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Old 10-27-2016, 08:00 AM #1
ironyusa
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My axe/mini bolt design



I call this the turbocharger bolt. It is designed specifically to have the effects of an underbore barrel without the need to risk the paint breaks. The turbocharger sits inside the bolt and is design to aid the pressure pulse that kicks open the poppet.

Last edited by ironyusa : 10-27-2016 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 10-27-2016, 10:30 AM #2
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Interesting. How much you selling em for?
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Old 10-27-2016, 10:48 AM #3
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I'm working on getting the quote right now.
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Old 10-27-2016, 11:36 AM #4
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Is that groove between the bolt sail o-rings similar to what I've seen in the New Designz bolt where the initial forward movement of the bolt is slow (to lower the impact on the ball) and then it speeds up? Also, is the bolt face flat to minimize rollback?
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Old 10-27-2016, 11:53 AM #5
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Several people have done the inset between the orings (violent series, NDZ, exalt). Doesn't really do all that much, but does reduce weight a little.

The bolt face is slightly concave with no point load at the center of the ball. It is needed for several reasons, but the primary one is that the turbocharger has to be supported somewhere. It actually threads into the bolt face and if you look at the render you can see the white part at the center which is the key feature of the bolt.

Last edited by ironyusa : 10-27-2016 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 10-27-2016, 05:17 PM #6
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Technically, shouldn't it be turbocharged? As it uses compressed air instead of mechanical energy to operate?
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Old 10-27-2016, 05:22 PM #7
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Technically, shouldn't it be turbocharged? As it uses compressed air instead of mechanical energy to operate?
Meh. That's what it was in the original file, but I changed it for you, sweety.

Last edited by ironyusa : 10-27-2016 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 10-28-2016, 09:39 AM #8
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Okay, so the paintball nerd in me is curious about this. What is the design principle behind this and what are its intended benefits?

Do you have any internal diagrams showing operation and airflow?
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Old 10-28-2016, 10:45 AM #9
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Okay, so the paintball nerd in me is curious about this. What is the design principle behind this and what are its intended benefits?

Do you have any internal diagrams showing operation and airflow?
Design principle is an appropriate application of the venturi effect (has little to do with the bolt face in this case), where the internal geometry of the bolt keeps the pressure behind the face higher than in front of it. On the axe/ mini, the poppet itself opens with a pressure delta being generated across the poppet itself. The restricted flow and reduction of expansion volume will improve the "timing" window of the valve event. Said another way, it will expand the tuning envelope.

There is no other axe bolt that operates on this concept and all others with maybe the exception of the boss bolt with the internal oring, actually narrow the tuning envelope and advance the firing sequence. That's why they tend to be less reliable or more susceptible to operational variability. Oddly, turbulence at the bolt face with pure annular flow does tend to be significantly quieter as well. So, the primary benefit is more tuning options/ reliability at more extreme tuning extents.

Last edited by ironyusa : 10-28-2016 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 10-28-2016, 09:11 PM #10
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but the real question is, does it come in pink?
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Old 10-28-2016, 10:57 PM #11
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but the real question is, does it come in pink?
Lol, honestly I'll probably get them in clear so people don't worry/complain as much about the inevitable scratches from the spring on the outside. (A trick borrowed from BLAST.)

I should have the quote back in about a week. I definitely plan on getting a sample made and plan to test a few small variations to maximize the benefits of this kit. I am absolutely confident it'll be an improvement over stock (which is better than almost every other aftermarket bolt).

Last edited by ironyusa : 10-28-2016 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 10-29-2016, 11:30 AM #12
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Meh. That's what it was in the original file, but I changed it for you, sweety.
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Old 10-29-2016, 02:13 PM #13
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Do you foresee any compatibility issues with Lurker's aftermarket poppets?
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Old 10-29-2016, 03:08 PM #14
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If a lurker poppet works with what you have now, there's no reason it wouldn't work with this as well. This bolt just helps improve the stock operating concept.
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Old 10-31-2016, 03:41 PM #15
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I expect to have quotes back very soon.


As I mentioned above, I plan on getting this in clear anodizing so I rendered it again with a more probable scheme:

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Old 10-31-2016, 10:19 PM #16
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Quote:
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Do you foresee any compatibility issues with Lurker's aftermarket poppets?
A restriction at the face increases the pulse on the poppet (backpressure). This means the poppet opens faster and is held open slightly longer.

If anything, this concept and the lighter poppet work well together. The greater opening force should easily achieve velocity at lower pressure, and any efficiency loss by using this mechanism (which it seems very few people care about anymore, to be honest) would be offset by the improved closing speed of a lighter poppet.

This concept is most similar to (but slightly superior to, because of the internal flow) the shocktech superfly bolt. You can actually see the port design is very similar.



The biggest reason not to pursue this type of concept is because the velocity limitation of the mini and axe both is the internal volume (in the frame). You can only go so low in pressure before running out of stored energy, and as such the benefit of systems that increase the poppet dwell artificially is somewhat limited.

This is analogous to other poppet based guns - one can get more velocity by increasing ram(mer) weight, impact, and lift to a point, but ultimately the shot volume caps those parameters.

As irony said, like all venturi bolts, it will be quiet.
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Old 11-01-2016, 06:06 AM #17
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To be clear, the major restriction IS NOT the face. At rest, the supercharger actually extends into the bolt guide. The major restriction is at the end of the guide.

Saying this is like the shocktech bolt is like saying the paragon is like the assault 80. Yeah, it has something of a "venturi" face, but the shocktech bolt lurker posted a picture of doesn't match the production units... They actually had a pressed in plate. Not to mention everything from the orange bolt, pooty and several others use a venturi face. It's an irrelevant comparison. If anything, the face geometry more resembles a luxe or PE, but in fact, is fashioned after BL pillow bolts that direct air to the outside edge of the ball. I prefer this air delivery style and through significant amounts of bolt testing have noted this to be the quietest face geometry. The other reason the face is shaped as it is... something has to support the turbocharger.

Funny thing about this concept is like I mentioned... It extends the tuning envelope. As such, you can run wider back cap settings with lower dwell. The restriction is exaggerated on the opening side of the cycle, so it's essentially a free opening aide. Add to that a reduction in expansion volume and you have something significant. So, yeah, you could tune this to run really low operating pressure or you could use it to help snap the stock poppet open quickly and reduce the dwell for a much better shot quality at slightly lower pressure.


As an aside, if you look at the ID of the stock axe bolt it necks down anyway. This was done intentionally to choke flow and there is also a flat edge to it. This bolt doesn't try to reinvent the wheel by changing the stock forces, but rather supplements them in a coherent fashion.

Last edited by ironyusa : 11-01-2016 at 07:29 AM.
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Old 11-01-2016, 06:56 AM #18
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You can't see it very well in this pic, but if you look closely you can see silver inside the red shocktech bolt's face.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3973967


Also, the stock bolt has a circular flow area of ~.1134" whereas this bolt has an annular area of ~.122" at the face. Lurker's assumption that there is restriction at the face is flat-out wrong.

Last edited by ironyusa : 11-01-2016 at 07:11 AM.
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Old 11-01-2016, 09:19 AM #19
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...Because the area of 4 holes with an area 7% larger than one hole flows more? C'mon.

Look, I like the design, I never said I didn't. In fact, I'll state straightaway that I have no doubt that a design from you would be a better drop in design than my own eigenbolt. I've said in the past that for people not concerned with the utmost performance, stock or Boss options are probably better there as well. I've always felt the utmost performance is a more interesting question, which is why I'm a terrible businessman and a mediocre engineer.

But I'm not wrong about that face design being a restriction.

My point is that a free opening aide doesn't matter as much as an underbore, because an underbore is a TRUE efficiency gain, because you literally use less air to accomplish the same velocity due to less energy/gas leakage. This is because the axe is a volume limited system at desirable low pressures.

This is the same reason I produce a bolt with an optimized flow path.
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Old 11-01-2016, 10:05 AM #20
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...Because the area of 4 holes with an area 7% larger than one hole flows more? C'mon.

Look, I like the design, I never said I didn't. In fact, I'll state straightaway that I have no doubt that a design from you would be a better drop in design than my own eigenbolt. I've said in the past that for people not concerned with the utmost performance, stock or Boss options are probably better there as well. I've always felt the utmost performance is a more interesting question, which is why I'm a terrible businessman and a mediocre engineer.

But I'm not wrong about that face design being a restriction.

My point is that a free opening aide doesn't matter as much as an underbore, because an underbore is a TRUE efficiency gain, because you literally use less air to accomplish the same velocity due to less energy/gas leakage. This is because the axe is a volume limited system at desirable low pressures.

This is the same reason I produce a bolt with an optimized flow path.
I'm really not to interested in continuing this discussion nor am I interested in posting my data or detailed design bits yet. Let's leave it at this... I have tuned hundreds of axes. Tons have been sent to me because people couldn't get their lurker stuff to work. I helped you with the clamshell spacer design to make axe installs more reliable. I am not trying to emulate your engineering philosophy or copy your designs and you know I have the utmost he-spect for you. I want to give the community a bolt that takes what the axe/ mini does and does it better. It's about drop-in reliable performance. I'll let the results be my guide. If I'm wrong, we learn. If I'm right, the community benefits.
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Old 11-01-2016, 10:17 AM #21
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The respect is mutual! Excited to see where it goes, learning is where it's at.
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