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Old 07-23-2011, 12:43 PM #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ralpst View Post
Yeah, excessive regulation is a problem. Insufficient regulation is also a problem. So who exactly is supposed to fix our currently abysmal health care system? The insurance companies themselves? They have the biggest conflict of interest of all. They treat health care as a profit loss, which is completely antithetical to the role they are supposed to be playing.
Excessive regulation is killing them. Obamacare is making it worse. Go ask any company which direction their healthcare costs are moving. The it's not the insurance companies jobs to "fix" anything, it's their job to compete and offer a product that is appealing to individuals. Unfortunately there is far too much government regulation in the way such as not being able to purchase across state lines (hampering competition), the employer tax deduction (hampering competition and limiting choice and mobility), not being able to provide certain plans that would provide cheaper options for many (eg catastrophic high deductible plans), etc. etc. etc.

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I'm pretty sure it is allowed to be sold. It's problematic because it incentivizes you to avoid regular medical care, making average preventative physicals and routine check-ups prohibitively expensive.
No, it is not allowed to be sold. And your assumption here is the opposite of reality. People are more likely to go to the doctor for any old thing when it is largely covered, and not think about the cost as it is not up to them to pick up the bill. Doctors etc. can also charge more to a degree (and prescribe more, suggest irrelevant screenings, etc. etc.) because the customer in many cases never sees the price tag. These check ups are expensive precisely because we think they're "free" because our insurance takes care of it.

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This creates an incentive to wait until your condition is serious to seek medical care, which often raises costs exponentially.
Wrong. When people suspect there is something wrong with them they will go in for a screening, and they will still have the option of full coverage if they want it - leaving catastrophic or high deductible insurance to those that understand they will be paying for their screenings and are comfortable with it. And because it's not "free", they will not be needlessly going to the ER for every single thing from a stubbed toe to the common cold.

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Other systems which produce similar average quality yet at a fraction of the cost stress preventative care and regular check-ups because they are spending taxpayer money if a condition gets serious and requires expensive care.
Which systems are these with the "similar average quality"? I'd love to see a fiscally solvent example of this.

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Right. That's why health care expenditure as % of GDP jumped from 13% to 16% from 2000-2007. Because of Obama. Yeah. Man, and costs sure went up from 1981-1993 and again from 2000-2006. Who were the presidents then again...?
What does any of this have to do with who happens to be in office? R's and D's have destroyed the healthcare system over the years Obamacare has only been the icing on the cake. You think obamacare has helped? Name 1 thing that it has improved.

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People are dropping their insurance coverage because they cannot afford it due to cost increases by insurers. And guess what kind of people. Healthy people. This means the bulk of people buying insurance are likely to get sick. This means insurers need to raise premiums to cover new costs. This means more people drop their policies. Repeat, repeat, repeat. The insurance companies are in a death spiral.
No. Plenty of healthy people buy insurance. The rising cost is the problem as we've already identified and the rising costs are primarily due to government regulation as we've already gone over earlier in this post and in others.


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The concept that healthy people will simply not buy health insurance and will then show up at the ER, costing everyone money,
Lie. It does not cost other people money when somebody goes to the ER with no insurance unless they can't pay for it and declare bankruptcy. Hardly the "rule", more like the "exception", and not even close to a key driver of costs. Nice talking point though.

Quote:
is the reasoning behind the individual mandate.
So that's all it takes for you to justify flushing one of our constitutionally secured liberties right down the john eh? Somebody telling you it will make things cheaper? Lets not forget what has actually happened to healthcare costs since you sat happily while they destroyed our liberty up on capitol hill: Nothing. Scratch that, costs have continued to rise and we find ourselves in the exact same situation we were in before the act with a little less liberty for ourselves. Funny how things work out when you put politicians in charge of them. Joke on us?

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We've allowed private insurers to be a part of our health care system, and if they can't find a way to adapt their business models so that they actually provide access to care, good riddance. Either let providers set their prices or the government. The hybrid model isn't working.
Let private providers compete. We don't need the government destroying a plan that is working for 290 million Americans because 10 million don't have insurance. The could have focused on those 10 million all along if they really wanted to help, and they could make things quite better for the 290 million to boot if they would stop sticking their leg out in front of insurance providers and then blaming them when they fall.
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Old 07-23-2011, 04:50 PM #107
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I'm not dodging any question. I'm just wondering why it hasn't impacted our long term capacity. You're the one not answering that.



Like...when?

like here?

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...light=quintile
No, you're using your "wonder" as the answer. Go back and read. And your data doesn't show anything, other than that the market has continued to grow at a steady rate, despite cumbersome regulations, with technological innovations and booms, so do you really think it's that hard to explain?

Here, lets get down to the worker level. Swedish-Americans work 50% harder than the Swedish. The most commonly accepted explanation for this is the different taxes. Yet Swedes still do fine in their home countries.

BTW, in that thread, Frank posted conjecture. Plus it was a long time ago. I've already dealt with that. You keep hiding away from the fact that the only consumer goods that haven't experienced price deflation are education, housing, and healthcare, all three heavily subsidized with heavy government intervention. You haven't replied to that, and know why? Because you can't find anything in google. Maybe if you did some actual reading, you wouldn't be throwing DeKrugman at us...
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Old 07-23-2011, 05:21 PM #108
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No, you're using your "wonder" as the answer. Go back and read. And your data doesn't show anything, other than that the market has continued to grow at a steady rate, despite cumbersome regulations
Exactly!

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with technological innovations and booms, so do you really think it's that hard to explain?
It must be if you still haven't done it after multiple posts of nothing but personal attacks.

Quote:
BTW, in that thread, Frank posted conjecture. Plus it was a long time ago. I've already dealt with that. You keep hiding away from the fact that the only consumer goods that haven't experienced price deflation are education, housing, and healthcare, all three heavily subsidized with heavy government intervention. You haven't replied to that, and know why? Because you can't find anything in google. Maybe if you did some actual reading, you wouldn't be throwing DeKrugman at us...
uh no. you're changing the subject. you said i don't read the papers i cite (still waiting for evidence of that) even though its clear that either you don't read the **** you post or that you lack basic math skills (or possibly both). I don't want to be a dick and give people **** for mistakes, but if you're going to be a **** about everything then maybe you deserve to be brought down a peg. I think Frank might have been onto something when he called you out as being a troll.

btw, it has to do with the **** you posted on income mobility...not wage stagnation

Last edited by licence2kill : 07-23-2011 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 07-23-2011, 05:33 PM #109
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Exactly!



It must be if you still haven't done it after multiple posts of nothing but personal attacks.



uh no. you're changing the subject. you said i don't read the papers i cite (still waiting for evidence of that) even though its clear that either you don't read the **** you post or that you lack basic math skills (or possibly both). I don't want to be a dick and give people **** for mistakes, but if you're going to be a **** about everything then maybe you deserve to be brought down a peg. I think Frank might have been onto something when he called you out as being a troll.

btw, it has to do with the **** you posted on income mobility...not wage stagnation
So with that exactly, make a statement: Is the regulation necessary or is it unneeded? Do you or do you not support corporate welfare?

BTW, as for proof of you not reading the things you post, I'll take the graph on total growth and another link you just recently used that contradicted the supporting arguments you were making with it as support.

There's also the fact you almost always quote government numbers and projections, which are wrong, quite often.

If it's about income mobility than how is anything Frank said not conjecture or his own personal interpretation?

edit: roflmao nice job trollin buddy. Ooh you called me a ****, what's next, we remember who rode mah nuts?

doubleedit: Hiding from madgoat? Why? Can't handle all of the "being wrong"?

third edit: Nvm, this isn't even worth it. Going back and re-reading, the problem is you fundamentally don't understand the effect micro has on macro. All you know is 1950s keynesianism, which even Keynes thought was wack. I already told you how regulations have effected the welfare of the citizens of the US, now here's pages and pages of case studies, posts, articles, theories, etc.

http://innovationandgrowth.wordpress...ry/regulation/ A progressive opinion, so it's on your side of the spectrum!

The first two prove me right, the rest just kick you while you're down.

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Old 07-23-2011, 11:37 PM #110
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uh no. you're changing the subject. you said i don't read the papers i cite (still waiting for evidence of that) even though its clear that either you don't read the **** you post or that you lack basic math skills (or possibly both). I don't want to be a dick and give people **** for mistakes, but if you're going to be a **** about everything then maybe you deserve to be brought down a peg. I think Frank might have been onto something when he called you out as being a troll.
Frank112? Was unaware I agreed with Frank on something.
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Old 07-25-2011, 12:31 AM #111
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Frank also calls you a troll. So if Frank is a reputable source on the subject, guess that means you're calling yourself a troll.
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Old 07-25-2011, 01:24 AM #112
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Old 07-25-2011, 01:45 AM #113
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pretty much.

He just referenced you as someone who believes I'm a troll. Normally he lists you and 4 others off as part of my posse rofl.
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Old 07-25-2011, 01:50 AM #114
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apparently I'm your body guard? lolz. I totally remember why I stopped posting in here now.
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Old 07-25-2011, 01:59 AM #115
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I know right? Even funnier is how much the people with an economics background agree on things like the drug war, immigration, defense spending, regardless of personal biases. Cost-benefit analysis is so foreign to some people.
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Old 07-25-2011, 02:07 AM #116
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Why use logic when emotion is so much easier?
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Old 07-25-2011, 02:42 AM #117
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Okay Hume
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Old 08-04-2011, 11:28 AM #118
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Bad news guys looks like it might take Obama longer than 4 years to fix everything:

"I didn't say 'change we can believe in tomorrow.' Not change we can believe in next week. We knew this was going to take time because we've got this big, messy, tough democracy,"

Don't ya just hate it when a big messy democracy gets in the way of a good time?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vid...there_yet.html
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Old 08-08-2011, 12:30 AM #119
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No, its not my opinion, its fact. Healthcare shouldn't be supplied by the GOVT. Insurance is fine because its still voluntary-IE, you don't HAVE to get insurance, but chances are, it would benefit you. Govt. healthcare is BS because it forces everyone to pay for something they may not want and by forcing everyone to pay for the same thing, people with money are FORCED to subsidize those without. So much for the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, huh?
Really it's a fact? I'm still trying to figure out what formula I missed in physics that turns that opinion into a fact?

The reason Universal healthcare works for other nations is because they focus on preventative healthcare. America's system is ****ed because we let people go bankrupt on medical bills and then the government gets to foot the bill. It's absurd how much cheaper preventative care is in relation to fixing the issues that go unchecked.

The other reason why our health system is ****ed is end of life care. I have had to care for patients who should be in hospice who then had surgeries, ICU care, and mind boggling expensive medications just to live a month longer. The fact that our country thinks that spending ten to hundreds of thousands of dollars on care to extend a life that has very little potential to benefit from such care is just asinine.

Insurance suffers from this as much as the rest. Though insurance companies are heartless bastards, they also can't deny a procedure or medication if the doctor deems if beneficial to the patient and its technically covered within their plan. I don't know about you buy I wouldn't loose any sleep knowing that insurance rates could drop 20% if pacemakers, artificial joins, and unneeded procedures weren't done on 85 year old patients.

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Bad news guys looks like it might take Obama longer than 4 years to fix everything:

"I didn't say 'change we can believe in tomorrow.' Not change we can believe in next week. We knew this was going to take time because we've got this big, messy, tough democracy,"

Don't ya just hate it when a big messy democracy gets in the way of a good time?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vid...there_yet.html
Don't tell the GOP, I can't handle the good times Bush part deux would bring.
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Old 08-08-2011, 12:34 AM #120
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Bush wasn't good and Obama is worse.

I'm not pleased with either parties right now. Hence becoming Independent around a year ago.
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Old 08-08-2011, 04:46 AM #121
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pacemakers
I don't know what your personal experience is but pacemakers are HUGE issue these days.
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Old 08-08-2011, 08:07 AM #122
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Bush wasn't good and Obama is worse.

I'm not pleased with either parties right now. Hence becoming Independent around a year ago.
Really? The Bush/Chaney sucker punch of ****ing America was second to none. I don't think Obama has done enough to even be considered on their level of ****ing up..

(I don't like either)


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I don't know what your personal experience is but pacemakers are HUGE issue these days.
Americans are too sentimental. At 85 years old, when the patient is suffering from dementia, hasn't been able to walk for years, and has a dozen other health problems that is killing them... is the patent really gaining enough of a benefit to warrant the absurdly high cost. They are already past their given life expectancy, what waste that much money squeezing every last drop out of the bottle.
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Old 08-08-2011, 09:06 AM #123
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Originally Posted by rnauman821 View Post
Americans are too sentimental. At 85 years old, when the patient is suffering from dementia, hasn't been able to walk for years, and has a dozen other health problems that is killing them... is the patent really gaining enough of a benefit to warrant the absurdly high cost. They are already past their given life expectancy, what waste that much money squeezing every last drop out of the bottle.
I don't know the statistics, but are a lot of pacemakers installed in end-stage dementia patients?

My experience is that they may be installed in pre- or early state dementia patients when it's still very justifiable, but they extend life so long that dementia runs its complete course and you just rack up huge expenses caring for a person that is long gone mentally. The pacemaker can keep the body fairly healthy for possibly decades.

It's time for some sane guidelines on the ethics of stuff like that, and it would really help if the right wing wouldn't get all hysterical about pulling the plug on grandma. Grandma is long, long gone by the time these situations occur.
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Old 08-08-2011, 09:14 AM #124
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Really? The Bush/Chaney sucker punch of ****ing America was second to none. I don't think Obama has done enough to even be considered on their level of ****ing up..

(I don't like either)




Americans are too sentimental. At 85 years old, when the patient is suffering from dementia, hasn't been able to walk for years, and has a dozen other health problems that is killing them... is the patent really gaining enough of a benefit to warrant the absurdly high cost. They are already past their given life expectancy, what waste that much money squeezing every last drop out of the bottle.
lol, Obama got elected on the promise of change and he hasn't changed anything. He's just another bureaucrat whoring his power for votes. Weren't we supposed to be out of Iraq now? Yup. Aren't we currently involved in more military conflicts than we were when he was elected? Yup. Didn't Obama, the constitutional lawyer, piss on laws further by using some bs rhetoric to ignore the War Powers Act? Yup. Bush and Cheney sucker punched us then Obama kicked us in the balls is now peeing on us while we're down.
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Old 08-08-2011, 10:06 AM #125
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lol, Obama got elected on the promise of change and he hasn't changed anything.
He changed our debt rating.
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Old 08-08-2011, 11:20 AM #126
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lol, Obama got elected on the promise of change and he hasn't changed anything. He's just another bureaucrat whoring his power for votes. Weren't we supposed to be out of Iraq now? Yup. Aren't we currently involved in more military conflicts than we were when he was elected? Yup. Didn't Obama, the constitutional lawyer, piss on laws further by using some bs rhetoric to ignore the War Powers Act? Yup. Bush and Cheney sucker punched us then Obama kicked us in the balls is now peeing on us while we're down.
Time for the breakdown.

Bush:
Patriot Act - If someone was allowed to wipe their *** with the constitution, Bush did so with this single piece of legislation. Warrantless wire taps, holding citizens indefinitely without charges, warrantless GPS tracks on cell phones and cars.

Afghanistan War: $450 billion dollars in what has ended up being the longest war in US history. The goal was to capture/kill Osama Bin Laden. However he was killed in another country nearly ten years after in what was ultimately a CIA intelligence victory. 1700 service men dead and 13000 wounded.

Iraq War: $800 billion spent on the war effort (not accounting for funds allocated to the rebuilding effort) on the pretense of disarming a country of WMD's. To date not a single weapon has been found nor a single piece of evidence to claim otherwise. 4200 service men dead and 32000 wounded in an operation that had no goal.

Guantanamo Bay: Where do you hold people who aren't civilians and aren't soldiers? Who haven't committed a crime yet you are convinced must be guilty. Guantanamo Bay is the place to stay. Keep whoever you want for as long as you want, forget the Geneva convention... they don't count. And what about when the supreme court rules three separate times that they will be tried in a timely fashion in the federal court system? They don't matter, the GOP will just rush through legislation that bars them from these rights since they aren't on true US soil. What is the worst things that could happen if they were tried like any other criminal? Well they would get an attorney, who after passing law school has figured out that you can't be held without any evidence or even charges for that matter. They would also be given their Miranda rights which become pretty pesky. And to top it all off, you can't water board them and use advanced interrogation techniques... because you know if you did them on US soil you would be charged with a crime yourself.

Stem Cell Research: In 2001 Bush signed into law legislation which in effect stopped stem cell research. He further veto'd proposals to lift this ban in 2007. This action in effect stopped 8 years of medical advances and removed the most promising field the medical field has had in treating hundreds of diseases and conditions. It has been estimated that tens of millions world wide could have been treated with these advances.

No Child Left Behind: At one point this was the crown jewel for Bush. However in effect it sucked funding out of under performing schools that couldn't keep teachers to begin with. It turned public education into one large scantron testing facility. If you students scored well, you get more money. If they don't, we take money away. Ohhh and now that you have less money to work with, we expect you to bring up your scores next year. Even schools in Bush's home state of Texas have shown massive drops in graduation rates after the legislation took hold.

I can keep going if you would like.

-----

Now we have Obama:

Bail Out: He signed the recovery act. There is still no proof that it either avoided catastrophy or wrecked the country. For now we will assume the later. Even at that point... It still only cost america less than half of what both wars and their separate recovery budgets ran.

Guantanamo Bay: He has already confirmed what the supreme court has ruled, that the detainees will be tried federally and they currently have access to attorneys and given the same treatment in front of the court system as anyone else.

Stem Cell Ban: Obama lifted it.

Universal Health Care: He shifted funds from one public health to another while the same people will be treated. The only real changes are that approximately another million american households will have low cost insurance available, Insurance companies can no longer claim preexisting condition to block treatment, insurance companies will be legally and criminally accountable for denying treatment to qualifying patients who suffer injury or death because of the denial.

-----

I will agree that they both have **** ups however saying that Obama has done half as much to **** us is wrong.
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