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Old 07-05-2011, 06:22 PM #1
FlyGuy10
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Pooty modded bolts for half/midblock cockers? Good idea?

Just wondering...

I may be obtaining a halfblock cocker in a few weeks, and i'm wondering:
Would having the halfblock bolt pooty modded help/be worth it?

Please see his thread to see what he does for poppit bolts http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...964&highlight=

...but basically he removes a majority of the surface of the bolt that touches the breach/inner wall of the bolt tube, and may or may not add orings (idk because he's never done a modded halfblock bolt).

Discuss.
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Old 07-05-2011, 08:27 PM #2
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:05 PM #3
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Don't think it would hurt but dont see any gains outside of the o-rings.
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:21 PM #4
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his bolts work great. i have personally sen some gains from them. the only issue is that there is a little more maintetnance. when the bolt gets dirty the orings seem to drag a little causing some shoot down.
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:30 PM #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyGuy10 View Post
Just wondering...

I may be obtaining a halfblock cocker in a few weeks, and i'm wondering:
Would having the halfblock bolt pooty modded help/be worth it?

Please see his thread to see what he does for poppit bolts http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...964&highlight=

...but basically he removes a majority of the surface of the bolt that touches the breach/inner wall of the bolt tube, and may or may not add orings (idk because he's never done a modded halfblock bolt).

Discuss.
The man works wonders on poppits and spools. Everything he has done for a luxe I've had done. I've heard great things for his cure bolts as well.

I'd say give it a shot, could open another door for him in a new area.
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:36 PM #6
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pretty cool actually, I could have my dad do this to one of my half block bolts, though I don't have a working midblock anymore.

Only problem is a lot of people running half blocks are using no orings which means they don't have to worry about all these new orings you're putting on there getting ripped to pieces. Though it can easily be solved by smoothing the surface of where the bolt enters the top tube.
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:47 PM #7
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thought one: do it yourself. its not hard, and save yourself the money.

thought two: not much more can be gained by doing this.

my halfie project is already polished in both bores, and my bolt is now a perfect fit. i added fluting on the bolt to reduce contact surface area, but it looks cooler than than any real difference made mechanically speaking. weight savings and friction reduction were minimal. orings will most likely slow you down, but that depends on the bolt fit. just my $.02
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:55 PM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazingBilldo View Post
thought one: do it yourself. its not hard, and save yourself the money.

thought two: not much more can be gained by doing this.

my halfie project is already polished in both bores, and my bolt is now a perfect fit. i added fluting on the bolt to reduce contact surface area, but it looks cooler than than any real difference made mechanically speaking. weight savings and friction reduction were minimal. orings will most likely slow you down, but that depends on the bolt fit. just my $.02
Dunno how fast you're trying to shoot, but realistically speaking having o-rings on your bolt is going to have no noticeable difference in speed.
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:53 PM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazingBilldo View Post
thought one: do it yourself. its not hard, and save yourself the money.

thought two: not much more can be gained by doing this.

my halfie project is already polished in both bores, and my bolt is now a perfect fit. i added fluting on the bolt to reduce contact surface area, but it looks cooler than than any real difference made mechanically speaking. weight savings and friction reduction were minimal. orings will most likely slow you down, but that depends on the bolt fit. just my $.02
I would do it myself if I had the time, but alas I do not. It's not an expensive mod anyway (theoretically).

I just feel as if orings would help with efficiency (making sure the air goes completely behind the ball instead of elsewhere).

All I know is I saw a Youtube vid where a kid was shooting his Ego with the unmodded bolt at around 280-85. He takes the stock bolt out and puts in the Pooty modded bolt and immediately its shooting at 290-95fps. That may not be alot in terms of efficiency when all is said and done, but if the mod is going to cost $20-$30 to do and will help at all, then why not?
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Old 07-06-2011, 02:56 PM #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaTear_Griffin View Post
Dunno how fast you're trying to shoot, but realistically speaking having o-rings on your bolt is going to have no noticeable difference in speed.
oring drag is a problem that has been discussed before, and it really depends on the person taking care of the gun. a bolt made specifically for the gun would not need orings simply because of better tolerances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyGuy10 View Post
I just feel as if orings would help with efficiency (making sure the air goes completely behind the ball instead of elsewhere).

All I know is I saw a Youtube vid where a kid was shooting his Ego with the unmodded bolt at around 280-85. He takes the stock bolt out and puts in the Pooty modded bolt and immediately its shooting at 290-95fps. That may not be alot in terms of efficiency when all is said and done, but if the mod is going to cost $20-$30 to do and will help at all, then why not?
because you can use that to buy a case of paint to shoot through your already perfectly functional gun

Orings on an existing bolt would maybe help if you have blow-by issues, but something to consider: if you are going through the effort of having a bolt worked on, why would you want one modified, as opposed to one custom made to fit your gun? does anyone know specifically what he does to that bolt that makes it better? i think its nothing more than opening it up a little more to allow better air flow. Granted, that will help efficiency enough to make a big impact on overall shot count per tank.

the polishing of the top tube can do nothing but help you. thought i'd clarify my opinion on that.
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Old 07-06-2011, 04:13 PM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazingBilldo View Post
oring drag is a problem that has been discussed before, and it really depends on the person taking care of the gun. a bolt made specifically for the gun would not need orings simply because of better tolerances.



because you can use that to buy a case of paint to shoot through your already perfectly functional gun

Orings on an existing bolt would maybe help if you have blow-by issues, but something to consider: if you are going through the effort of having a bolt worked on, why would you want one modified, as opposed to one custom made to fit your gun? does anyone know specifically what he does to that bolt that makes it better? i think its nothing more than opening it up a little more to allow better air flow. Granted, that will help efficiency enough to make a big impact on overall shot count per tank.

the polishing of the top tube can do nothing but help you. thought i'd clarify my opinion on that.
I spend on a budget, so my paint is already taken care of

If you read the thread, I don't think that he does any "opening up" of anything on the inside of the bolt. It seems that all he does is remove some material so the bolt doesn't touch the wall of the tube as much which otherwise would cause less drag or fricton, allowing the bolt to theoretically move more freely and more easily within the tube. And he also adds oring groves for orings.

So theorectically, if I had a halfblock bolt "made custom" to fit my cocker, it would still drag more simply because more surface area of the bolt would come in contact with the tube wall. The Pooty mod "solves" this by removing the majority of the bolt surface area.
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Old 07-06-2011, 04:14 PM #12
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Originally Posted by AmazingBilldo View Post
because you can use that to buy a case of paint to shoot through your already perfectly functional gun
Oh and my gun isn't fully functional at all. It's a project halfblock cocker
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Old 07-06-2011, 06:58 PM #13
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look like a fun mod to do, might give it a try

i think his mode to getting higher fps is having the 2 oring near the inlet hole of the bolt. less air escaping and going towards the front mean a bit higher fps.

i really like what he did by shaving the bolt surface area, very smart
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Old 07-06-2011, 11:57 PM #14
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the best video I've seen on it so far is a bolt comparison on a Creed. The stock bolt = 290-300fps, the Pooty bolt = 350fps. Thats kind of alot of air!
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Old 07-07-2011, 04:25 AM #15
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It's worth noting that this bolt mod is actually very likely counterproductive.

If the goal is to reduce drag, simply reducing the surface area of one of the two sliding surfaces is not the way to go. Assuming the force stays the same- and in this instance, the only "force" acting on the bolt is the air burst trying to push it upwards at the moment of firing, so we can assume the force does indeed remain constant.

If the force remains constant, halving the contact surface area doubles the force on the remaining area. Drag actually increases due to a greater point loading.

And in the case of a paintball gun bolt, I'd imagine the narrow remaining contact rings would wear considerably faster than an unmodded bolt (less material to wear, much higher contact load, etc.)

As far as the mod on a halfblock, keep in mind that in many cases, the bolt tends to help guide the sled to some degree- especially on heavily cut-down halfblocks with extra-short bolts and minimal sleds.

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Old 07-07-2011, 09:42 AM #16
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Love your comic doc, especially the craigslist strip. I just finished reading from start to finish a couple of weeks ago.

I have Pooty polish my Shocker bolts and they are amazing. Makes my $175 SFT shoot like a Luxe.

I think the biggest gain seen on the poppits is because the o-rings allow less air to be lost. I would venture the guess that adding the o-rings and not shaving the material would be better.
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Old 07-07-2011, 01:48 PM #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
It's worth noting that this bolt mod is actually very likely counterproductive.

If the goal is to reduce drag, simply reducing the surface area of one of the two sliding surfaces is not the way to go. Assuming the force stays the same- and in this instance, the only "force" acting on the bolt is the air burst trying to push it upwards at the moment of firing, so we can assume the force does indeed remain constant.

If the force remains constant, halving the contact surface area doubles the force on the remaining area. Drag actually increases due to a greater point loading.

And in the case of a paintball gun bolt, I'd imagine the narrow remaining contact rings would wear considerably faster than an unmodded bolt (less material to wear, much higher contact load, etc.)

As far as the mod on a halfblock, keep in mind that in many cases, the bolt tends to help guide the sled to some degree- especially on heavily cut-down halfblocks with extra-short bolts and minimal sleds.

Doc.
sorry going to have to disagree on the drag point. there should be no force from the air since the bolt should be still when the bolt has air in it. as the bolt is moving back and forth there is no vertical force being applied only the lateral force. modified bolt should work well in a md block body, for half block body i would only modify the front portion and leave the back portion that makes contact with the sled the way it is.
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Old 07-07-2011, 05:07 PM #18
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Quote:
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there should be no force from the air since the bolt should be still when the bolt has air in it. as the bolt is moving back and forth there is no vertical force being applied only the lateral force.
-Actually, with a 'Cocker, you're right. (Though if we want to pick nits, you mean "axial" force, not lateral, but hey... )

With a 'Cocker, the firing and bolt cycling are indeed two separate actions. When I wrote that reply, I was looking at the bolts linked above (since I hadn't heard of a "Pooty" mod) and had in mind the Marq and other bolts shown. And in ram-fired or striker-fired markers, of course, the bolt is in motion as the air burst applies it's force.

Though I still wonder why bother reducing the body of the bolt if you're adding the O-rings. The "O-ringless" bolts came about specifically to reduce drag over a 'ringed bolt, and if properly fit, blow-by around a smooth Delrin bolt is negligible.

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Old 07-07-2011, 05:11 PM #19
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Quote:
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-Actually, with a 'Cocker, you're right. (Though if we want to pick nits, you mean "axial" force, not lateral, but hey... )

With a 'Cocker, the firing and bolt cycling are indeed two separate actions. When I wrote that reply, I was looking at the bolts linked above (since I hadn't heard of a "Pooty" mod) and had in mind the Marq and other bolts shown. And in ram-fired or striker-fired markers, of course, the bolt is in motion as the air burst applies it's force.

Though I still wonder why bother reducing the body of the bolt if you're adding the O-rings. The "O-ringless" bolts came about specifically to reduce drag over a 'ringed bolt, and if properly fit, blow-by around a smooth Delrin bolt is negligible.

Doc.
so with other markers it does not work the same way? i only know spyder and cockers, well only cockers. i just tell people i know spyder to look cooler.
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Old 07-07-2011, 05:23 PM #20
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Quote:
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so with other markers it does not work the same way? i only know spyder and cockers, well only cockers. i just tell people i know spyder to look cooler.
-Well, without having to write a book on it, yes, Spyders and 'Cockers work two different ways.

On a 'Cocker, there's the "cocking" action (the ram pushing the block or sled backward and then pulling it forward) and a separate "firing" action (whatever method either releases the sear or otherwise pops the valve.)

On a Spyder (and a multitude of other stacked-tube guns, plus ram-fired guns like the 'Timmy and eTek, etc.) the bolt is attached to the striker. And since the striker is in motion as it opens the valve (and then is pushed back away from the valve by whatever means) then the bolt too, is in motion.

Which means, in this case, that the bolt is moving as the air burst is trying to push it upwards, which causes it to "scrub" along the bolt passage.

It's really not a huge deal on most markers, but it's worth noting that early Spyders came factory with a reduced-body bolt similar to the "Pooty" mod noted above. They scrubbed and wore pretty badly, actually (it didn't help that they were aluminum) but it wasn't long before we found that aftermarket full-diameter bolts (the closer the fit, the better, up to a point) reduced the 'scrubbing' considerably, and full-diameter Delrin ones helped even more.

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Old 07-07-2011, 08:24 PM #21
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here is my attempt at it, can not help with fps but should produce less drag




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