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Old 03-08-2011, 09:43 PM #22
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We've been through this before and you failed to show me any proof of his existence. All the people you listed that wrote about him (all of which wrote entirely different things about the entirety of Jesus' life) were not alive during Jesus' lifetime. I'm not going through this again. You show me on written word from someone who was alive during the time of Jesus and had a first-hand encounter with him, then you'll have a point... but sadly, there is no such documentation.

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To argue otherwise is to argue that we never went to the moon and that aliens caused 9/11.
Your comparative analogies are absolutely horrendous.
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Old 03-08-2011, 09:57 PM #23
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We've been through this before and you failed to show me any proof of his existence. All the people you listed that wrote about him (all of which wrote entirely different things about the entirety of Jesus' life) were not alive during Jesus' lifetime. I'm not going through this again. You show me on written word from someone who was alive during the time of Jesus and had a first-hand encounter with him, then you'll have a point... but sadly, there is no such documentation.
That is hardly a requirement for historical evidence. We can eliminate half of our historical record by that requirement. 13+ non-biblical historical references within 20 years of one's death are easily enough to consider something historical fact. That's why it is considered historical fact.

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Your comparative analogies are absolutely horrendous.
But yet oh so accurate.
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Old 03-08-2011, 10:15 PM #24
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Originally Posted by 270KIDZ View Post
That is hardly a requirement for historical evidence. We can eliminate half of our historical record by that requirement. 13+ non-biblical historical references within 20 years of one's death are easily enough to consider something historical fact. That's why it is considered historical fact.


You don't get it. There's no real proof of his existence. You can't deny that. Stop working around my point and admit something for once.

It's the same way that we have no proof of Socrates ever existing. Of course, we have supposed writings from the man himself (unlike someone else), but there is no real, first-hand evidence to prove his existence.

There is no Roman record of the execution of a man named Jesus Christ. There is not a single contemporary document of the man. Everything written about Jesus came well after his death. Be as naive as you want, but that is not proof of existence. If you want to continue to work around that, then feel free because I need not address the issue again. Any evidential piece of Jesus' existence is from word of another person. No first-hand encounters. Get that in your head, please...
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Old 03-08-2011, 11:02 PM #25
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You don't get it. There's no real proof of his existence. You can't deny that. Stop working around my point and admit something for once.

It's the same way that we have no proof of Socrates ever existing. Of course, we have supposed writings from the man himself (unlike someone else), but there is no real, first-hand evidence to prove his existence.

There is no Roman record of the execution of a man named Jesus Christ. There is not a single contemporary document of the man. Everything written about Jesus came well after his death. Be as naive as you want, but that is not proof of existence. If you want to continue to work around that, then feel free because I need not address the issue again. Any evidential piece of Jesus' existence is from word of another person. No first-hand encounters. Get that in your head, please...
You keep believing that. Me and the entire scholastic community will believe that 13 unrelated documents are enough evidence to prove one's existence.

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May I ask you what research you have done on the topic? Do you have a major in the field or are you relying on google and wikipedia?
Also by not answering this, I'm assuming google and wikipedia.
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Old 03-08-2011, 11:12 PM #26
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You keep believing that. Me and the entire scholastic community will believe that 13 unrelated documents are enough evidence to prove one's existence.
Just like ignorance towards heliocentrism. Cool.
Or the Earth being flat. Cool.
Or that famines were a result of God's punishment. Cool.

Once again, numbers in belief =/= objective fact.

Rather than acknowledging the facts, you're choosing to simply believe a figure existed, which I can't blame you as it's simply an extension of your preexisting belief in another figure that lacks any facts as well.

But the fact that you're unwilling to admit there is no evidence to prove his existence is rather disheartening. You have the right to say the "evidence" you've encountered [b]suggests[b] that he existed, but there is no way you can objectively say he did, in fact, exist.

The funny thing is that every time I've asked for your evidential proof, you've ran around it and attacked some other moot point.

But hey, you seem to be okay living your life being told what to do. So, have at it.
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:25 AM #27
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The funny thing is that every time I've asked for your evidential proof, you've ran around it and attacked some other moot point.
Because in the past, I have supplied you with substantial amounts of proof that you discard with outrageous "conditions" that would discard every historical discovery before the Renaissance. But you seem to enjoy living in your own little world, so I'll leave you to it. Maybe I can come visit some time. I promise not to laugh at your tinfoil hats.

Once again:
Scholarly community accepts evidence as fact = historical fact
You trying to exclude evidence based on biased "conditions" = petty child
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:26 AM #28
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:33 AM #29
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Even if jesus was real the rest of the story of his death and ressurection can be argued to the ends of the earth. Just because someone exists doesn't mean the legend and infamy they are known for is true.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:06 AM #30
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Originally Posted by 270KIDZ View Post
Once again:
Scholarly community accepts evidence as fact = historical fact
You trying to exclude evidence based on biased "conditions" = petty child
It's not a fact, it's a belief. There is some evidence to support the notion that Jesus the man existed, but certainly not enough for it to be a historical fact, no matter how many times you state it as such.

I personally have no idea if Jesus of Nazareth existed, being that I never really found it important enough to thoroughly research (beyond browsing through internet articles, each of course being biased from the start for each side). If he did exist however, we then begin on all of the Biblical descriptions of him that may or may not have been 100% true, which makes me wonder how much of it was exaggerated, lied about, falsely remembered, etc. Then there comes the magical details of Jesus, such as the virgin birth, walking on water, rising back to life after death, and essentially all of the other "miracles." Even if all of these acts were "witnessed," there are likely still reasonable explanations for what people saw, or said they saw. It was 2,000+ years ago, I don't think duping these people would have been all that difficult for someone only slightly ahead of their time, so to speak.

The FACT is, that there is a character in the Bible known as Jesus. That is the only fact. The rest, no matter what the evidence might mean to you or how credible you personally believe it to be, is a matter of belief. If you would like, you can make the argument that there is a commonly held belief among scholars, but I would still like to see some support for that, and who you are counting as scholars. I'm not saying you are wrong on this point, but I would just like to see where you got this from.

And 270, please remember to be respectful when entering this thread. You are welcome to debate a discuss in here all you want, but check your arrogance at the door. We don't need pissing matches springing up on every page.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:34 AM #31
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You don't get it. There's no real proof of his existence.
If God is the source of all things and the absolute authority, then it cannot exist within this universe, otherwise it would be a part of this universe, if not a product of it altogether. Effectively eradicating it’s dominion over it. So tell me, have you looked beyond all of reality, beyond of all that which we perceive? To say such a thing. You're looking for empirical proof of something that doesn't logically exist in such a confine.


@ 270 or any Christian:
In accordance with the above, can you honestly tell me (or anyone!) that YOU know what it desires, what it’s opinions are? Are you so willing to take the word of OTHER MEN in understanding God's will. The only source we have of knowing this information is the word of other men like ourselves.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:38 AM #32
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If God is the source of all things and the absolute authority, then it cannot exist within this universe, otherwise it would be a part of this universe, if not a product of it altogether. Effectively eradicating it’s dominion over it. So tell me, have you looked beyond all of reality, beyond of all that which we perceive? To say such a thing. You're looking for empirical proof of something that doesn't logically exist in such a confine.


@ 270 or any Christian:
In accordance with the above, can you honestly tell me (or anyone!) that YOU know what it desires, what it’s opinions are? Are you so willing to take the word of OTHER MEN in understanding God's will. The only source we have of knowing this information is the word of other men like ourselves.
Couldn't tell for sure if you were aware from this post, but the topic currently being discussed is the existence of Jesus the man. Not God.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:44 AM #33
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Couldn't tell for sure if you were aware from this post, but the topic currently being discussed is the existence of Jesus the man. Not God.
Don't care. He constantly repeats, there is no proof for your god yadadada. I want to dismantle that argument. I probably shouldn't have quoted that point. Besides 270 basically ended the discussion already (about jesus).

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Old 03-09-2011, 11:55 AM #34
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Don't care. He constantly repeats, there is no proof for your god yadadada. I want to dismantle that argument. I probably shouldn't have quoted that point. Besides 270 basically ended the discussion already (about jesus).
Understood. But in this specific case, your mentioning of "existing outside this universe" does not apply when we are discussing whether or not Jesus existed as a man on Earth in our universe.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:56 AM #35
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Even if jesus was real the rest of the story of his death and ressurection can be argued to the ends of the earth. Just because someone exists doesn't mean the legend and infamy they are known for is true.
Agreed. But to claim that he never lived is a joke.

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There is some evidence to support the notion that Jesus the man existed, but certainly not enough for it to be a historical fact,

vs

being that I never really found it important enough to thoroughly research beyond browsing through internet articles, each of course being biased from the start for each side
No offense, but are just wrong. It's historical fact by every standard. I don't know how else to argue it besides telling you to study it for yourself. The evidence of his existence is overwhelming.

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If God is the source of all things and the absolute authority, then it cannot exist within this universe, otherwise it would be a part of this universe, if not a product of it altogether.
I am not going to answer your question because I disagree with your initial premise.

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Old 03-09-2011, 11:59 AM #36
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Understood. But in this specific case, your mentioning of "existing outside this universe" does not apply when we are discussing whether or not Jesus existed as a man on Earth in our universe.
You didn't read my post. I said I don't mean to discuss Jesus. Just the application of empirical study to something that is beyond the scope of such things. You can't physically study something that exists independent of our universe.
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:06 PM #37
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No offense, but are just wrong. It's historical fact by every standard.
Then prove it to me, right now. I have no problem accepting that he existed as a human being. But from what I HAVE researched, all of the "evidence" is nothing I would consider definitive. And I'm interested in what you define as historical fact, and why you don't just say that it is a fact that Jesus existed.

You are an ignorant 5 year old. This is a historical fact, as demonstrated from all of the evidence of your previous posting patterns and debate tactics. In fact, your name on here says "Kidz" which is a way that children often view as a "cool" way to spell "Kids." This further suggests that you are a child. This is a fact, and you can't argue a fact....I said FACT!

It seems like most of your "facts" and "truths" come down to you telling people to read the same books as you have, and study the same pieces of research as you have. I invite you to post a source that proves this as fact, or use your own words to form an argument that does the same. So far, Treghc has made several points to support his side, and you have just told him he is wrong and that your belief is fact.
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:19 PM #38
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Also, don't we need 100% of the contributing factors to know the validity of a statement? Do you think we have all of these factors to identify that this exact person existed, as described, who went through the events, as described?

Again, you can attempt to make the case that it is a commonly held belief amongst scholars (still waiting for your definition), but not a historical fact (Which you also have yet to define). I am taking fact as a proven and validated statement of objective truth. We know WWII occurred, because we have videos, images, documented actions of participants, and witnesses.

Again, support your "factual" claim, or do no state it as such.
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:23 PM #39
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Then prove it to me, right now. I have no problem accepting that he existed as a human being. But from what I HAVE researched, all of the "evidence" is nothing I would consider definitive. And I'm interested in what you define as historical fact, and why you don't just say that it is a fact that Jesus existed.

You are an ignorant 5 year old. This is a historical fact, as demonstrated from all of the evidence of your previous posting patterns and debate tactics. In fact, your name on here says "Kidz" which is a way that children often view as a "cool" way to spell "Kids." This further suggests that you are a child. This is a fact, and you can't argue a fact....I said FACT!

It seems like most of your "facts" and "truths" come down to you telling people to read the same books as you have, and study the same pieces of research as you have. I invite you to post a source that proves this as fact, or use your own words to form an argument that does the same. So far, Treghc has made several points to support his side, and you have just told him he is wrong and that your belief is fact.
I can find "sources" and "reasons" that the aliens caused 9/11 but that doesn't make it true. Sorry but I'm not going to dig out my text books and type up a novel to convince you of something that is unanimously accepted. Believe as you please. I stopped caring a while ago.

And has been said before. You should send me one of your cool hats. I could put it up on my wall or something.



Please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology

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Also, don't we need 100% of the contributing factors to know the validity of a statement? Do you think we have all of these factors to identify that this exact person existed, as described, who went through the events, as described?
I am taking fact as a proven and validated statement of objective truth. We know WWII occurred, because we have videos, images, documented actions of participants, and witnesses.
So by that standard, the Egyptian empire never existed?

*Don't answer that. I don't care.
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:30 PM #40
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You are telling us to put on our tin foil hats and close our ears, because we ask you for proof of a controversial subject, which you stated as fact?

Go back to CK, and stay out of this thread if you can't be reasonable and respectful. You are, once again, behaving like a child, resorting to your same old childish argumentative tactics. Grow up, kiddie.
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:34 PM #41
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Go back to CK, and stay out of this thread if you can't be reasonable and respectful.
hmmm

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You are, once again, behaving like a child, resorting to your same old childish argumentative tactics. Grow up, kiddie.
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You are an ignorant 5 year old. This is a historical fact, as demonstrated from all of the evidence of your previous posting patterns and debate tactics. In fact, your name on here says "Kidz" which is a way that children often view as a "cool" way to spell "Kids." This further suggests that you are a child. This is a fact, and you can't argue a fact....I said FACT!
ok pal
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:36 PM #42
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Commenting so much on my age just shows how self conscious you are of yours. How old are you really? Middle school?
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