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Old 03-17-2011, 04:20 PM #1
bobfromaccounting
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Icarus




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Old 03-17-2011, 07:31 PM #2
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Gee that looks like a "insert marker name here" had sex with a "insert marker name here".

Hot.
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Old 03-17-2011, 09:18 PM #3
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Interesting layout. What is the basic operation?
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Old 03-17-2011, 11:43 PM #4
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closed bolt fool!
Air fills through a step in the bore on the second stage of the bolt return, and through the poppit inside the bolt and the rear cartridge after the noid is "engaged" (i.e. At rest.). Air is cutoff via check valve in poppit when solenoid is activated (turned off). It has half a quickswitch in the grip, and it has 3in^3 of dump chamber.

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Old 03-18-2011, 02:04 PM #5
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Holy poop man, 3 cu.in of dump is erm... a lot more than you need?
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Old 03-24-2011, 11:48 AM #6
WYRViNX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitlebug View Post
Holy poop man, 3 cu.in of dump is erm... a lot more than you need?
Isnít the size of the dump chamber, inversely proportional to the operating pressure?
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Old 03-24-2011, 01:02 PM #7
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Isnít the size of the dump chamber, inversely proportional to the operating pressure?
That's the generally accepted principle. But even at 1 cu.in you really only need about 200psi.
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Old 03-24-2011, 01:11 PM #8
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A 3cu.in dump chamber would have an operating pressure in the 60-70psi range... That is a massive dump chamber.
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Old 03-24-2011, 01:32 PM #9
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Quote:
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A 3cu.in dump chamber would have an operating pressure in the 60-70psi range... That is a massive dump chamber.
I would never run a marker at that low of a pressure. Looking at the Nova, which is a dump style marker it runs on about 90psi and is incredibly inefficient.

I really do believe that 200psi is right inside the sweet spot.
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:15 PM #10
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Doesn't have to be inefficient, I can get 300 FPS from my closed bolt Ion at 105 psi from my shop compressor, and that has ~1.3 ci dump chamber.
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:21 PM #11
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Doesn't have to be inefficient, I can get 300 FPS from my closed bolt Ion at 105 psi from my shop compressor, and that has ~1.3 ci dump chamber.
I would be surprised if that got more than 300 shots per 48/3000.
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:21 PM #12
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droid drivetrains run low and they are some of the most efficient spoolies ever made

not sure on the dump size though
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:28 PM #13
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droid drivetrains run low and they are some of the most efficient spoolies ever made

not sure on the dump size though
The Dump on the Droid is very large, it is also a metered dump marker so it uses the same amount of air per cycle.
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:36 PM #14
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Interesting debate here but efficiency depends on more than just dump chamber pressure. As you all know the flow path and distance dictates efficiency. The pressure that reaches the ball is probably quite similar from marker to marker. How does the clone manage to be efficient when operating around 100 psi? It does so by placing the valve as close as possible to to the ball (powertube tip) and giving the air a flow path free of obstruction. The a matrix is of course the opposite end of the spectrum.

In short, it would be possible to make a relatively efficient marker that ran at 60-70 psi with some extremely clever valve and dump chamber designs. It's way easier to engineer a system that will operate efficienctly at 100-200 psi though. Either way the ball sees the same pressure.
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Old 03-24-2011, 05:30 PM #15
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I would be surprised if that got more than 300 shots per 48/3000.
Mine, or the one here? Because mine can get way more than that.

Quote:
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Interesting debate here but efficiency depends on more than just dump chamber pressure. As you all know the flow path and distance dictates efficiency. The pressure that reaches the ball is probably quite similar from marker to marker. How does the clone manage to be efficient when operating around 100 psi? It does so by placing the valve as close as possible to to the ball (powertube tip) and giving the air a flow path free of obstruction. The a matrix is of course the opposite end of the spectrum.

In short, it would be possible to make a relatively efficient marker that ran at 60-70 psi with some extremely clever valve and dump chamber designs. It's way easier to engineer a system that will operate efficienctly at 100-200 psi though. Either way the ball sees the same pressure.

Pretty much every person that's said anything in this thread so far is well aware of that. But dump chamber volume in a metered system, combined with operating pressure, can give you a very good estimate on shots per tank.
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Old 03-24-2011, 05:40 PM #16
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Mine, or the one here? Because mine can get way more than that.
Define way more? Do you actually have efficiency testing? Also, we are talking about a 48/3000.
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Old 03-24-2011, 06:39 PM #17
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That's why the second sentence in my post state "as you all know"
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Old 03-24-2011, 07:06 PM #18
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Lomarandil and Leafy both have kits for testing. Leafy breaks Ion boards just looking at them, and Lo has been testing it mechanically with no QEV. Currently, he's getting between 1500 and 1600 per 68-45 running it mechanically, 150-160 psi to get it there, with a slight overbore. We're pretty sure that the issue with his having to run that high is using an SMAV-3, which is known to have a low enough flow rate to prove detrimental to efficiency in mechanical Ions. Even at 1500 shots (low end of his numbers), a 68-45 has 306,000 inch-pounds of stored pneumatic energy. A 45-3000 has 144,000 inch-pounds of stored energy. 144/306 = .47. Even with the lower efficiency he is getting mechanically, it should get approximately 700 shots from a 48/3000. Using an energy ratio of what he is getting at 150 psi (195 inch-pounds per shot), the efficiency correlates almost perfectly to the theoretical efficiency using dump chamber volume and pressure compared to stored energy in a tank. Using the same comparison of his results at his pressure (and subsequent energy usage) to the pressure it runs at with a board (105 psi, 136.5 inch-pounds per shot), it correlates again almost perfectly to the original efficiency I tested it to, just shy of 2,300 shots per tank, and to the theoretical efficiency of the same nearly 2,300 shots per tank.

If you have a working Ion with a board, I'd be happy to make one to send you Bug.
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Old 03-25-2011, 02:05 AM #19
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Yeah I wish I had an ION to mess with. They are good project platforms. Still 700 shots seems overly high. Even with a blowback, I have never gotten any more than 600 shots with a full 48/3000.
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Old 03-26-2011, 07:26 PM #20
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You think I would make an unmetered spool?

I was going to experiment with closing off the dump chamber early and trapping the unused "bottom end" of the dump chamber, while using a second return force, to maintain cycle speed, but admittedly it would have more then likely caused inconsistencies, rather then increased efficiency, much like having to large a dump chamber... But why would anyone do that?
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Old 03-26-2011, 09:36 PM #21
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I'd rather have a ginormous dump chamber that I could drop inserts in to tune than too small a one and wish I could cram an extra 50psi in there to reduce shootdown issues without it shooting hot or being wasteful.
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