fences we have started, systems such as E-verify and empowering local LE officials which have been shown to have been having success, etc. etc.

No, it's a fact that the majority are good people. Do you really think that if the majority of illegal immigrants were violent criminals they'd still be here?

Source for this "fact"? Didn't think so. You don't know the percentage any more than I do of who and what is coming across the border. Yeah they're probably mostly good people, but we don't just not have laws because "the majority" of people would obey them. Nieve much?

[SuperSupra619 (Banned)]

I think the best way to prevent illegals from entering the US is to make sure that American companies don't hire them. If they know they can't get hired if they don't have papers, they wont even bother attempting to cross the border illegally.

[Swerve22]

Exactly.

[Wango_Tango]

Originally Posted by Tuff

Does Bill? He said he can't live without this place. But that's ok right? Right. Why? You're his pal and you wouldn't question him ever. You're his property. You and you're cute lil gang of liberals are the ones who are mad that this place doesn't just roll over and let all of you troll your liberal beliefs of open borders, pro drugs, big government nonsense you love. Most of you don't even own a paintball gun, lulz.

You admitting you don't take this seriously (aka not here for actual discussion because you're a one liner troll) is hereby noted. Oh and you're owned.

of course he does. He lives here no doubt. I'm sure there are some people who treat this place like a full time job, relentlessly researching their positions, trying to incredibly hard to find faults in others posts or general stances on whatever subject is being discussed. You may not fall entirely into that part, but my god do you treat this like a competition, always hoping, trying to get the upper hand on everyone you disagree with.

I see you posting in the gaming section...perhaps after some good games come out in the fall, you'll find an outlet to blow off some steam and stop taking this forum as seriously.

[Bill Watterson]

Originally Posted by Swerve22

Can you show me where your idea of "open borders" has the support of politicians and citizens?

I never said it does. But neither do closed borders. Fact remains simplifying the immigration process would be here if not for confused, angry Republicans and inconsistent democrats.

There are many ways to improve border security and cut down on illegals incentive and ability to be here such as completing the fences we have started, systems such as E-verify and empowering local LE officials which have been shown to have been having success, etc. etc.

So why isn't it being done if the majority of people support relatively closed, regulated borders?

Source for this "fact"? Didn't think so.

http://www.wusf.usf.edu/news/2011/01...rants_does_not

You can find numbers like these ALL OVER the country. Nice try.
The vast majority of illegals are normal, hard-working people. Are you seriously trying to say that most (>50%) of the illegal immigrants are violent criminals? rofl

You don't know the percentage any more than I do of who and what is coming across the border. Yeah they're probably mostly good people, but we don't just not have laws because "the majority" of people would obey them. Nieve much?

Why is it that immigrants who disregard our laws are so much worse than citizens?
Naive much (sweet typo brah)?

[Bill Watterson]

Originally Posted by Wango_Tango

of course he does. He lives here no doubt. I'm sure there are some people who treat this place like a full time job, relentlessly researching their positions, trying to incredibly hard to find faults in others posts or general stances on whatever subject is being discussed. You may not fall entirely into that part, but my god do you treat this like a competition, always hoping, trying to get the upper hand on everyone you disagree with.

I see you posting in the gaming section...perhaps after some good games come out in the fall, you'll find an outlet to blow off some steam and stop taking this forum as seriously.

Lul if I could work for St;P I would. I've dealt with too much bull**** in this year alone to not be paid.

[SuperSupra619 (Banned)]

Originally Posted by Swerve22

Exactly.

Then why are you dead set on believing that securing our borders is the best way to combat illegal immigration? What if the feds go headstrong at businesses who hire illegals and impose serious fines and consequences if caught hiring them? Do you think that would be more or less constructive than "land mines and snipers" like some complete idiots have been calling for in this thread.

[Bill Watterson]

He believes that such policies are the same as secure border policies actually...

[Tuff]

Originally Posted by Wango_Tango

I see you posting in the gaming section...perhaps after some good games come out in the fall, you'll find an outlet to blow off some steam and stop taking this forum as seriously.

At least you acknowledged Bill lives here.

I like gaming more than this forum, but the gaming forum caters around Call of Duty and MMO's as opposed to discussion old school games and new games that aren't CoD or MMO's.

It would be good if some of the games due this fall do not all drop late Oct-mid Nov like they normally do. But they likely will and it will give me more time to lol @ Supra for thinking people are going to put snipers at the border and Bill for thinking that Americans want the border open because it hasn't been closed yet and that less than 50% of illegals being criminals makes the invasion OK when it's clearly more complex than that. I trumped him in an old thread, thus the 7 follow ups threads from him all bent out of shape.

I could give a **** if you flame me, but call others on bull**** once in a while too would improve your own credibility as well.

[Swerve22]

Originally Posted by SuperSupra619

Then why are you dead set on believing that securing our borders is the best way to combat illegal immigration? What if the feds go headstrong at businesses who hire illegals and impose serious fines and consequences if caught hiring them? Do you think that would be more or less constructive than "land mines and snipers" like some complete idiots have been calling for in this thread.

I actually said that both ways would be good. I didn't say which was better than the other. I'm for taking advantage of all opportunities to secure the border as well as reduce incentive to come here illegally.

[Bill Watterson]

I love how when Tuff speaks for me he never provides direct quotes because he always must implement his patented hyperbole.

Hey Swerve willing to concede the majority of illegals are otherwise law-abiding and respecting individuals (ignoring the few laws they break [like any American])

[Swerve22]

What? I don't think you understand the arguments being made in this thread.

[Bill Watterson]

Maybe you can't read:

Originally Posted by Swerve22

Source for this "fact"? Didn't think so.

Originally Posted by Tuff

Bill for thinking that Americans want the border open because it hasn't been closed yet

Neither you nor Tuff have been able to grasp my argument about political possibility and political legitimacy.

Nice try though, insulting my ability to understand your rather conventional arguments instead of responding and admitting you were wrong.

[Swerve22]

So where exactly did I challenge the point? I asked for a source and you were unable to provide one. It's not even relevant to the argument anyway, because as I have said from the beginning we don't not have laws just because "the majority" of people are nice.

[Bill Watterson]

Originally Posted by Swerve22

So where exactly did I challenge the point? I asked for a source and you were unable to provide one. It's not even relevant to the argument anyway, because as I have said from the beginning we don't not have laws just because "the majority" of people are nice.

You're probably trolling but:

You asked a rhetorical question, at least you phrased it in such a way when you answered the question in the next sentence, before I had a chance to post in response to you. You claimed I didn't know the percentage any more than you do, which is garbage. Your e-verify system and "empowering local LE" verifies the fact. The majority of those deported are otherwise non-criminals.

I already provided a source, and you yourself can do "your own homework" to borrow your phrase and find out that the majority of illegals are typically law-abiding people. You also cover your *** by saying it's irrelevant, which is just silly. If it is irrelevant why tell me I'm wrong and unable to provide a source before I can even see your response?

BTW, your reason for it being irrelevant is just ridiculous. That's not at all what I was arguing, so go burn that straw man and try not to bring it up again.

This is what I originally said:

When the vast majority of illegals are nothing like your paragraph describes them to be, it only becomes harder to properly distinguish between criminals and people looking to live the American dream.

That's is all I said. Nothing about how the percentage of lawbreakers who are otherwise good people effects the legitimacy of the law (which it does in public opinion, but that's a different argument).

Can you also deal with the arguments and studies in this article?

The vast majority of immigrants, legal and illegal, who come to the United States are not criminals or terrorists. Most simply want to work to create a better life for themselves and their families. Some studies report that illegal immigrants are even less likely than the native-born population to commit crimes.9

What about the immigrants who do commit crimes? Many people advocate restricting immigration because of the threat that some immigrants may commit crimes. But why restrict, just to prevent the potential crimes of a few, the vast majority who want to work? A better solution would be to not admit known criminals or terrorists but to welcome the rest. Then, the government could deport any immigrants who do commit a crime once they are here. That would help keep incarceration costs down while simultaneously bringing us the benefits of non-criminal immigrants.

But wouldn't an open-borders policy open the way for more terrorists to come into the country? An open border with legal check points could help authorities search for those on the terrorist-watch list. Sure, some might slip through, but right now terrorists could sneak into the country illegally while hiding among more than a million other illegal immigrants crossing the border in the desert. If a more open immigration policy were established, the legitimate workers could come through check points, freeing existing border-control enforcement to focus on finding the terrorists.

http://www.econlib.org/library/Colum...migration.html

More proof against your worldview is here, and you've provided no reason to question the studies and theories.

[Tuff]

Originally Posted by Bill Watterson

I love how when Tuff speaks for me he never provides direct quotes because he always must implement his patented hyperbole.

I've quoted you numerous times. Another horrible reply. All you are doing is citing PBN catch phrases

Originally Posted by Bill Watterson

http://www.econlib.org/library/Colum...migration.html

More proof against your worldview is here, and you've provided no reason to question the studies and theories.

Dude, the guy you quoted is making all sorts of horse**** statements. I could just as easily make a "study" and toss my name on it like this guy

"If I have a cousin in Ireland who wants to move into my home in the United States, they would say that he should not be allowed to because he might be a burden to other taxpayers."

False. We're saying he cannot just move in because you need to prove you can speak English and apply for citizenship. The United States isn't the only country in the world, nor is it open for the entire planet to just move in because THEY feel like moving here. Not how it works.

"The right to immigration is the right of existing American property owners to freely associate by employing people on their property or renting or selling their property to people born in other countries. Immigration restrictions attenuate those property rights"

This article is apparently where you get your beliefs, Bill. They're still wrong too. You do NOT have the right to bring anyone you want from another country to live in your house. You do NOT have that right. How many times do you need to hear this? This country has limits on how many people can live here, and you think you have all these rights to do what you want while here. You don't.

http://www.endillegalimmigration.com...ws/index.shtml

Go brush up on law. Moreover, these people you want to bring in - many do not know English. That's a safety problem.

Here's a gem from your own article

"Even though the vast majority of immigrants come to the United States to work, it is likely true that completely open borders would result in a tremendous drain on the welfare state"

They abuse welfare. By not having control over the border, as many people as you claim come here for "work and peaceful purposes" it doesn't mean Mexican criminals aren't crossing the border.

http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/410...ustice_sum.pdf

"The federal government has taken some steps to reimburse states for some of the costs associated with criminal illegal aliens"

aka - illegal aliens cost. Court costs to "defend" them, house them, feed them, etc. Clearly, criminals are the end result of many illegal aliens, unless you want to come out and declare "illegal aliens don't cause trouble and don't go to jail". You leave the border open, you cannot determine who comes into the country, and you cannot weed out the scumbags that Mexico gladly drops off on us.

"What about the immigrants who do commit crimes? Many people advocate restricting immigration because of the threat that some immigrants may commit crimes. But why restrict, just to prevent the potential crimes of a few, the vast majority who want to work?"

This statement is very telling. It tells me Mr Powell is willing to deal with criminals because some people want work. Since when is it the responsibility of the United States to supply Mexicans and other illegals with work? Can you site where that law is written? Spare me the passage after what I quoted, I saw it. Fact remains, he is quite willing to sacrifice in order to satisfy the illegals. I wonder hoe he would feel if his family was on the receiving end of a rape and murder from some illegals.

This is the United States Bill. Our duty is to take care of our own citizens, not Mexico. If you have a passion for Mexican people, you are free to move there. Here in the United States, we need to worry bout the jobs and Sovereignty of American citizens, not Mexican ones.

Four months going now, and you still fail to grasp this. If you aren't trolling (and we both know you are) then you're lost if you continue to approach this argument from a "THEY HELP OUR ECONOMY! WE NEED THEM" point of view.

We "need" illegal aliens like we "need" slaves. The south allowed itself to become overly dependent on slaves was why they "needed' them. That's what certain people have done, allow parts of the country to "need" these illegals. It's a laughable, false, joke reality that people such as this guy and yourself have been trying to bull**** people into believing, much like the southern leaders did to the citizens back in the 1800's. And because you're as predictable as you are unemployed, this isn't comparing slavery to illegal aliens. You know it too, so save that nonsense.....unless you're trying to troll.

I eagerly await your "been there, done that" reply, as well as less than objective partisan hack commentary from your little gang.

[Bill Watterson]

lol you're a joke. Now illegal immigration "dependence" is being compared to the southern slave labor market. ROFL.

Powell says the best way to deal with criminals is to allow other-wise law-following immigrants in, allowing LE to focus on actual criminals. Straw man after straw man.

Why don't you deal with the study that shows natives are more likely to commit crimes?

Hey Tuff: Would you really be less bothered if a citizen raped and murdered your family versus an illegal? Logically following that, do you believe illegals/people visiting a country should be less bothered when experiencing rape and murder due to the fact that they don't belong? You're crazy.

[Tuff]

Originally Posted by Bill Watterson

lol you're a joke. Now illegal immigration "dependence" is being compared to the southern slave labor market. ROFL.

Already addressed this. Do the drugs make you delusional?

Powell says....

And I will once again requote since arguing a drug addict who is looking to troll is boring...

Mr Powell wrote:"What about the immigrants who do commit crimes? Many people advocate restricting immigration because of the threat that some immigrants may commit crimes. But why restrict, just to prevent the potential crimes of a few, the vast majority who want to work?"

Tuff wrote in reply:This statement is very telling. It tells me Mr Powell is willing to deal with criminals because some people want work. Since when is it the responsibility of the United States to supply Mexicans and other illegals with work? Can you site where that law is written? Spare me the passage after what I quoted, I saw it. Fact remains, he is quite willing to sacrifice in order to satisfy the illegals. I wonder hoe he would feel if his family was on the receiving end of a rape and murder from some illegals.

Why don't you deal with the study that shows natives are more likely to commit crimes?

Because A) Our citizens are our problem, and Mexico's citizens are Mexico's problem and B) Your studies are as 'legit" as Mr Powell.

Would you really be less bothered if a citizen raped and murdered your family versus an illegal? Logically following that, do you believe illegals/people visiting a country should be less bothered when experiencing rape and murder due to the fact that they don't belong?

Bother the same amount. The problem is that illegals are NOT our problem. We do not need to worry about the criminals of the entire world unless you can find a law that says we are supposed to.

Go lie some more about my actual reason for citing slavery. I totally called that. Replies like that are very telling as to why you remain unemployed and Volucris works at a Walmart.

[Bill Watterson]

No **** you addressed it. I said it was stupid.

Even if I was a drug addict, I still look better than you. Troll.

edit: Lol thats right, im unemployed because of my posting here, not because I live in a county with 20%+ unemployment, 3rd worst in the country. Stay classy. Even Swerve won't support you....

[Tuff]

Nah, you didn't say it was stupid and everyone can read it clear as day. You tried to compare them.

Even Swerve won't support you....

Just talked to him yesterday. We had a good laugh at your expense.

Your failures aren't exclusive to the unemployment rate in that area. Consider moving out of the area then, as that area clearly is not doing you any favors for your resume, physical health, or mental well being. Oh and you talking about "staying classy" - really? YOU of all people? The lulz is strong with that one.

Take care Bill. Good luck with the job hunt. Lay off the pills and pot and I think it will improve your chances of passing a drug test and finding suitable employment.

[The Abstract]

I doubt Tuff even has a job or has attended college considering he's never specified exactly why he does or what he studied in school. Probably because he is still 17 years old