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Old 05-06-2011, 10:14 AM #253
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It hasn't gone unnoticed.
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Old 05-06-2011, 06:48 PM #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Treghc View Post
Am I the only one that has noticed the dramatic increase in civility with 270KIDZ not posting anymore?
At the risk of ending this very thing, as I'm usually a common trigger to his fits, "Yes, I've noticed."
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Old 05-06-2011, 06:50 PM #255
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On an unrelated note, I've created 3 threads today. I need to slow down.

Not really sure if I should be surprised nobody wants to read my thread on the Bible
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Old 05-06-2011, 06:54 PM #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Treghc View Post
Am I the only one that has noticed the dramatic increase in civility with 270KIDZ not posting anymore?
READ MY HIGH SCHOOL TEXTBOOK OR YOU CANT POST IN MY THREAD!
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Old 05-06-2011, 07:01 PM #257
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On an unrelated note, I've created 3 threads today. I need to slow down.

Not really sure if I should be surprised nobody wants to read my thread on the Bible
Just got to it. I worked an overnight shift last night and slept all day today, and apparently R/P was blowing up during my 20 hours of absence. I thought the video gave good insight and the article was one I found pretty interesting. But I can't really say much else about the subject that would be of a good contribution to the discussion. Hopefully that gets dove into, I'd like to see where that topic goes.
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Old 05-06-2011, 07:06 PM #258
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I have a feeling most if not all CKer's will ignore it.
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Old 05-08-2011, 01:47 AM #259
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Meslier

Edit:

Here's a pretty neat little diddy -



http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/25/8419/
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Old 05-08-2011, 10:12 AM #260
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Still missing out on like 100 different beliefs in between
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Old 05-08-2011, 10:56 AM #261
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Originally Posted by Bill Watterson View Post
Still missing out on like 100 different beliefs in between
Still better than "I believe in God" ... "and I don't."
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Old 05-08-2011, 10:59 AM #262
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True. But charts are always limiting.
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Old 05-08-2011, 02:13 PM #263
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i could just be oblivious and not in the mood to think, but what beliefs does that not cover, in a broad sense anyways. i know there are nuances, but that pretty much covers the whole belief/knowledge side of things.
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Old 05-08-2011, 05:41 PM #264
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Old 05-08-2011, 06:46 PM #265
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Originally Posted by T3H_MA$TA View Post
i could just be oblivious and not in the mood to think, but what beliefs does that not cover, in a broad sense anyways. i know there are nuances, but that pretty much covers the whole belief/knowledge side of things.
I'm in the middle of mother's day festivities for now sadly, later I'll elaborate. I'm mainly thinking of the nuances within deism, skeptical christians, existentialists, pantheists, etc.
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Old 05-09-2011, 02:37 PM #266
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So, Christopher Hitchens has now lost his voice

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/fe...-truths-201106
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Old 05-10-2011, 03:36 PM #267
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TED lecture with Daniel Dennett

I stumbled onto this quick little lecture and figured I'd share it. A brief talk on human preferences.

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett...eet_funny.html
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Old 05-11-2011, 09:54 AM #268
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Data about religion in the US and abroad
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Old 05-11-2011, 07:30 PM #269
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I'm curious Umami, do you read a lot of atheist blogs?
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Old 05-11-2011, 07:50 PM #270
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No, none actually. I've found that my views are refined enough that I disagree with most atheists as well. Makes it hard to read atheism blogs because I'm always thinking "well, that's not quite how I see it" or they make factually inaccurate statements that are frustrating etc.

I just have "atheism" checked in stumble, and I post the random crap that pops up that I like here
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Old 05-11-2011, 08:00 PM #271
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Originally Posted by Umami View Post
No, none actually. I've found that my views are refined enough that I disagree with most atheists as well. Makes it hard to read atheism blogs because I'm always thinking "well, that's not quite how I see it" or they make factually inaccurate statements that are frustrating etc.

I just have "atheism" checked in stumble, and I post the random crap that pops up that I like here
I remembered you said blogosphere once and I put it together since you post a lot of that atheist stuff. I came across a few once and my god....
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Old 05-11-2011, 09:48 PM #272
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Hah, it figures a couple hours after I post that I stumble an interesting blog. "God's grace" and all that

Quote:
Ah, the life of a pastor’s kid!

I grew up in Cambridge, Minnesota – a town of 5,000 people and 22 Christian churches. My father was (and still is) pastor of a small church. My mother volunteered to support Christian missionaries around the world.

I went to church, Bible study, and other church functions every week. I prayed often and earnestly. For 12 years I attended a Christian school that taught Bible classes and creation science. I played in worship bands. As a teenager I made trips to China and England to tell the atheists over there about Jesus.

I felt the presence of God. Sometimes I would tingle and sweat with the Holy Spirit. Other times I felt led by Him to give money to a certain cause, or to pay someone a specific compliment, or to walk to the cross at the front of my church and bow before it during a worship service.

Around age 19 I got depressed, probably because I did nothing but work at Wal-Mart, download music, and watch internet porn. But one day I saw a leaf twirling in the wind and it was so beautiful – like the twirling plastic bag in the movie American Beauty. I had an epiphany. I realized that everything in nature was a gift from God to me. Grass, lakes, trees, sunsets – all these were gifts of beauty from my Savior to me. I thought of this every time I saw something beautiful, and God delivered me from my depression (and my porn addiction).

I read Dallas Willard’s The Divine Conspiracy, a manual for how to fall in love with God so that following his ways is not a burden, but a natural and painless product of loving God. My dad and I read lots of this Christian self-help stuff. We shared our latest discoveries with each other and debated theology.

I moved to Minneapolis for college and was attracted to a Christian group led by Mark van Steenwyk. Mark’s small group of well-educated Jesus-followers were postmodern, “missional” Christians: they thought loving and serving others in the way of Jesus was more important than doctrinal truth. That resonated with me, and we lived it out with the poor immigrants of Minneapolis.



The seeds of doubt

By this time I had little interest in church structure or petty doctrinal disputes. I just wanted to be like Jesus. So I decided I should try to find out who Jesus actually was. I began to study the Historical Jesus.

What I learned, even when reading Christian scholars, shocked me. The gospels were written decades after Jesus’ death, by non-eyewitnesses. They are riddled with contradictions, legends, and known lies. Jesus and Paul disagreed on many core issues. And how could I accept the miracle claims about Jesus when I outright rejected other ancient miracle claims as superstitious nonsense?

These discoveries scared me. It was not what I had wanted to learn. But now I had to know the truth. I studied the Historical Jesus, the history of Christianity, the Bible, theology, and the philosophy of religion. Almost everything I read – even the books written by conservative Christians – gave me more reason to doubt, not less.

I started to panic. I felt like my best friend – my source of purpose and happiness and comfort – was dying. And worse, I was killing him. If only I could have faith! If only I could unlearn all these things and just believe. I cried out with the words from Mark 9:24, “Lord, help my unbelief!”

I tried. For every atheist book I read, I read five books by the very best Christian philosophers. The atheists made plain, simple sense, and the Christian philosophers were lost in fog of big words that tried to hide the weakness of their arguments.

I did everything I could to keep my faith. But I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t force myself to believe what I knew wasn’t true. On January 11, 2007, I whispered to myself: “There is no God.”

The next day I emailed my buddy Mark:


I didn’t want to bother you, but I’m lost and despairing and I could really use your help, if you can give it.

I made a historical study of Jesus, which led me to a study of the Bible, historical and philosophical arguments for and against God, atheist arguments, etc. It has destroyed my faith. I think there is almost certainly not a God…

I’m ****ing miserable… I told my parents and they sobbed for 30 minutes. Can you help me?

As always, Mark responded with love and honesty. But he didn’t give me any reasons to believe. He said he believed mostly for the “aesthetics of belief” and his “somewhat mystical experiences of Christ.” He wrote, “In a way, I am a Christian because I want to be one, and the logic flows from there.”

I also wrote a defiant email to an atheist radio show host to whom I’d been listening, Matt Dillahunty:


I was coming from a lifetime high of surrendering… my life to Jesus, releasing myself from all cares and worries, and filling myself and others with love. Then I began an investigation of the historical Jesus… and since then I’ve been absolutely miserable. I do not think I am strong enough to be an atheist. Or brave enough. I have a broken leg, and my life is much better with a crutch… I’m going to seek genuine experience with God, to commune with God, and to reinforce my faith. I am going to avoid solid atheist arguments, because they are too compelling and cause for despair. I do not WANT to live in an empty, cold, ultimately purposeless universe in which I am worthless and inherently alone.

I hope that I find a real, true God in my journey of blind faith. I do not need to convince you of that God, since you seem satisfied as an atheist. But I need to convince myself of that God.

Matt responded to my every sentence with care, understanding, and reason. But I still tried to hang onto my faith. For a while I read nothing but Christian authors. Even the smartest ones just made lots of noise about “the mystery of God.” They used big words so that it sounded like they were saying something precise and convincing.

My dad told me I had been led astray because I was arrogant to think I could get to truth by studying. Humbled and encouraged, I started a new quest to find God. I wrote on my blog:


I’ve been humbled. I was “doing discipleship” in my own strength, because I thought I was smart enough and disciplined enough. [Now] having surrendered my prideful and independent ways to him, I can see how my weakness is God’s strength.

I’ve repented. I was deceived because I did not let the Spirit lead me into truth. Now I ask for God’s guidance in all quests for knowledge and wisdom.

I feel like I’ve been born again, again.

It didn’t last. Every time I reached out for some reason – any reason – to believe, God simply wasn’t there. I tried to believe despite the evidence, but I couldn’t believe a lie. Not anymore.

No matter how much I missed him, I couldn’t bring Jesus back to life.

Later…

I don’t recall how it happened, but eventually I found out that I could be more happy and moral without God than I ever was with him. I “came out” as an atheist to my family, friends, and church. They were surprised, but they still loved me. They were much more concerned when two elders of my church decided they were Catholic. I bonded with them briefly because the three of us were suddenly outcasts.

I had stubbornly resisted my deconversion, but these days I am excited to accept reality, no matter what it is. I remember when I finally realized the problems inherent to my precious Libertarianism. I was not dismayed or resistant; I was thrilled.

This comfort with truth unleashed my curiosity about Christianity and religion in full force. In my studies I uncovered lots of false facts and dishonest arguments from Christians and atheists. Each discovery only deepened my hunger for knowledge, but also my realization that humans know very little, and with little certainty.

Looking back

In many ways I regret my Christian upbringing. So much time and energy wasted on an invisible friend. So many bad lessons about morality, thinking, and sex. So much needless guilt.

But mostly I’m glad this is my story. Now I know what it’s like to be a true believer. I know what it’s like to fall in love with God and serve him with all my heart. I know what’s it like to experience his presence.

I know what it’s like to isolate one part of my life from reason or evidence, and I know what it’s like to think that is a virtue. I know what it’s like to earnestly seek the truth but still be totally deluded.

I know what it’s like to think that what I believe, or what my loving pastor says, or what my ancient book says, is more true than what reason and evidence say. I know what it’s like to think faith is a strength, not a gullible weakness.

I know what it’s like to be confused by the Trinity, the failure of prayers, or Biblical contradictions but to genuinely embrace them as the mystery of God. I know what it’s like to believe God is so far beyond human reason that we can’t understand him, but at the same time to fiercely believe I know the details of how he wants us to behave.

That was my experience for 22 years, and I am grateful for it. Now I can approach believers with true understanding.
http://commonsenseatheism.com/%253Fp%253D12
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Old 05-11-2011, 10:52 PM #273
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I can identify with much of that, to some degree, and I'm sure there are many people with similar experiences. Good find.

Although, I would like to see what a writing like that would look like going the other way. What lead an Atheist to placing faith above reason and empirical evidence, and how that person slowly would begin to change his/her world-views. What things in the person's life put the idea/acceptance of God in their head, what arguments/experiences convinced them, etc.
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