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Old 02-18-2011, 12:20 PM #1
Boom Master
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Area Effect Weaponry-Mortars, Artillery, Flame Throwers.

Responded to a post elsewhere and decided to post a topic about Area Effect Weaponry. You don't see much in play. Why not? Worthy of a discussion of the pros, cons, and technological barriers.

Scattered throughout Tank Talk is HOW to build barrels that shoot stuff such as a mortar. I was putzing around and came up for a configuation for a mortar.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3501223


The following is mostly a history lesson for you to digest. You're not the first person to think of how to do this.

Mortars has not been seen much at scenario games along with Flame Throwers. What the Sport does not have is Artillery with that 250 foot plus range. Mortars and Artillery are both long range, area effect weapons. A variety of reasons for that lack of popularity.

Flame Throwers are heavy to haul around and the players 'on fire' tend to complain a lot about getting gooh all over them and their electronic marker. It is OK get paintball gooh, mud, and grass stains on your clothes and gear but not simulated napalm. Whiners mostly. Just my minority opinion.....

"Area Effect weapons such as mortars and Nerf artillery require a ref to be in the kill zone to inform the affected players of their untimely demise. You can fire a Nerf 75-100 yards and it could plop down right next to a dozen players and they would not notice it. Fields tend to not want to staff that many refs and the operators of such weaponry don't want to scream at a ref 100 yards away to try and get his attention before you fire. Draws incomming fire. Bad enough for the LAW players trying to get a refs attention trying to kill a tank at 25 yards.

Many of You have already thought of the obvious solution to this problem. Mark the players with paintballs or something so you don't need a ref. The honor system of calling yourself out when marked should work, more or less.

It has been tried and has not gained much in popularity. Several reasons for that.

Over a decade ago, they tried shooting Squad Buster Grenades out of mortars and grenade launchers. Grenade + Launcher = Grenade Launcher. Seemed like a good idea at the time.

Great until they took a guys mask off (no injury) and it occured to everyone that it was probably a bad idea to continue to do that. Just too much mass with a terminal velocity too high to be safe. You are lucky to be allowed to use the water balloon launchers we've seen posted in these treads. Keep the balloons small (2" diameter or less) and MAYBE they will let you use them.

Shooting 50 paintballs up in the air have been tried. First, paint is expensive so you spend a lot more money to kill a lot fewer people You just have to want to do it for the fun of it and if you have the money, who cares?

The next technological problem was getting 50 + paintballs up in the air. To get that 250 foot / 100 yard range we are looking for, the paintballs have to get up to 280 fps or so. The G forces involved broke at least half of the paint in the barrel. The pattern was very irregular and range was an issue. All sorts of fillers, padding, sabots, etc. have been tried with varied results.

Remember, before Nerfs, the only anti tank weaponry was paintballs in a barrel. They tried everything under the sun. I was there.

If any worked, they kept it 'classified' and didn't share it. Most of what was tried came from the efforts of Anti Tank players trying to keep their paintballs intact and be able to hit a tank at 30 yard and break 3 balls to kill it.

I've played scenario games for 15 years and have never seen a mortar configuration in play. Just bad luck or they can't make one successfully and play with it long enough for me to run into it at a game.

Now if you COULD get 50 paintballs in the air in a grouping, going 280 fps at the muzzle, you have another problem. The terminal velocity of a paintball at 50 plus yard is so SLOW you won't get a break on a player unless it hits something HARD. Top of a head and shoulders, a mask, a marker. Since they are essentially comming down vertically, your 'targets' are roughly 24" by 18".

Do the math and place a One of those balls every 12 inches and see how big an area your 50 balls will cover. Isn't a very large area. 32 square feet if my guesstimath is good. A ? foot diameter circle.

Still, not too bad if you could drop a pattern of paintballs in a consistent circle with them spaced a foot apart. You could walk it right onto your target just like a REAL Mortar..... They would be forced to vacate the position or die.

The intimidation factor alone would make it effective to move players out of a defensible position and into the open.

So far, no one has been able to overcome all those hurdles and field a mortar with that kind of effect.

It is not all gloom and doom. Don't want to discourage you from trying. Just a history lesson.

History is made every day and you can make it...

Let's put our heads together and solve this problem.

This Sport needs Indirect Fire, Area Effect Anti- Infantry Weaponry against so they can have something NEW to complain about...
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:19 PM #2
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Anybody want to take the lead to actually build some prototypes?

I have potentially SOLVED the technological issues but so far there is no cure for paintballers whining about geting killed by something other than a paintball..

I have TWO solutions applicable to Area Effect Weaponry.

BOTH solve the problems inherent with indirect fire. The players are marked dead and uses the honor system for eliminations.

One of which I am halfway through building when we decided to drop everything and come to Hawaii for a year. Retirement is killing my paintball fun.

I made a prototype for proof of concept that was successful. I figured out how to get 5 paintballs to come out of a single barrel at 250 fps all in a row about two feet apart. It would shoot with the range and accuracy of a paintball marker using paintballs. Ten barrels = 50 balls and potentially a mortar to drop a tight knit pattern of paintballs onto a target at 100 yards.

Ponder the potential there for a minute....

I built a second single barreled prototype to test HOW MANY paintballs can I get out of ONE barrel, all in one piece, one right behind another, going 280 fps. Made to go up to 8 paintballs. 8 balls x 10 barrels = 80 paintballs Or

8 balls x 6 barrels is 48 paintballs. OR in my field prototype is:

5 balls x 4 barrels = 20 paintballs -- the max allowed for an anti tank weapon using paintball sabot rounds. Did you know 4 barrels will fit inside 2" PVC anti tank weapons?



A little peek at the STKT round....




I have a half built Anti Tank round with hopefully a 100 yard kill range. It is called the STKT (See Tank, Kill Tank) As if the tanks don't already have problems with too many RPG plsyers.

IF I can get it to work, the technology will be applicable to mortars, artillery, indirect fire weaponry, etc. If not, I have a breech loading Nerf firing, RPG for sale.....

They might not let me play with it as an anti tank weapon but put a tripod on it and call it a mortar or wheels and call it artillery. It is a breech loading RPG configuration easily adapted to a cannon config.

The OTHER technology I would like someone else to pick up and run with it that is better equipped and more knowledgable on the subject than I am. Otherwise, any and all discussion here would we helpful.

It solves the problem of whether or not a paintball will break with it hits a player AND would create a simulated 'scharapnel' effect with splatter using essentially hand grenade or flame thrower elimination rules. Something the players and fields are already familiar with.

The technology evolved from my R&D in flamethrower development. They have NO RANGE. 20 foot is about all you get with water at any pressure with a 1/8" nozzle and 2 liters of water paint. . Add pressure and you get MORE atomization and LESS range. 100-120 psi is about max. The same pressure they charge water fire extinguishers to. Duh! I spend hours figuring that out when I could have just LOOKED at the red line on pressure guage on that water fire extinguisher I was going to use for the flame thrower.... Double Duh!

The problem was atomization. Wondered if it was thicker, stickier, more viscious, it might go farther. Being CHEAP, it had to be inexpensive and readily available. Then to be allowed to use it, would have to be non toxic, biodegradeable, safe to use, etc. Wandered around the grocery store pondering how well things would shoot under pressure. Yogurt, Ketchup, Sour Creame, Creamy Peanut Butter, Jelly, and so on....

Everything seemed a little TOO biodegradable. Maybe they could LICK it off if it tasted good...... Yoguart was my pick but I could hear the whining about the STINK the yogurt made on the trip home.....

The thought of the potential of an artillery or mortar using this came to mind. Just drop a yogurt snack in the breech and hit it with a piston. "SQUUUUUIIIRRT" Out the nozzle. Extracting the used container would be a messy problem. (pun intended) Yogurt comes in 5 gallon containers though. Pondered artillery delivery systems.

The GIANT Squirt Gun Artillery Piece concept was born..

I wound up nearly tripling the range of my flame thrower using thicker stuff. The final product was 50:50 regular, heavy, drywall mud and water mix. It also comes in 5 gallon buckets, doesn't require refrigeration, and is a whole lot CHEAPER than food. One $15 bucket made 10 gallons! I got 20 YARDS out of a 1/8" nozzle at 200 psi. 20 YARDS! The players thought they got straffed by a squadren of geese flying over with the white droppings all over them... Refs where laughing their heads off explaining to them that was not the case. That was the good news but they were on fire and dead...

That made me PONDER how FAR it might it shoot with a 1/2" nozzle using pure drywall mud with up to 3000 psi behind it. Atomization might not be a bad thing if the globs are 1/2" in diameter when they hit the ground.. 50 yards should be a piece of cake. 100 yards - Maybe...... or more ??????? Inquiring minds want to know........

I fantasize about a 100 yard range, area effect weapon mounted in a tank. Basically, on most fields, there would be no place to hide out of range. Even down in the timber and brush, it would rain down death and mark players out.

Equipped with spotters, radios, rangefinders, GPS cell phones, etc.

Think how that would change the game. The other side would have no choice but to waste resources and valuable mission time to come out and kill that tank.

Haven't built a thing moving towards a prototype. But here it the thinking so far. Start scaled down with an 200-250 psi rated air cylinder with 3/8 ports.

One port to the air supply valve. The business end port to a 3 way ball valve.

Off the 3 way ball valve, you have your nozzle/barrel in one port. The other port is the drywall fill supply. Probably siphon tube in a bucket under enough pressure to push the drywall mud into the cylinder push the piston down, and fill it.

Close the fill and open the nozzle. Aim, Fire. See what happens......

You could drill and tap the end plate of that air cylinder to accomodate up to say 3/4" - 1" nozzle. So I would start with a 3/4" - 1 inch 3 way ball valve so you don't have to buy a second one. If you wind up going past 300 psi you will be buying an expensive 3 way ball valve anyway.

OR

Just for R & D purposes, Just fill it from the muzzle without a ball valve. Start with a big drip and tap and then use reducer fittings to move to the optimum range, diameter nozzle for that 200 psi. The diameter of the cylinder to the diameter of the nozzle will be a factor I do not have the knowledge to calculate. Piston traveling speed and that ratio of diameters determines the muzzle velocity of the mud... How to calculate it? No clue.

Pure tinker time for me. You could make up a bunch of copper barrels of different diamters, some reducer fittings and do some R&D without too much expense. Sounds like a fun weekend with your paintball buddies, some BBQ and a keg/case of beer. Depends on how many buddies you have...

The wives would have to be somewhere ELSE most likely..... But an image of a bunch of bikinis running around with drywall mud all over them does has some appeal.... Especially clean up..... Maybe let's rethink peanut butter and/or jelly.... Just for 'R&D' purposes.

Back to my reality.... I'd change the mix of mud to water and see if that improves the range or not. You MIGHT get lucky and wind up with some combination you can PLAY with on the field even if you don't get 100 yards out of it. A 50 yard squirt gun/flame thrower in a tank would be a factor to respect...

Anybody want to run with this? I have too many projects delayed and under way to start another.....
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Old 02-18-2011, 07:34 PM #3
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Dale,
I have to commend you. If I had this many ideas floating around in my head constantly, I'd be a poster child for Lunesta. I've played around with the ideas from time to time and found there are no cost effective ways to work out indirect fire in a manner that would actually cause people to notice the impact other than a nerf with a whistle trailing behind it. Everything else I'ver thought of is either super expensive to make work, or would injure somebody. Let's face it, indirect fire was meant to hurt people. It's hard to make something that straightforward about causing pain safe. I never really considered the giant squirt gun idea until you mentioned it. The biggest problem I see with that idea is breakover and spray. This is meant for indirect fire, which means you are shooting it over players potentially to hit others. If you shoot a stream, out of a squirt gun, you'll see that what hits the ground is a straight trail leading back to the nozzel. It's worth a shot though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaN96I3GD3U

those water cannons shoot water over 60 feet in the air. Imagine the possibilities.

My plan for artillery and indirect fire is moving to the next size up nerfs with the whistles built in. Not much else I can do about it that's safe. I tried out dipping the nose in ammonia tri-iodide. It had an awesome effect if it wasn't subjected to too much friction in the launch tube. Think of those little snaps people throw at eachother, but bigger. Again, not so safe. I even thought about making sabots with a projectile made of two solo cups taped together. One filled with baby powder and the other with paint. Ran into the mass + velocity = not so safe problem.
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Old 02-18-2011, 11:12 PM #4
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For mortars shooting paintballs is useless. They rarely get enough velocity to break. plus shooting paintballs costs too much when you are firing 50 at a time ect.

Being a mortarman in paintball is about as much fun as you can have. Im telling you it's a BLAST.

We have been using 2 or 3 inch water balloons and it works very well. We fire them at between 60 and 80 degrees so they fall pretty much straight down.They cost a dime or so to make each.(Paint fill is the biggest expense)
The 2 inch ones are pretty small but can go well over 100 yards. The 3 inch ones we get about 70 yards out of them. which is beyond effective paintball range.If you are behind cover its even better.I spent a decent amount of time developing a somewhat resuable and safe sabot for the 3 inch rounds. We can fire the rounds and 9 out of 10 times they will not break in the barrel.
(working on getting that better)

This year i am going to make a "Hummel" top for my 6x6.(a hummel is a German WW2 self propelled artillery). This vehicle should be pretty fun. Im working on getting a little more range out of the mortar rounds without breaking in the barrel


now some will whine "They can take someones mask off" . I serously doubt that. i think a tree branch is far more likley to yank your mask off.
I dont advise you to shoot greanades out of them though,They are too hard and heavy


Flamethrower-

Ive been wantng to make one for paintball. i will do it eventually. Again you'll get some people whining"i dont want to get sprayed with paint at a paintball game"

My asnwer to that is stay home then
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Old 02-18-2011, 11:41 PM #5
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I a flame thrower used. it worked perfectly. The people in the bunker however were not happy to be marked as well as they were. I think the term "Saturated" was thrown around quite a bit. It was hilarious nonetheless.
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Old 02-19-2011, 08:13 AM #6
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Flamethrowers!

My only experience first hand with these type of guns was at the Fulda Gap game back in November. This tank ran by a guy named Blue Max had quite a setup. Actually his whole tank was awesome. During the first few times I saw this tank in action shooting the flamethrower it was rather remarkable with its range and accuracy. I didnt hear anyone complaining whom got shot with it. But during the last hours of the game I got the birds eye view of it when it came at a bunker I was behind. I was AT at the time. There were several other players in the bunker. This tank began to come up the ridge where this bunker was and was blazing away with his markers. I didnt have a clean shot at him at the time. I knew what was coming next and ran away from the bunker and ducked. When he opened up with this flamethrower every player in that bunker got doused or slimmed. Like I said I ducked and it missed me. Then as he drove by the bunker I took him out with my launcher. All I can say is when I saw that mass of paint coming at us it was an all s__t moment for me. Actually at this game there were other remarkable artillery guns, launchers, and markers. BlackangelsSS Pak 40, MK34, and "Q's" M19 Nerf launcher comes to my mind first. Looking forward again to November when I'll see more incredible weaponry.

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Old 02-19-2011, 01:32 PM #7
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Quote:
I think the term "Saturated" was thrown around quite a bit.
I've never seen anyone that looked 'saturated'. Were they whining or did they get hosed....?
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Old 02-20-2011, 12:11 AM #8
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I doubt area effect weapons will ever become accepted in numbers more than a few per game since they are incredibly effective when used correctly.
One must remember that even in WWII, more infantry casualties were caused by artillery than all other units combined, about 55%.
The thought of simply being called out by a ref in the middle of a heated battle just doesn't go well with many.
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Old 02-20-2011, 11:05 AM #9
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I would love to see artillery and flame-throwers on the battlefield. People who whine about getting some paint on them or their gun shouldn't be playing this sport in the first place. Area effect weapons would definitely have to be something that was controlled by the game producer. For example, if you wanted an artillery strike you would have to turn in some of props as payment for it to gain the edge. It would make the Commander have to think, is this artillery strike going to be worth it? If it wasn't controlled by the producer, you'd have Artillery units all over the battlefield just blasting away at the other side. No one would get anywhere. Flame-throwers would be cool too, but the same would have to done for it. It would have to be a prop that you would upgrade for, to help accomplish a high value mission. That being said, I would love to see more artillery on a field designed just for tanks. I would love to see a Battle of the Bulge tank battle going on while there was an infantry battle going on as well. I know a lot of fields don't have the space for this but to see an 8 on 8 tank battle with light artillery going off on each other would be a new twist to the game. It would really make the scenario's fun for the tankers too. They would have to coordinate with each other to take out the enemy tanks on the battlefield. I know it would require a lot of refs but I honestly think the new twists to the game would bring more people to the fields for their events, heavily outweighing the cost of a few extra refs. Just my two cents.
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Old 02-20-2011, 11:12 AM #10
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You are probably right about acceptability but those FEW games will be the country's bigger and better games.

Look at the Big Popular games now. They are MORE inclusive of special weaponry than exclusive. Ten years ago at a cyborg themed game, we talked Viper into letting us use a hand held personal security screamer as an EM Pulse Grenade with a 50 foot kill radius against cyborgs. Talked to him days before the game.

He worked it in. We could use it TWICE a day. We got to play with our toy and added something to the game. Wouldn't / Shouldn't have any real impact on the game. Turned out to NOT be the case. We had a rescue the General mission. A heavily guarded walled base with two entrances. Mission Impossible unless you toss an EM Pulse Grenade over the wall, have the ref announce they are all dead and the General walks back to HQ. Zero casualities. It made a mission....

They know it makes the game more interesting and a special paintball experience the players can't get anywhere else.

Yes, they whine about getting killed and they talk about the %$#@ tanks, flame throwers, artillery, etc. But they come back and the people they talked to come with them....

Local field producers tend to be more protective of their local players. Respond more to the complaints. That is their base of attendees for the business.

But if they want more than 200 players at a game, they have to attract people from a distance... You have to offer something to those players to make them come. Something special.
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Old 02-20-2011, 04:39 PM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Master View Post
Were they whining or did they get hosed....?
yeah, they were pretty upset.
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Old 02-20-2011, 05:31 PM #12
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I too have often wished I could call in a "fire mission" from an arty battery behind the lines. The real problem that you’re going to find with each and every one of these systems boils down to one thing: Thrown Weight. It would take about six seconds for someone to come up with a way to launch a "shell" with 500 rounds of paint a quarter mile which would disperse this nasty surprise at 45-50 ft over the ground. (Timed myself.) But 500 rounds, plus delivery system, plus the velocity of said round for that kind of range = enough to kill someone if the round doesn't work as advertised. 2oz paint balloons are about as effective a weapon as we’re going to get unless we’re talking R/C Helos with markers turreted under them, at least as a direct action weapon. The “nuclear bombs” and “EM Pulse” tricks that require a Ref to make a call are still viable. Just not nearly as fun. For them to be effective and worth the effort, arty needs to be used properly, at range and in enough quantity to make it worth while over a half a dozen slobs shooting electros charging a stronghold. I do agree with the idea that the games that are willing to allow these, using simple rules like splatter from a grenade or something of that nature will allow everyone to enjoy the game while not being worried about a tome of different rules.
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Old 02-21-2011, 02:31 PM #13
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Anybody got way or idea to prototype this?

4 foot of 1/2" copper pipe, fill 12 inches with mud in front of a rubber or wine bottle cork piston. and put a few hundred PSI behind it?
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Old 02-23-2011, 02:25 PM #14
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:20 AM #15
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I wish I had the tools to try this, I'd prototype it. You would definitely need a battery of these to make a difference though. One or two wouldn't be enough. if you could use one compression chamber to charge 5 or 6 tubes at once, your battery would only need to consist of 2 or 3 of these. Mobilize them and you can deploy them anywhere on the battlefield. Would the mud hold up enough through flight to actually make a decent splatter on someone? You might need a full inch of copper pipe. Someone also told me that at ION they use water balloons in their mortar. Why not make a larger version of the mortar. There's got to be a way to get the distance you want out of a sabot w/ a balloon without exceeding the 240fps at no less than a 45 degree angle. Don't get me wrong, I think the mud idea is awesome, but the more ideas we come up with the more options people will have to build and effectively deploy.
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Old 02-24-2011, 08:45 PM #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battlehardened84 View Post
I wish I had the tools to try this, I'd prototype it. You would definitely need a battery of these to make a difference though. One or two wouldn't be enough. if you could use one compression chamber to charge 5 or 6 tubes at once, your battery would only need to consist of 2 or 3 of these. Mobilize them and you can deploy them anywhere on the battlefield. Would the mud hold up enough through flight to actually make a decent splatter on someone? You might need a full inch of copper pipe. Someone also told me that at ION they use water balloons in their mortar. Why not make a larger version of the mortar. There's got to be a way to get the distance you want out of a sabot w/ a balloon without exceeding the 240fps at no less than a 45 degree angle. Don't get me wrong, I think the mud idea is awesome, but the more ideas we come up with the more options people will have to build and effectively deploy.
I am the one who has the mortar at ION. We shoot 3 inch balloons.Which are the size of baseballs. you cant really launch anything heavier than that because they break too much in the mortar and they are too heavy to hit people with.

3 inch works quite well though and makes a damn good mess with a direct hit!
I have developed a pretty decent sabot for the mortar rounds. We also get about 70 yards out of the mortar right now.Which isfarther than they can shoot you with their paintguns,plus you can just set up behind a bunker or something


There are 2 important things you need for a mortar

1 A wide open place to fire it

2 A large concentration of enemy troops. This way you are far more likley to score some hits

Paintball Artillery is the most fun you can have with your mask on no joke
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Old 02-25-2011, 02:40 PM #17
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To prototype it, all you need is one to see if it wll perform satisfactorily. Range, accuracy shot to shot, splatter effect, optimal dia, pressure, optimal mud consistency. Anything dropping mud down over 75 yards away would be promising.

I would prefer accuracy over brute area effect so it does not require a concentration of players to be useful.

Then you can scale it up to increase rate of fire, increase area effect.

Unless somebody is a fliud mechanics engineer, this is all tral and error and guesstimating.
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If you haven't grown up by age 50........

You don't have to......

Last edited by Boom Master : 02-25-2011 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 02-26-2011, 01:27 AM #18
Rome494
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Here's a thought down here in the south (MS,AL) we use use potato guns or 2 -3 inch tubes with paintballoons works just fine but we saw some guy on the internet selling his mortar stuff for 300 dollars calling it a airsoft or paintball mortar we've found that an air cannon or spud gun works just fine. I would like to see a flamethrower though how's that work
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Old 02-26-2011, 12:47 PM #19
Boom Master
Scenario Player
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: St. Louis MO, USA, EARTH
First, you have to decide how much weight you want to haul. Water based anything can get real heavy real quick.

My fire extinguisher guy has 25 of the old stainless steel 2.5 gallon WATER fire extinguishers with a 20 inch hose and nozzle on it. Put shoulder straps and waist straps on it and just filled it up and pressurized it. No modifications required. It weighed a little over 30 pounds and stopped being fun in about an hour. It now resides in a tank.

I downsized to a 3 pound ABC Kiddie fire extinguisher. They are NOT rechargable. You unscrew the nozzle and fill with your simulated napalm. No way to pressurize it except through the nozzle. Tap a thread in the nozzle and hook up an air supply to fill it. The plunger valve of the extinguisher will work like a check valve during pressureization.
__________________
Carefully planned irresponsibility is the KEY to mental health.

If you haven't grown up by age 50........

You don't have to......
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Old 03-03-2011, 09:54 AM #20
Abnmp78
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Motars- Has anyone tried a 4" tube with several (3+) smaller PB ballons. Nice area weapon.
Flamethrower- I built one. Single shot 6-8 oz of paint but got 20' range. I was using a old 20oz CO2 tank at 70-100 PSI. I'm going to try a bigger air tank and diff size/ length tubes to see if I can get more range. I found a simple paint/ water ration of 1:4 (about the same for a grenade) gave me the best range. But will look into the drywall globs
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Old 03-07-2011, 04:17 PM #21
Abnmp78
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Finally got to try out my water ballon slingshot. It's basically a wrist rocket that lobs water ballons. Gets around 60+ yds. Basically a rifle grenade launcher or 60mm mortar. Doesn't require a crew to fire. I've seen the three man ones and they do get more range, but this only require one person.
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