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Old 03-09-2011, 05:37 PM #64
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We could take his argument of "so many people say it's true, so it's true" and turn it right back around on him when it comes to extraterrestrial life. Wait. We did that. We told him that most scientists would say that the chance of there being life in the universe is greater than the chance of there not. But of course, that didn't fit his agenda, so he refuted it because... there's no evidence. HO LAWD the hypocrisy

How many people, according to the bible, were witness to the resurrection and/or saw him afterward? All you really need to do is find another purported miracle that is supported by an equal or perhaps greater number of witnesses and evidence. By default he would have to accept that that miracle as true, because it meets or exceeds the same standard of evidence. I wonder just how many miracles we can find that fit into that category?
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Old 03-10-2011, 10:21 AM #65
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It seems that atheism is more about politics these days than about the existence of God. Modern atheism, I equate to Humanism, is about hating monotheistic religions. Western atheists seem to have strongest opposition to Christianity as it is the most influential upon our current society and the biggest influence from our past. The defendants might claim it isn't hate but is close enough in my eyes. While they (humanists) oppose the politics of Christianity (the 'conservative' parts) they still inherit the morality from Christianity: Nietzsche would regard this as a fail.

I'm more fond of the biology articles by Dawkins than his philosophical/religious articles. I see the militant atheists as on a par with the fundamentalist theists for idiocy. Worse still that Humanism ( ~ modern atheism) has phenomenology at its root, just as the theistic religions do --- this seems to contradict the whole point of atheism: God is a phenomenological concept, ergo not real.
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Old 03-10-2011, 07:21 PM #66
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Politics my ***. I don't hate religions i have issues with the teaching of them and the fact that the majority of the world runs off their fallacies and mythical sayings. To say i hate them is going to far, i'm tolerant and always will be until i have a reason not to be. I just can't seem to grasp why everyone will so blindly follow something with such little proof or evidence to me it makes no sense and i try to open people's eyes to my point of view.
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Old 03-10-2011, 07:27 PM #67
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Martian that is bull****. We are obviously pissed off teenagers in a fit of rebellion. Get it right.
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Old 03-10-2011, 07:32 PM #68
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It's not at all about hating monotheistic religions. How absurd can you get? Just as monotheistic religions try to spread their word, we try to spread ours. The people we have to spread out word to are those that do follow such theistic beliefs. So who the hell are you to say that what we do is any different or any more wrong?

Western atheists have the strongest opposition towards Christianity because any idiot would see that Christianity is, far and wide, the absolute most followed religious belief.

Of course we support things like embryonic stem cell research and others that are useful sciences to living better, healthier, and longer lives. This is our only time here. But to say that atheists inherit their morality from Christianity is absolutely absurd. I inherited my morality by common thought of what's good and what's bad to me, such as any animal does so.

That entire quote is an abomination in of itself. It's self-defeating, ignorant, and drenched with bias.
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Old 03-10-2011, 07:54 PM #69
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We are obviously pissed off teenagers in a fit of rebellion. Get it right.
pretty much...
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Old 03-10-2011, 08:15 PM #70
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pretty much...
Sheep.
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Old 03-10-2011, 08:19 PM #71
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Sheep.
take a joke, brah. don't be so childish.
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Old 03-10-2011, 08:22 PM #72
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take a joke, brah.
lol
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Old 03-10-2011, 08:24 PM #73
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take a joke, brah. don't be so childish.
No, I don't wanna.
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Old 03-10-2011, 08:26 PM #74
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No, I don't wanna.
stop man. you're being so childish. like a child.
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Old 03-10-2011, 08:36 PM #75
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man the amazing ignorance as to what history is and how we establish historical facts that is floating around in this thread is amazing.

Suffice it to say, unless warbeak drops in here, no one who has posted so far has any clue as to how the information in your history textbooks from the ancient world got there.
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Old 03-10-2011, 08:43 PM #76
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stop man. you're being so childish. like a child.
That was a joke, breh. Take it. Child please, child please.
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Old 03-10-2011, 08:52 PM #77
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That was a joke, breh. Take it. Child please, child please.
what you're acting like:


a child

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man the amazing ignorance as to what history is and how we establish historical facts that is floating around in this thread is amazing.

Suffice it to say, unless warbeak drops in here, no one who has posted so far has any clue as to how the information in your history textbooks from the ancient world got there.
good post. it's not like any of us have degrees or anything...
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:04 PM #78
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man the amazing ignorance as to what history is and how we establish historical facts that is floating around in this thread is amazing.

Suffice it to say, unless warbeak drops in here, no one who has posted so far has any clue as to how the information in your history textbooks from the ancient world got there.
Or History majors. That'd be absurd.

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what you're acting like:


a child
Just one? I was thinking all five.
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:12 PM #79
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270 - Again displaying your favorite tactic of posting random pictures from Google images to fight your battles. I can't even address any real discussion because you keep turning it into a **** show. Stay out of this thread if you are going to act like a child. Yes, saying it again, a child. Go to small talk, observe the 12 year olds who post in there, and notice the similarities. It's ridiculous. Leave.

hsilman -

I just think it is different when you are merely cross referencing ancient religious texts from 2,000 years ago, who themselves were written many years after the events. I guess I just struggle with the term historical FACT. Consensus or accepted understanding would be more accurate imo. Today, we can go back 40 years no problem and use various methods to reaching the most accurate understanding of events. Back 2,000 years ago, I don't think the same can be said. So when we take a source that is that old, which was written years after that of which it writes about, which has been translated and interpreted over and over again, I don't see how it has enough credibility to be taken as fact when referenced with other documents of similar standing.

I would appreciate hearing your reasoning for what constitutes as being a fact in the historical context, if you wouldn't mind, and can explain it to me in a civil manner. I would like to avoid another 270 entering this thread trying to stir things up.
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:14 PM #80
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Just one? I was thinking all five.
Cup the balls, TSA. Don't forget.

(And I thought you said we never had any problems between us, besides our simple disagreements? Surely you can't believe I have been more childish than 270 has in here, a thread he has no business in to begin with? Surely you don't believe I started this pissing match in here?)
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:34 PM #81
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270kidz, teamsilentassassins, and whoever else I missed, stop posting in here. I'd rather not get rid of the CK, atheist and whatever else threads just because they start stupid fights.
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Old 03-10-2011, 11:56 PM #82
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I guess I just struggle with the term historical FACT. Consensus or accepted understanding would be more accurate imo.
This is the entire point I've been trying to get at. There is no definitive proof of such a man's existence. If you want to come to a consensus and say that he was believed to exist based off current evidence, then so be it. That doesn't etch his existence in stone. And, like I've stated before, I've never said I believed he didn't exist. I'm just saying that there's no actual proof of his existence.

Why this sort of humility is so hard to attribute to some is something I will never understand. But oh well... If people want to be dishonest with themselves, then so be it.
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Old 03-11-2011, 06:35 AM #83
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270 - Again displaying your favorite tactic of posting random pictures from Google images to fight your battles. I can't even address any real discussion because you keep turning it into a **** show. Stay out of this thread if you are going to act like a child. Yes, saying it again, a child. Go to small talk, observe the 12 year olds who post in there, and notice the similarities. It's ridiculous. Leave.

hsilman -

I just think it is different when you are merely cross referencing ancient religious texts from 2,000 years ago, who themselves were written many years after the events. I guess I just struggle with the term historical FACT. Consensus or accepted understanding would be more accurate imo. Today, we can go back 40 years no problem and use various methods to reaching the most accurate understanding of events. Back 2,000 years ago, I don't think the same can be said. So when we take a source that is that old, which was written years after that of which it writes about, which has been translated and interpreted over and over again, I don't see how it has enough credibility to be taken as fact when referenced with other documents of similar standing.

I would appreciate hearing your reasoning for what constitutes as being a fact in the historical context, if you wouldn't mind, and can explain it to me in a civil manner. I would like to avoid another 270 entering this thread trying to stir things up.
consensus is a good word. It's basically the same way we reach a consensus about anything else. What you see as history is an aggregate of mostly anthropological information combines with what is deemed "sufficient" source material.

What we are finding more recently though, is that many of our anthropological assumptions are wrong. The hermeneutics(ie historical context) we viewed things in has been all skewed. I don't know if you watch Futurama at all, but it's like when they go to the Museum of the 20th century and they believed Jackie Gleason was the impetus behind the space program(straight to the moon, Alice!).

Also, much like statistical significant data pools, in ancient history we have much fewer source texts to go through and have to make some big assumptions.

For instance, did you know there are fewer indications for the existence of Socrates then Jesus? Yet one is an accepted historical figure, while the other is in dispute. Of course, one might say the nature of the source material comes into play when discussing "evidence".

Another historical instance is we've learned that the varying Egyptian civilizations tended to destroy evidence of prior ones and also paint them in a poor light. Prior to this discovery, we simply assumed the accuracy of the egyptians description of earlier lines of kings/pharaohs and the pre-pharoah era. But now we are looking at the evidence we have in a whole new lights.

Generally, the issue is the establishment of context. It's very tough because the farther you go back, the less context you get handed to you and the more of a framework you have to create for yourself.

Does that make sense? your term "consensus" is pretty much applicable to everything we have established as knowledge of the ancient world. History certainly has facts, but if we were confined to those we would dare say anything about these fascinating civilizations.
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Old 03-11-2011, 02:07 PM #84
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For instance, did you know there are fewer indications for the existence of Socrates then Jesus? Yet one is an accepted historical figure, while the other is in dispute.
I was the one that brought up the lack of conclusive evidence for Jesus, but let it be known that I also pointed out that there is no proof of Socrates' existence either.
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