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Old 08-02-2012, 08:55 PM #1723
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To me the verses on infant baptism are the sort that don't show any clear guidelines (and are rather debatable), and given the other verses where there are clear guidelines always speak of being baptised after becoming a Christian, I would therefore lean that way.

That said I don't have any specific problem with it. It is what it is. I'd rather go after the various clear heresies based on scriptures taken wildly out of context.
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Old 08-02-2012, 10:48 PM #1724
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Originally Posted by vijil View Post
To me the verses on infant baptism are the sort that don't show any clear guidelines (and are rather debatable), and given the other verses where there are clear guidelines always speak of being baptised after becoming a Christian, I would therefore lean that way.

That said I don't have any specific problem with it. It is what it is. I'd rather go after the various clear heresies based on scriptures taken wildly out of context.
Actually no where in the Bible does it clearly show that adults are to only be baptized and so I think it is debatable both ways depending on how we interpret scripture which therein lies the problem. Various interpretations of Scripture.

But I do agree with you vijil in that there are other more "pressing" issues or topics or even heresies that we should focus on.
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:20 PM #1725
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you guys took my breath away with bringing up the question...I thought it was dead in the water haha
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Old 08-03-2012, 11:05 PM #1726
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Well, yeah, though baptism is always regarded in scripture as something that is done post-conversion *besides* the examples given where a household would be baptised. It's not clear to me that that meant infant baptism - we don't know that there were babies involved, nor whether "all his family" etc. would implicitly refer to children as well. It's just not clear at all, like many doctrines. What is clear is that Christians were baptised soon after conversion. My own denomination always baptise by full immersion, and always after a confession of faith. That's what we've decided is most consistent with scripture. To us, baptism is a symbolic and public declaration of faith, and therefore infant baptism would be pointless, while sprinkling just doesn't seem to fit the scriptural death/rebirth motif near as well.

Again though I have to stress (and I think my own congregation would largely agree) that I see no real harm in it so long as you're not assuming that somehow makes the child more holy or more likely to live a Godly life - it's much the same as how we do infant dedication, which involves basically praying for the child as a group. That's also not specifically in scripture though I can't think of anything wrong with it!

Such a tiny details issue really. I'm much more worried by neo-Charismatic and/or "progessive" (ie. post Christian) theology these days than I am by the details of any given ritual.

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Old 08-04-2012, 12:28 AM #1727
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My own denomination always baptise by full immersion, and always after a confession of faith. That's what we've decided is most consistent with scripture. To us, baptism is a symbolic and public declaration of faith, and therefore infant baptism would be pointless, while sprinkling just doesn't seem to fit the scriptural death/rebirth motif near as well.
I think that's were we different. As my Church views Baptism as a Sacrament and therefore special graces are bestowed upon the person who receives such Sacrament. Which includes the remission of sin both original and actual. The latter being someone who is of the age of reason to have committed sins.

Again, I think that there are many instances in scripture that support infant baptism. One in particular is the fact that Paul notes that baptism replaces circumcision (COL 2:11-12) and this verse is really a good point to start because in the Old Law it was pretty much infants who were circumcised because it was rare for adults to be circumcised since there weren't that many converts to Judaism.

If you think about it this comparison between who could receive baptism and circumcision is an appropriate one. In the Old Testament, if a man wanted to become a Jew, he had to believe in the God of Israel and be circumcised. In the New Testament, if one wants to become a Christian, one must believe in God and Jesus and be baptized. In the Old Testament, those born into Jewish households could be circumcised in anticipation of the Jewish faith in which they would be raised. Thus in the New Testament, those born in Christian households can be baptized in anticipation of the Christian faith in which they will be raised. The pattern is the same: If one is an adult, one must have faith before receiving the rite of membership; if one is a child too young to have faith, one may be given the rite of membership in the knowledge that one will be raised in the faith. This is the basis of Paul’s reference to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ"—that is, the Christian equivalent of circumcision.
(Taken from http://www.catholic.com/tracts/infant-baptism)

Anyways just thought I share my Church's stance on the matter.

Could you give me an example of the "post-Christian" theology you were mentioning? Maybe this is something we can discuss.
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Old 08-04-2012, 05:45 PM #1728
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Today in walmart I had to stop and take a double take. In one of the racks of tee's I saw a tee-shirt that had HK on it. I was like wht !!??

Then I read the other shirts.... Hello Kitty.
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:44 PM #1729
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Again, Paul's statement in Col isn't clear doctrinally - it's one (of many) verses in the Bible where a doctrine will be based on a mild inference or slight implication. There are plenty of them in all churches including my own! Often these borderline types of doctrines cause the biggest arguments which is a shame.

That said we're obviously going to differ on things like sacraments.

"post-Christian" refers mostly to the progressive Christianity movement. The Episcopalian council have been so thoroughly infiltrated by progressives that they can no longer agree on simple key statements like "Jesus is Lord" or reject the idea that all humans are gods. Progressive Christianity is what happens when a Christian becomes a secular humanist and rejects all the core ideas of the faith, but still somehow wants to be called a Christian and have influence over things like core doctrine and theology. It's both sad and hilarious at the same time - as a result, the episcopalian church in the US as a whole (with obvious exceptions in individual congregations) has become a laughing stock at best, a force for evil at worst.
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Old 08-05-2012, 11:40 PM #1730
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@vijil - I think I know what your getting at. To put it in a more layman's term....basically what we've been seeing is the attitude of we can do whatever we want, with whomever we want, as long as it makes us feel good and we are not "hurting" anyone else approach towards Christianity.
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Old 08-09-2012, 05:55 AM #1731
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Alright so for my denomination we baptized children. We don't dedicate them like Baptist churches we give them a full baptism. Why? Because in a dedication service the focus attention is on the actions of the parents,. Infant baptism, on the other hand, focuses our attention and our hearts upon God's action, which we receive through faith alone. The baptism of children teaches that our children are sinful and that they, along with the congregation, need to trust Christ alone for cleansing from theirs sins in order to be justified. Whereas dedication looks back and says, "We gave you to the Lord," baptism looks back and says, "The lord gave himself to you in the promise of washing away your sins." Whereas dedication says, "We will raise you to trust the Lord," baptism says, "The Holy Spirit will raise you up from death to life to serve the Lord." The baptism of covenant children is the best dedication service possible, because God promises to dedicate himself to our children. We are saved by Grace, baptism is a reflection of that because it is not upon our own actions that saves us but rather the covenant that God himself establishes. So whether you get baptized as a child or as a teen or as an adult the salvation is through Grace alone. Even though baptism is a public display, it is more so a public display of God's covenant of Grace, what God has done and will do for us, rather than a statement of our own belief. Now "we" believe that this covenant was shown in the Old Testament through circumcision, it is now shown through baptism. Baptism is one of two of the only sacraments we have in the Reformed Presb. church, the second one being the Lord's table.
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Old 08-09-2012, 06:05 AM #1732
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Forgot to mention...Jesus instituted baptism after his resurrection and just before his ascension into heaven in Matthew 28. Along with teaching the nations, baptism was to be a perpetual ordinance, as Jesus promised to be with his church "to the end of the age" Matt 28:20. It was given for the benefit of this New Covenant people, just as circumcision had been given tot he people of God int he Old Testament Gen. 17. Like circumcision, baptism is the visible sign of initiation into a covenant relationship with the Lord. Notice how this is shown in Matthew 28:19, as "making disciples" is defined with tow verbs, "baptizing" and "teaching." One is made a disciple, that is, a follower of Christ, by baptism and instruction.

Just wanted to stir the pot, hadn't had a conversation like this on here for a little bit.

Next we should talk about Romans 1:17-2 hahahahaha
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Old 08-09-2012, 04:28 PM #1733
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Forgot to mention...Jesus instituted baptism after his resurrection and just before his ascension into heaven in Matthew 28. Along with teaching the nations, baptism was to be a perpetual ordinance, as Jesus promised to be with his church "to the end of the age" Matt 28:20. It was given for the benefit of this New Covenant people, just as circumcision had been given tot he people of God int he Old Testament Gen. 17. Like circumcision, baptism is the visible sign of initiation into a covenant relationship with the Lord. Notice how this is shown in Matthew 28:19, as "making disciples" is defined with tow verbs, "baptizing" and "teaching." One is made a disciple, that is, a follower of Christ, by baptism and instruction.

Just wanted to stir the pot, hadn't had a conversation like this on here for a little bit.

Next we should talk about Romans 1:17-2 hahahahaha
Glad you stir the pot a bit cause this thread kinda went quiet.

Matthew 28:20 is a great verse and I use it a lot when discussing about the unity among Christians.

We have similar beliefs when it comes to baptism and I'm curious by what you mean the "Lord's Supper." Any ways regarding Romans 1:17-2 at first I got confused but then I think your pointing to the second part of the verse or Romans 1:17b?
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Old 08-09-2012, 07:11 PM #1734
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So, not to hijack the current topic, but I'm pretty sure I'm in one of those "pray of peace, get surrounded by chaos" moments, and I could use some prayer, right about now.

A little backstory: I had to give up paintball when I was in college, since the sport was quite costly for a kid who only earned minimum wage, +$2/hr, if that. I finally graduate and get a nice job when I decide to hop back in the sport. I shop around for a while, wait, pay down bills and such, when I finally spot a good scenario/milsim marker for cheap. I swoop in and next paycheck, I send the money. Well, that turned into an ordeal, so in the interim, I go to ebay, since it's "secure." I pick up a cheapy little Ion, supposedly with a virtue board and some other good ups, just no reg. No problem, it's cheap, and I picked up other upgrades off the BST. Perfect.

Well, the TM15 comes and it's in decent shape, but some parts are missing... oh boy. I'll wait for the Ion. That came today... and dear sweet ball on the wall, this gun would have never been able to work. The breech screw is rusted halfway in, the drop-forward isn't even screwed on right, the board is stock, but the capacitor has major damage, the eyes are gunked/rusted in place, and the bolt hasn't seen a decent lube in at least 2 years.

The ebay seller's policy? "No refunds/returns."

Moral of the story? I probably should have waited even longer to get back into paintball. I know that it was my impatience that lead me to these purchases, and now I have to struggle to resolve them. Man, I need patience, both in how I handle my finances and in dealing with these people >.<
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Old 08-09-2012, 08:48 PM #1735
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while sorry to here that GhostJedai.....sometimes it's not just patience but common sense. when a deal seems to good ot be true chances are it is. I try to make sure I trust the seller whenever doing a BST on here and other forums. Good feedback and actual communication via phone is key in my book. As for the impatient part....that's where I ask God for guidance. I remember once I was shopping to buy a car for my wife as she needed a new car and we could use a new family vehicle. So I had looked at a the various vans out there and their pretty pricey. I found two that were in my budget and after research I had narrowed my choice down to this one vehicle. However, my wife had seen another vehicle that was more than what I wanted to budget for. Sure we could technically afford it but we had set our budget. So I pulled into this dealership to check this vehicle out and low and behold it started to rain. So I had to wait in my car. While waiting I pulled out my daily scripture book and low and behold the reading for the day was: Matthew 6:19-21. So I closed my book started my car and drove off. The next day I worked out a deal on the other vehicle and was able to negotiate a great price and get some of the aftermarkets for free. We just need to seek God in all things and trust the Holy Spirit for guidance.
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Old 08-09-2012, 08:50 PM #1736
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Also...just to add....my wife absolutely loves her car and says it was the perfect fit for her and our children. God's ways are truly better than ours.
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Old 08-09-2012, 10:25 PM #1737
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while sorry to here that GhostJedai.....sometimes it's not just patience but common sense. when a deal seems to good ot be true chances are it is. I try to make sure I trust the seller whenever doing a BST on here and other forums. Good feedback and actual communication via phone is key in my book. As for the impatient part....that's where I ask God for guidance. I remember once I was shopping to buy a car for my wife as she needed a new car and we could use a new family vehicle. So I had looked at a the various vans out there and their pretty pricey. I found two that were in my budget and after research I had narrowed my choice down to this one vehicle. However, my wife had seen another vehicle that was more than what I wanted to budget for. Sure we could technically afford it but we had set our budget. So I pulled into this dealership to check this vehicle out and low and behold it started to rain. So I had to wait in my car. While waiting I pulled out my daily scripture book and low and behold the reading for the day was: Matthew 6:19-21. So I closed my book started my car and drove off. The next day I worked out a deal on the other vehicle and was able to negotiate a great price and get some of the aftermarkets for free. We just need to seek God in all things and trust the Holy Spirit for guidance.
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Also...just to add....my wife absolutely loves her car and says it was the perfect fit for her and our children. God's ways are truly better than ours.
Actually, the same thing happened when I bought my first car... about 8 years ago, now. I wanted a hot street racer, my dad said I couldn't afford it (long story about the money). Ended up finding a nice little 2-door Saturn, and 100k miles and no major mechanical issues later, I'm pretty happy.

You're right about having common sense, but that's also where my plea for patience comes in. If I had let patience overwhelm me, instead of my desire to buy things, I wouldn't be in this predicament. The men in my family have quite a long history of financial trouble, with me seemingly at the nexus. I was lucky enough to go to a state school leaving me to graduate with very little student loans, but going from a lack to plenty can have very strange effects on one's psyche. This is especially true since I grew up in what I would call a strong Christian house. We struggled to get by, but God would usually provide, though only just enough to get by. I know much of that was caused by decisions we made, but it's hard to separate that from your spiritual walk.

I'm just glad I can make small mistakes and learn from them, instead of large ones and continue in ignorance (as I kind of used to do, lol). God IS good, even when we choose our own unwise decisions.
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Old 08-10-2012, 05:55 AM #1738
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Welcome to the club Ghost, I once sent money to a guy on Ebay...yep all 300 bucks got lost by that scammer. Listen, I know how you feel. I used to be an impatenit person but that is certainly one thing that God has changed after I started to walk with him. When we grow up we start to learn how mind and our body...of course I have no idea how old you are but you sound like the early 20's. My best advice to you is have a goal in mind for you money. Let your money work for you rather than having to work for your money. So if you are tempted to spend money you don't have or buy things that are not needed WALK AWAY QUICKLY. In other words have separate bank accounts if you need to so that you can budget. Yes the evil budget is by far the hardest thing to maintain but you are talking to someone who is 28 years old completely debt free and I have saved enough money to pay for my masters without taking any loans. I made budget that included everything I wanted to spend money on. If your family really has money issues break that chain brother break it quickly. It is a foolish man to think having money wont help you be happy. Money can't buy happiness but it sure helps when you know you have money for the rest of the year to pay for rent, electric bill etc etc.

I like what RLN says about prayer because most people don't put the two together, life and prayer. Every action should be supported by prayer. God does want us to take the initiative on certain things but he wants us to talk with him about our life. I know when I think to myself, "Oh this isn't a big deal let me make my own decision" that's when I mess up because I"m not relaying on God for guidance. Long and short of it, pray from the heart, which can mean short and to the point prayers, and pray for the means to live your life. I remember hating to run while training for the Army physical test. I had to run my 2 mile under 17:33...my best time was over 18...I was failing. I prayed this prayer, "God if you have called me to this then help me love what I must do to do it." First graded 2 mile run I ran 14:27...just four months after I prayed that prayer...a few times. An awesome book about prayer is: A Praying life by can't remember.
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Old 08-11-2012, 06:35 AM #1739
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Hey guys! It's been a while since I posted anything lol.

Just a little update on my grandpa. He is out of the hospital, and has been in a assisted living home until yesterday. He is now up to almost 130lbs (he wieghed 118 when he checked into the hospital). He has also quite smoking (using nicorete) and drinking! He also is more lively and smiling. He also went for almost a 1/2 mile walk last night (uphill one way). Just praising God for his health and continued recovery.

Also, I'm moving out today! / mixed emotions haha. But I'm moving into an apartment up near school. So I feel like this is the official day that I move out from home. I have my shoes tied, and I'm wearing underwear, and I packed my bible, am I forgetting anything?
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Old 08-11-2012, 12:08 PM #1740
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brother that is great about the grandpa! Always glad to see the people we love improve in their health. I hope you are wearing clean underwear...never know what might happen. Congrats on the move though, hope it goes well.


anybody want to start a pro team?
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:07 PM #1741
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Just came off a 3 man mech tourney win. My team pretty much sweeped the tourney.....although it wasn't that big of a win considering most of the teams were relatively new to tourney play and came to the event with spyders or tippmans. My team on the other hand, the three of us had autocockers, well timed, shooting smooth, and with underbore barrels. It was pretty much one sided that one of my guys eventually switched to his pump. After the tourney we hung out with the other teams and just encouraged them to continue practicing and that they'll get better and beat us old men....hehe.
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Old 08-12-2012, 09:13 PM #1742
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RLN brother I love it. Wish I had a mech cocker still...been thinking of getting one recently but also trying to get another rare timmy. Miss the tourney ball.
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:11 AM #1743
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anybody want to start a pro team?
yes. Move went well! Just got internet!
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