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Old 03-11-2011, 02:47 PM #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hsilman View Post
consensus is a good word. It's basically the same way we reach a consensus about anything else. What you see as history is an aggregate of mostly anthropological information combines with what is deemed "sufficient" source material.

What we are finding more recently though, is that many of our anthropological assumptions are wrong. The hermeneutics(ie historical context) we viewed things in has been all skewed. I don't know if you watch Futurama at all, but it's like when they go to the Museum of the 20th century and they believed Jackie Gleason was the impetus behind the space program(straight to the moon, Alice!).

Also, much like statistical significant data pools, in ancient history we have much fewer source texts to go through and have to make some big assumptions.

For instance, did you know there are fewer indications for the existence of Socrates then Jesus? Yet one is an accepted historical figure, while the other is in dispute. Of course, one might say the nature of the source material comes into play when discussing "evidence".

Another historical instance is we've learned that the varying Egyptian civilizations tended to destroy evidence of prior ones and also paint them in a poor light. Prior to this discovery, we simply assumed the accuracy of the egyptians description of earlier lines of kings/pharaohs and the pre-pharoah era. But now we are looking at the evidence we have in a whole new lights.

Generally, the issue is the establishment of context. It's very tough because the farther you go back, the less context you get handed to you and the more of a framework you have to create for yourself.

Does that make sense? your term "consensus" is pretty much applicable to everything we have established as knowledge of the ancient world. History certainly has facts, but if we were confined to those we would dare say anything about these fascinating civilizations.
This was a good post, thank you. I will admit to have simply taken the existence of Socrates as a given based off of what I've learned of him, so I suppose the same historical acceptance could be made for Jesus. But your second to last paragraph was the main reason I disliked the "fact" claim. It also may have had something to do with the way that the claim was made. Thanks again for a good response.
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Old 03-11-2011, 04:03 PM #86
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It's not at all about hating monotheistic religions. How absurd can you get? Just as monotheistic religions try to spread their word, we try to spread ours. The people we have to spread out word to are those that do follow such theistic beliefs. So who the hell are you to say that what we do is any different or any more wrong?

Western atheists have the strongest opposition towards Christianity because any idiot would see that Christianity is, far and wide, the absolute most followed religious belief.

Of course we support things like embryonic stem cell research and others that are useful sciences to living better, healthier, and longer lives. This is our only time here. But to say that atheists inherit their morality from Christianity is absolutely absurd. I inherited my morality by common thought of what's good and what's bad to me, such as any animal does so.

That entire quote is an abomination in of itself. It's self-defeating, ignorant, and drenched with bias.
Actually the point of the quote is that modern Atheists are hardly different than fundamentalist theists. You are walking evidence of that, no doubt. Just read through your posting history. Secular Humanist morality bares a striking resemblance to Christian morality.

Of course it has bias. You are incredibly guilty of that as well. Might as well discard most of what you post then. You inherited your morality by common thought of what's good and bad to you. Either you inherited your morality or you made it up for yourself. Which is it?
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Old 03-11-2011, 04:06 PM #87
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Politics my ***. I don't hate religions i have issues with the teaching of them and the fact that the majority of the world runs off their fallacies and mythical sayings. To say i hate them is going to far, i'm tolerant and always will be until i have a reason not to be. I just can't seem to grasp why everyone will so blindly follow something with such little proof or evidence to me it makes no sense and i try to open people's eyes to my point of view.
I'm sure you hate christianity, not christians.

You prove my point. Just like followers of Christianity, you want to show people your way.

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Martian that is bull****. We are obviously pissed off teenagers in a fit of rebellion. Get it right.
Nope, just dogmatic, like them.
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Old 03-11-2011, 05:47 PM #88
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....Just as monotheistic religions try to spread their word, we try to spread ours. The people we have to spread out word to are those that do follow such theistic beliefs. So who the hell are you to say that what we do is any different or any more wrong?....
Whoa whoa whoa... atheism is a belief system now?
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Old 03-11-2011, 10:47 PM #89
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Secular Humanist morality bares a striking resemblance to Christian morality.
Your point? I don't think it is hard to understand how "do unto others as you would have them do to you" is generally a good place to base your morals. Forgiveness and tolerance comes into play when you once again try to put yourself in the other persons position, and attempt to see things from their perspective. These aren't Christian or Buddhist morals, just because their texts preach it. Except I'm pretty most secular humanists don't think it morally wrong to curse, be gay, get high/drunk, or lust over an attractive member of the opposite sex. So I don't really see how the morals line up as well as you think they do.

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Nope, just dogmatic, like them.
What dogma is involved with Atheism? Based on the scientific knowledge I learn, I reach explanations for phenomena that others turn to a god for. Based off my understanding of psychology and sociology, I can understand why it is so easy for people today to believe in a higher power. Based off of what I have personally observed in my lifetime, I conclude that not everything happens for a reason. Sometimes things just happen. Sometimes good people get **** on, and bad people have great success. Just how things are, no reason for it. Nothing I have learned or observed in my life suggests that there is a god, so I have no reason to believe there is one. Until the claim that there is a god has credible backing, I won't believe it. People who say there is a god conjured this idea up, therefore it is their duty to prove it valid.

That is not to say I know there is no god, but I am of the same certainty as I am about Big Foot. I can't prove he doesn't exist, and I can't know what other people have seen when they claim to have witnessed him. But based on what I do know, and have observed, I have no reason to believe Big Foot does exist, or ever did.
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Old 03-12-2011, 12:57 AM #90
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Random note on the GDT side of things:

I just got a letter from my little brother who is currently at basic training at Ft. Knox, and apparently the guy who punched out Snooki on Jersey Shore is in his troop. Apparently one of their platoon's sergeants came in on one of his days off after coming across an article about the guy, and outed him in front of everybody as, "The guy who punched that Jersey Shore skank."

I thought it was pretty crazy.
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Old 03-12-2011, 09:22 AM #91
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^^^Haha..

Anyways, I think the reason people don't question Socrates is because it dose not matter if he existed or not. His philosophies could have been a product of a random loon, it dose not discredit them.

Jesus on the other hand HAS to exist in order for him to be relevant. I think Jesus existed, but things from that time tend to be fuzzy. So I won't say for sure.
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Old 03-12-2011, 10:21 AM #92
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
I'm sure you hate christianity, not christians.

You prove my point. Just like followers of Christianity, you want to show people your way.



To say i hate Christianity is still a stretch. I'm indifferent on it for the most part, yes there are parts that i hate such as radical groups i.e. protestors at funerals of fallen soldiers, i whole heartedly hate that, yet to sayi hate the entire religion is to far of a stretch. I never claimed i didn't try to spread my views either. I will openly admitt i will try to spread the point of view of atheism in order to properly educate people so as they are able to make their own decisions. Do i pressure them into doing so? No i don't, my best friend in high school was Christian to the T, church 3 times a week etc. A couple of good friends in college are chrisitian, baptist and jewish. None of which i have a problem with. I have no hate towards religion i'm more indifferent like i said because in my mind it doesn't mean anything to me.
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Old 03-12-2011, 11:37 AM #93
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Your point? I don't think it is hard to understand how "do unto others as you would have them do to you" is generally a good place to base your morals. Forgiveness and tolerance comes into play when you once again try to put yourself in the other persons position, and attempt to see things from their perspective. These aren't Christian or Buddhist morals, just because their texts preach it. Except I'm pretty most secular humanists don't think it morally wrong to curse, be gay, get high/drunk, or lust over an attractive member of the opposite sex. So I don't really see how the morals line up as well as you think they do.
Look deeper. Christianity regards the individual as the absolute. They are given as much freedom as possible and when they **** it up, only God can judge them. Every life is sacred to them, every life should be saved. After all, we are each created in God's image, each soul is special. Pacifism is also an ideal "turn the other cheek." Can't forget about the mental enslavement of the good and evil dichotomy.

What is humanism? exaltation of the individual over all else. Each life then must be equal, this is done over the guise of human rights. Just for the simple fact that we are human. Sounds strikingly similar to we are all equal because God made us. War and conflict are bad maaaaan because they end human life. Love your neighbor no matter how much of an abusive, drug addicted loser he is. You can't condemn anyone's behavior because they only live once and that would be hate. Hate is evil.....erhm sorry bad. Humanists love the good and evil morality, but they won't call it good and evil since those would be spiritual. After all, God's dead we can't have that.

Both ideologies lock themselves in a morality play. Always justifying themselves, through the crowd, by claiming moral superiority. This is done through things like tolerance or crusades for the poor and downtrodden. Populist down to the bone. We can all be happy if we are all equal and free from conflict.

Try reading, the geneology of morals for a more comprehensive analysis.

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What dogma is involved with Atheism? Based on the scientific knowledge I learn, I reach explanations for phenomena that others turn to a god for. Based off my understanding of psychology and sociology, I can understand why it is so easy for people today to believe in a higher power. Based off of what I have personally observed in my lifetime, I conclude that not everything happens for a reason. Sometimes things just happen. Sometimes good people get **** on, and bad people have great success. Just how things are, no reason for it. Nothing I have learned or observed in my life suggests that there is a god, so I have no reason to believe there is one. Until the claim that there is a god has credible backing, I won't believe it. People who say there is a god conjured this idea up, therefore it is their duty to prove it valid.

That is not to say I know there is no god, but I am of the same certainty as I am about Big Foot. I can't prove he doesn't exist, and I can't know what other people have seen when they claim to have witnessed him. But based on what I do know, and have observed, I have no reason to believe Big Foot does exist, or ever did.
The modern atheist dogma is the materialist worldview. Materialism is the belief that the only existence is the material one.

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Old 03-12-2011, 11:40 AM #94
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To say i hate Christianity is still a stretch. I'm indifferent on it for the most part, yes there are parts that i hate such as radical groups i.e. protestors at funerals of fallen soldiers, i whole heartedly hate that, yet to sayi hate the entire religion is to far of a stretch. I never claimed i didn't try to spread my views either. I will openly admitt i will try to spread the point of view of atheism in order to properly educate people so as they are able to make their own decisions. Do i pressure them into doing so? No i don't, my best friend in high school was Christian to the T, church 3 times a week etc. A couple of good friends in college are chrisitian, baptist and jewish. None of which i have a problem with. I have no hate towards religion i'm more indifferent like i said because in my mind it doesn't mean anything to me.
When you say things like, properly educate. What you are actually saying is," I want to show them my belief because it is right. They can choose to believe me or not, but I am still right regardless." This behavior becomes acceptable because you are tolerant. Or at least that's how it's rationalized. It's not ok for religious to spread their views because they are wrong and pushy. I'm correct and tolerant so it's all good, man.
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Old 03-12-2011, 11:49 AM #95
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You are crossing Atheism with humanism, they are not one and the same. I only mentioned that I personally, as a single Atheist person, am a humanist. And I am a humanist because I choose to be, as to how I live my life. I try not to cause anyone else to suffer, and I try to help people who are suffering. This seems to help me get along in society just fine. I know that no matter if I kill 100 people, or live exactly as Jesus, it won't matter in the grand scheme of things. Nothing I do will matter past my lifetime, especially for me since I won't be around anymore. But like has been said in this forum before, everyone needs to be a part of something bigger than themselves. I choose to try to progress humanity, towards a society of equality, peace, and knowledge.

If I wanted to not care about anything, I could just move back in with my parents, and play video games my whole life. But that wouldn't be the life I want. So I choose to do differently. Helping other people makes me happy, especially my friends and family. See others suffer, gives me sorrow and frustration.

I also feel that you have a skewed vision of what secular humanism is. So maybe this will help:

-A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted on faith.

-Commitment to the use of critical reason, factual evidence, and scientific methods of inquiry, rather than faith and mysticism, in seeking solutions to human problems and answers to important human questions.

-A primary concern with fulfillment, growth, and creativity for both the individual and humankind in general.

-A constant search for objective truth, with the understanding that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our imperfect perception of it.

-A concern for this life and a commitment to making it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who differ from us.

-A search for viable individual, social and political principles of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human well-being and individual responsibility.

-A conviction that with reason, an open marketplace of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children.

What part of this do you have a problem with?
(Keep in mind, we are no longer talking about just Atheism)
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Old 03-12-2011, 12:05 PM #96
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You are crossing Atheism with humanism, they are not one and the same.
Understood, however the reason it is brought up in the same light is because generally, the morality of atheists tends to be secular humanism. Clearly you are one, so I'm right on the money.

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I only mentioned that I personally, as a single Atheist person, am a humanist. And I am a humanist because I choose to be, as to how I live my life. I try not to cause anyone else to suffer, and I try to help people who are suffering. This seems to help me get along in society just fine. I know that no matter if I kill 100 people, or live exactly as Jesus, it won't matter in the grand scheme of things. Nothing I do will matter past my lifetime, especially for me since I won't be around anymore. But like has been said in this forum before, everyone needs to be a part of something bigger than themselves. I choose to try to progress humanity, towards a society of equality, peace, and knowledge.
I don't really care much about your morals or why you do things. That isn't the point of the conversation.

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If I wanted to not care about anything, I could just move back in with my parents, and play video games my whole life. But that wouldn't be the life I want. So I choose to do differently. Helping other people makes me happy, especially my friends and family. See others suffer, gives me sorrow and frustration.
I fail to understand where you pulled this from. The options in life aren't go out and help others, or stay in your parents house and be fat and lazy.

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I also feel that you have a skewed vision of what secular humanism is. So maybe this will help:

-A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted on faith.

-Commitment to the use of critical reason, factual evidence, and scientific methods of inquiry, rather than faith and mysticism, in seeking solutions to human problems and answers to important human questions.

-A primary concern with fulfillment, growth, and creativity for both the individual and humankind in general.

-A constant search for objective truth, with the understanding that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our imperfect perception of it.

-A concern for this life and a commitment to making it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who differ from us.

-A search for viable individual, social and political principles of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human well-being and individual responsibility.

-A conviction that with reason, an open marketplace of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children.

What part of this do you have a problem with?
(Keep in mind, we are no longer talking about just Atheism)
I wish you would respond directly to what I'm saying instead of always going on tangents. Look, when talking about humanism I'm comparing core principles to christianity's core principles. I'm not concerned with things like "Well it rejects mysticism in favor of reason." Yes I know this, it's frivolous information when we are discuss the heart of the philosophies. See what I'm trying to avoid is discussing pointless details like "God says gays are bad" but humanism "likes gays." It's pointless and it will get nowhere.

I bolded the question because it is distracting the conversation. What I have a problem with isn't the point of all this. I suppose I can answer that in another post.
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Old 03-12-2011, 12:42 PM #97
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-A conviction that with reason, an open marketplace of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children.
I left out the rest of it because it is tiresome. I quoted this section as well to make yet another comparison to Christianity. Both humanists and christians regard the world as bad and they can correct this non existent problem.
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Old 03-12-2011, 02:43 PM #98
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When you say things like, properly educate. What you are actually saying is," I want to show them my belief because it is right. They can choose to believe me or not, but I am still right regardless." This behavior becomes acceptable because you are tolerant. Or at least that's how it's rationalized. It's not ok for religious to spread their views because they are wrong and pushy. I'm correct and tolerant so it's all good, man.
It may be that way but christians have every right to spread their religion as they have rightfully done so throughout history. And the properly educate refers to giving a rational logical view from an atheist and not from word of mouth by other religious people on what they "think" atheism is. All i do is provide them my point of view from there on out they are more than willing and allowed to do what they damn well please. I have no issue with religious people spreading their beliefes as long as they don't cram it down peoples throat. When you've made your point there isn't anything left to do but let the person decide which is what i do. Occasionally religions take it further, example, in religious wars, convert or be killed but that's another topic for a different discussion. Call it what you want and look at it as you will i'm only trying to prove i don't HATE religions i'm just indifferent.
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Old 03-12-2011, 02:54 PM #99
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Christianity regards the individual as the absolute.
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What is humanism? exaltation of the individual over all else.
I'm not sure I follow. I think you may be confusing Christianity and Humanism with western culture.

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Actually the point of the quote is that modern Atheists are hardly different than fundamentalist theists. You are walking evidence of that, no doubt. Just read through your posting history. Secular Humanist morality bares a striking resemblance to Christian morality.
Funny, I was going to say Christian morality bore a striking resemblance to greek morality. Which by the way isn't too different from Buddhist and Hindi morality, and nearly every other major world religion. I think you probably all took it from the Zoroastrians.

Strange, maybe the constant here is humanity, that society has an embedded moral code, expressed through although not originating in religion. Oh wait, I forgot, everything revolves around Christians and Christianity because morals didn't exist before Jesus.
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Old 03-13-2011, 06:05 AM #100
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Exactly the point i was wanting to make

Sorry, just now found the thread and had to read through 3 pages of a pissing contest to catch up on the topic.

I wanted to make a point on this:
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Actually the point of the quote is that modern Atheists are hardly different than fundamentalist theists. You are walking evidence of that, no doubt. Just read through your posting history. Secular Humanist morality bares a striking resemblance to Christian morality.
That may be the case, but doesnt "Christian morality" have a strong similarity to most of the moral codes adopted by previous civilizations. i cant remember if im making reference to dawkins or hitchens, but to say that we derive our morals, as a society, from christian ideals, is to say that all civilizations prior to the ten commandments thrived on the premise that murder and theft were perfectly fine.

in a matter of speaking of course.

in other news, apparently my younger brother (17) has now had the same religious argument with our mom that i had like 4 years ago. im proud? i dont know. its cool that hes thinking for himself, but im still not sure if hes come to these beliefs genuinely or if hes just following after me and my dad superficially. We'll see soon enough i guess.
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Old 03-13-2011, 11:39 AM #101
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Exactly the point i was wanting to make

Sorry, just now found the thread and had to read through 3 pages of a pissing contest to catch up on the topic.

I wanted to make a point on this:


That may be the case, but doesnt "Christian morality" have a strong similarity to most of the moral codes adopted by previous civilizations. i cant remember if im making reference to dawkins or hitchens, but to say that we derive our morals, as a society, from christian ideals, is to say that all civilizations prior to the ten commandments thrived on the premise that murder and theft were perfectly fine.

in a matter of speaking of course.

in other news, apparently my younger brother (17) has now had the same religious argument with our mom that i had like 4 years ago. im proud? i dont know. its cool that hes thinking for himself, but im still not sure if hes come to these beliefs genuinely or if hes just following after me and my dad superficially. We'll see soon enough i guess.
At 17 years? No, it isn't genuine independent thought. If anything it is rebellion. You don't develop the full capability for rational thought until about 25, anyway.
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Old 03-13-2011, 02:52 PM #102
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At 17 years? No, it isn't genuine independent thought. If anything it is rebellion. You don't develop the full capability for rational thought until about 25, anyway.
Because that's completely universal, and our "full capability for rational thought" just hits a switch around 25.
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Old 03-13-2011, 03:00 PM #103
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Old 03-13-2011, 03:09 PM #104
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Because that's completely universal, and our "full capability for rational thought" just hits a switch around 25.
If teamsilentassassins is under 25 then I'd say it's strong evidence that you can develop rational thought and think critically before age 25!
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Old 03-13-2011, 03:31 PM #105
hsilman
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Big Apple
did not end well no worries, I played right.
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