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Old 06-10-2011, 02:14 AM #211
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thats all good and fine, but there is something in the bible pertaining to the importance of human life. i feel like you guys are ignoring that. *i recognize that is on man*
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Old 06-10-2011, 02:21 AM #212
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There's not really - at least not in the modern sense. There is the idea that God "doesn't desire that anyone should perish"(ie. hell), and loves us, but that's about as far as it goes. That shouldn't be taken to mean that He'll stop anything bad happening if it's not in the overall plan.
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Old 06-10-2011, 09:05 AM #213
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If you think about it, God destroying evil would in a sense destroy free will. right?
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Old 06-10-2011, 09:41 AM #214
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Old 06-10-2011, 01:18 PM #215
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thats all good and fine, but there is something in the bible pertaining to the importance of human life. i feel like you guys are ignoring that. *i recognize that is on man*
You're right, Twitch. There is a [lot] of value on human life. So much value, in fact that Jesus gave His life that we might have life and have it [abundantly].
Don't think for a second that God is up there thinking:"Oh well, they chose that path!" 'Cause He's not. God [IS] Love, Twitch, and He can't help but grieve over such loss.
However, He knows that He can turn things around and use it for the good of those that love Him; that seek His face...even if they don't know or do it yet. (I'm referring to 2Corinthians1:-4:
" Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. ")

Countless times peoples lives have been tragically ended, only to be used of God to turn hearts toward Him.
Like the Bible teaches about Jesus; One must that die that all may live. (See John 11:51)
So I ask you to judge this for yourself: If God loves us so much, that He gave us His only begotten Son; that whosoever would believe on Him would not perish but rahter, have everlasting life. Who are we to say that He can't sacrifice another life for the sake of many lives? He is, after our Creator.
That's like the pot telling the potter, "Hey don't do that; no stop, you're doing it all wrong!"
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Old 06-10-2011, 04:39 PM #216
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Originally Posted by shooteronyour6 View Post
You're right, Twitch. There is a [lot] of value on human life. So much value, in fact that Jesus gave His life that we might have life and have it [abundantly].
Don't think for a second that God is up there thinking:"Oh well, they chose that path!" 'Cause He's not. God [IS] Love, Twitch, and He can't help but grieve over such loss.
However, He knows that He can turn things around and use it for the good of those that love Him; that seek His face...even if they don't know or do it yet. (I'm referring to 2Corinthians1:-4:
" Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. ")

Countless times peoples lives have been tragically ended, only to be used of God to turn hearts toward Him.
Like the Bible teaches about Jesus; One must that die that all may live. (See John 11:51)
So I ask you to judge this for yourself: If God loves us so much, that He gave us His only begotten Son; that whosoever would believe on Him would not perish but rahter, have everlasting life. Who are we to say that He can't sacrifice another life for the sake of many lives? He is, after our Creator.
That's like the pot telling the potter, "Hey don't do that; no stop, you're doing it all wrong!"
no, it's really, really not. this is a horrible argument, and I believe it is pretty indefensible structurally.
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Old 06-10-2011, 06:36 PM #217
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Then produce your argument?
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Old 06-10-2011, 10:15 PM #218
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no, it's really, really not. this is a horrible argument, and I believe it is pretty indefensible structurally.
Gen 1:31 " And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good...."








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Old 06-10-2011, 10:27 PM #219
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Then produce your argument?
Jesus sacrificing himself =/ God "sacrificing" (ie killing) other people. In fact, it's the exact opposite.

At the very least, it shows a lack of understanding/acceptance of the Trinity, because it is saying that GOD sacrificed JESUS, as if He were a separate person. It implies a choice by God to have Jesus killed, not a choice by God to sacrifice HIMSELF on the cross.

Also, again without even debating the actual arguments, he is committing a post hoc logical fallacy. The effect is dictating the cause.

If a family is killed by a drunk driver, and that's the end of the story, well it will be the rare christian who would argue that God encourages drink drivers to kill families.

however, according to shooter, if a family is killed by a drunk driver and it leads to the driver giving his life to Christ and leading many others to Jesus, magically now not only is it a good thing that he killed the family, but God actually caused it to happen.

Genesis 50:20 (NIV)

You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives

----

I don't read this as "you thought it was evil but God was guiding it all along to be good". Instead, I read it as a loving God who ALWAYS intends for good for us, and can rend good ends even out of the most horrific of man-caused tragedies.

What Joseph's brothers did to him was 100%, without a doubt, an evil act. It was clearly of their own choosing and intended for ill. That God brought such amazing goodness out of it is a testament to His power, knowledge, and LOVE.

However, let us drop this subject, shall we? I wanted to present my point of view and I feel I have adequately, though obviously not comprehensibly, rebutted this argument as far as the sake of debate goes. I don't feel further discussion will be fruitful, and I understand just from reading a few posts that shooter and I most likely disagree on many points. That doesn't mean I don't love him and his heart, it's just that I've rarely heard of a single post on a message board changing someone's mind. I'm glad we both stated our case, and everyone here is grown up enough to make up their own mind. The important thing we agree on is God is Good, All the Time. Amen.

If you are interested in further reading, I believe one of the best scholars currently working on the topic of theodicy(problem of evil) is Greg Boyd. "The God Who Risks" is a wonderful argument for something along the lines of what I have laid out here.

I'll end with one last passage, stressing unity in Christ above relatively minor arguments of faith.

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” John 13:34-35(ESV)

Haha sorry, this reminded me of a song.

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Old 06-11-2011, 01:34 AM #220
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good post hsilman
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Old 06-11-2011, 11:49 AM #221
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Old 06-11-2011, 03:47 PM #222
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thats all good and fine, but there is something in the bible pertaining to the importance of human life. i feel like you guys are ignoring that. *i recognize that is on man*
There are several references to the value of human life in the Bible. One of the first is actually in Exodus when Pharaoh orders that the Hebrew midwives to kill all the male babies they help to be born. However, the mid wives did not execute the orders because they feared God. God does desire and plan good things to happen to those he has saved. He waste nothing in our lives either. What I'm trying to say is the fact that even though something terrible happens that does not mean God wanted it to happen even though he did provision the event. It is somewhat confusing but I do not believe that everything that happens is from God's direct will. God does not want any of his children to suffer, however, things happens because we live in a sinful world. God still sustains and God still edifies in the midst of stormy times. One of my favorite parts in the gospel is when Jesus feeds the five thousand. He tells his 12 to pick up the pieces of food and put them in baskets. Like I said, God leaves nothing to waste...even the very crums of our life he will use to bring glory to his name. Some how God will use the most terrible instance to further his kingdom...and that is why he is an awesome God because I can take comfort in knowing that the trials I have in my life were known to God and I will praise him in advance for his future deliverance of my situation.
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Old 06-11-2011, 04:08 PM #223
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There are several references to the value of human life in the Bible. One of the first is actually in Exodus when Pharaoh orders that the Hebrew midwives to kill all the male babies they help to be born. However, the mid wives did not execute the orders because they feared God. God does desire and plan good things to happen to those he has saved. He waste nothing in our lives either. What I'm trying to say is the fact that even though something terrible happens that does not mean God wanted it to happen even though he did provision the event. It is somewhat confusing but I do not believe that everything that happens is from God's direct will. God does not want any of his children to suffer, however, things happens because we live in a sinful world. God still sustains and God still edifies in the midst of stormy times. One of my favorite parts in the gospel is when Jesus feeds the five thousand. He tells his 12 to pick up the pieces of food and put them in baskets. Like I said, God leaves nothing to waste...even the very crums of our life he will use to bring glory to his name. Some how God will use the most terrible instance to further his kingdom...and that is why he is an awesome God because I can take comfort in knowing that the trials I have in my life were known to God and I will praise him in advance for his future deliverance of my situation.
Very well put, Procy. "May The Holy Spirit open their eyes that they behold the wonderful truth of the Bible and lean not on their own understanding. But rather, acknowledge Him in all His wonderous glory and even humble them before His wonderful throne of Grace-while it may be found! As it is written, there's is appointed unto man once to die and then comes the judgement!"

The irony is that they're being given some wonderful scipture out of God's word, yet they're choosing to lean on their own understanding...and wondering why these things happen. Like it's God's fault. Here they are being given His Word of assurance, yet they're mocking it...is it any wonder???
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Old 06-11-2011, 04:18 PM #224
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Very well put, Procy. "May The Holy Spirit open their eyes that they behold the wonderful truth of the Bible and lean not on their own understanding. But rather, acknowledge Him in all His wonderous glory and even humble them before His wonderful throne of Grace-while it may be found! As it is written, there's is appointed unto man once to die and then comes the judgement!"

The irony is that they're being given some wonderful scipture out of God's word, yet they're choosing to lean on their own understanding...and wondering why these things happen. Like it's God's fault. Here they are being given His Word of assurance, yet they're mocking it...is it any wonder???
who is "they"? I sincerely hope you didn't get out of my response that I am "mocking" scripture.
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Old 06-11-2011, 06:33 PM #225
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Maybe because you said this:
"Jesus sacrificing himself =/ God "sacrificing" (ie killing) other people. In fact, it's the exact opposite.
At the very least, it shows a lack of understanding/acceptance of the Trinity, because it is saying that GOD sacrificed JESUS, as if He were a separate person. It implies a choice by God to have Jesus killed <although THIS IS EXACTLY RIGHT), not a choice by God to sacrifice HIMSELF on the cross."

Sir, have you ever read the Old Testament? How about the New? Psalms 40:7;Hebrews 10:5-10
And do me a favor, do not put words into my mouth. Please? I did not say:
"however, according to shooter, if a family is killed by a drunk driver and it leads to the driver giving his life to Christ and leading many others to Jesus, magically now not only is it a good thing that he killed the family, but God actually caused it to happen."
What I did say is:
"However, He knows that He can turn things around and use it for the good of those that love Him; that seek His face...even if they don't know or do it yet. (I'm referring to 2Corinthians1:3-4)
" Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.")
Countless times peoples lives have been tragically ended, only to be used of God to turn hearts toward Him
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Old 06-12-2011, 10:22 AM #226
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Good morning everyone! I hope everyone has a great morning at church. I'll be praying for everyone.
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:56 PM #227
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Prayer for fallen officers family

On June 6th they celebrated their anniversary, her side of the family reconciled, she was nine months pregnant.Then he went to work.
On June 6th they celebrated their anniversary, her side of the family reconciled, she was nine months pregnant.Then he went to work.
http://www.uticaod.com/lindsey/x1379332617
Wife went into labor, son born safe at 10+ pounds.
At the funeral tomorrow, in the civic center, because of the crowds expected, he will be laid to rest.
Pray for Pastor Kyle. He helped raise the young lady, married them, and now will have a part in the funeral service. Governor, congressmen, senators and other state officials will be there. Pray that the Gospel is not only preached faithfully, but also clearly understood by all hearing it.
Wife went into labor, son born safe at 10+ pounds.
At the funeral tomorrow, in the civic center, because of the crowds expected, he will be laid to rest.
Pray for Pastor Kyle. He helped raise the young lady, married them, and now will have a part in the funeral service. Governor, congressmen, senators and other state officials will be there. Pray that the Gospel is not only preached faithfully, but also clearly understood by all hearing it.
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Old 06-12-2011, 02:01 PM #228
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Old 06-12-2011, 02:15 PM #229
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Maybe because you said this:
"Jesus sacrificing himself =/ God "sacrificing" (ie killing) other people. In fact, it's the exact opposite.
At the very least, it shows a lack of understanding/acceptance of the Trinity, because it is saying that GOD sacrificed JESUS, as if He were a separate person. It implies a choice by God to have Jesus killed <although THIS IS EXACTLY RIGHT), not a choice by God to sacrifice HIMSELF on the cross."

Sir, have you ever read the Old Testament? How about the New? Psalms 40:7;Hebrews 10:5-10
And do me a favor, do not put words into my mouth. Please? I did not say:
"however, according to shooter, if a family is killed by a drunk driver and it leads to the driver giving his life to Christ and leading many others to Jesus, magically now not only is it a good thing that he killed the family, but God actually caused it to happen."
What I did say is:
"However, He knows that He can turn things around and use it for the good of those that love Him; that seek His face...even if they don't know or do it yet. (I'm referring to 2Corinthians1:3-4)
" Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.")
Countless times peoples lives have been tragically ended, only to be used of God to turn hearts toward Him
thank you for your response. I'm sorry you feel this way about me. I love you, and your heart for God. I hope the holy spirit continues to bless you with guidance and understanding.

just for your information, I am as Paul once said, circumcised on the eighth day, of the people Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin. I was born a jew, and remain a jew. I am sure I have studied the old testament more than most christians. I spent the first 24 years of my life studying it. Just so you know I do not come to my theology lightly. That's all.

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Old 06-12-2011, 03:39 PM #230
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Hey krew, if you all could keep my church in your prayers it would be much appreciated. Long story short, our pastor did something bad, and now our church is probably going to split. It's a sad day for me, I've known him for most of my life, and I stand behind him, but everything is being handled completely wrong.
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Old 06-12-2011, 05:21 PM #231
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Hey krew, if you all could keep my church in your prayers it would be much appreciated. Long story short, our pastor did something bad, and now our church is probably going to split. It's a sad day for me, I've known him for most of my life, and I stand behind him, but everything is being handled completely wrong.
Sounds like something that happened to my church a few years ago I think around 2008. Our pastors wife cheated on him and they got a divorce and he pretty much just walked out on the church without letting anyone know which was sad because everyone loved him and he was a awesome preacher but now I have little / no respect for him. Him and my grandpa were like best friends, they hunted together for years. When my grandpa was really sick and dieing he wanted to see him and tony (the pastor) never called or visited him in the hospital. then all of a sudden when my grandpa passed he wanted to preach his funeral but my grandma said no and my current pastor preached it. But anyways when he left our church we had no pastor and our church was going down hill and everyone was getting mad at each other arguing about which new pastor to hire and no one could agree on one. Finally we found our current pastor the was currently in texas or TN i forgot and everyone agreed he was the one. He is now the current pastor and I think our church is better / stronger then ever. I'll def. be praying for your church.
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