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Old 01-05-2011, 08:51 AM #1
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Thread of the Week: Are 'Super Teams' good for New England?

Cross posted from New England forum, post originally started by TeamGrnGoat.

(http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...4#post69710144)

The trend lately has been for teams to grow to massive sizes with multiple teams playing different levels or formats.

Is this a new phenomenon in the northeast? or has it happened in the past?

Is it a good thing?

We have multiple super teams now
Bloodline/armada 4 lines
Identity 3 lines
Hostile Intent 2 lines
TNN 3 lines
NEAA 2 lines
Reapers 4 +/- lines

I am interested in what people are thinking as far as pros and cons.
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Old 01-05-2011, 08:52 AM #2
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(Continuing Cross-Post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FullMetalJester View Post
i think there are quite a few

pros:

first and foremost being that a solid organization with multiple committed players has far less of a chance of roster issues, much more likely to practice on a regular schedule and allows for the growth of newer/younger/less experienced players without some of the drama of scrimming another team. Can also reduce costs at both tournaments and practice by spreading out the money needed amongst more players.

cons:

makes the NE scene a bit more stratified and makes it harder for up and coming teams to find quality players (as they have probably been scooped up by these larger groups)
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Old 01-05-2011, 08:52 AM #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamGrnGoat View Post
The trend lately has been for teams to grow to massive sizes with multiple teams playing different levels or formats.

Is this a new phenomenon in the northeast? or has it happened in the past?
It is neither new nor a northeast thing. I think the model most teams are following came from Ken Bryson of the Vipers. I could be wrong. Dale Costa’s Team Machine in the late 90’s had a number of squads. I think at one point he had 5? At any rate, not new nor New England’s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamGrnGoat View Post
Is it a good thing?
Doesn’t it depend, at least a little, on who is doing it and how capable they are? I think it’s better for a well organized and well funded team with good leadership and clear goals to undertake something like this, no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FullMetalJester View Post
pros:

first and foremost being that a solid organization with multiple committed players has far less of a chance of roster issues, much more likely to practice on a regular schedule and allows for the growth of newer/younger/less experienced players without some of the drama of scrimming another team. Can also reduce costs at both tournaments and practice by spreading out the money needed amongst more players.
Size does not guarantee a solid organization or player commitment.
Roster issues arise from rosters, so a larger roster could mean more issues.
Practice schedule is determined by the person in charge, not the persons being organized.
Growth is best aided by active instruction and repetition. A larger roster does not guarantee the former and can actually prohibit the later.

My point here: you are assuming that larger size means better organized. That is a potentially false assumption.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FullMetalJester View Post
cons:

makes the NE scene a bit more stratified and makes it harder for up and coming teams to find quality players (as they have probably been scooped up by these larger groups)
Potentially, yes.
Also may make it harder for up and coming teams to find quality practices, as the super-teams may not want to go out of house.
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Old 01-05-2011, 09:23 AM #4
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What makes these "super teams" good is the quality of leadership and experience of the leader,support, and player base. Obviously.
Is it good for new england paintballl, the question is will it enhance the quality of players? I think it will. Heres how the rookie players just starting out will have something to aspire to, something to shoot for. That would force them to get better and to work harder.
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Old 01-05-2011, 09:27 AM #5
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To Jeff:

While the idea of the "super team" may not be new, how often, if at all, has it been so prevalent in one area? Say it were just Identity and then a field of individual teams, that seems more the norm as opposed to the growth in the number of these mega teams.

Beyond that, if structured at different levels, it does promote the idea of younger/newer players facing more experienced/talented players regularly to improve.

The flip side of the same argument is if the teams stay in house, the top talent within does not get to face equal talent nearly as much.
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Old 01-05-2011, 09:46 AM #6
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Kyle,

First point, about the prevalence of 'big teams' - GREAT point. I wonder if that is a NE trend or something more widespread. What may point to it being more widespread is that with larger teams come volume discounts on equipment deals.

Second point - I disagree. How long will your D1 squad be willing to practice your D3 squad? I predict it will last no longer (and potentially much shorter) than the day after they get their heads handed to them by another D1 team wo is not required to spend practice hours against lesser teams. And if the issue is forced, you have roster drama.
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Old 01-05-2011, 09:58 AM #7
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Quote:
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\Second point - I disagree. How long will your D1 squad be willing to practice your D3 squad? I predict it will last no longer (and potentially much shorter) than the day after they get their heads handed to them by another D1 team wo is not required to spend practice hours against lesser teams. And if the issue is forced, you have roster drama.
That was what I was getting at, I just tried to multitask while posting. I guess my thought is it benefits every level within the organization except the top. If you have D1, D2, D3, and D4, everyone but the D1 benefits for same reason you stated. Then they either commit to something different while remaining in the umbrella and D2 becomes the same problem, practicing only against the D2 and D3 and eventually it trickles down.

Sure the bulk deals do make sense, and I can see the appeal however which is a positive I had probably overlooked.
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Old 01-05-2011, 10:09 AM #8
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The way we planned to combat this problem is to have each week planned out. week one have d4 d3 and d2 teams all together running drills together. week 2 d3 d2 scrimmage together. d4 guys can be there but arent the priority. week 3 d2 team plays other d2 or higher team ie hurricanes 187 neaa whoever we can play whether its in house or out. also week 3 we set up a scrimmage for the d4 team against other d4 teams.
this way there is a solid amount of drilling to better personal skills. the lower ranked teams get to play the higher ranked team but also allowing the highest ranked team to play teams out of organization that are better than them to help get the highest ranked team ready for next division
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Old 01-05-2011, 10:25 AM #9
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Paintball organizations ("super teams") are not new. You can look at every single paintball community in the US and abroad and see multiple organizations like this. PBV, FIERCE, CEP, DBS, CDR, VICIOUS, Boom, Jesters, etc., etc.

I think the reason you're likely to see more of them now is due to the paintball community shrinking. The fewer players there are, the harder it is to run a tryout and find the talent you're looking for. Especially when multiple teams/organizations are looking for new players. The talent pool is stretched too thinly. The best solution then is to start developing your own talent.

That is the basis for us expanding the number of Bloodline teams. A) we want to have more players available to us in case we lose any, B) we want to give back to the community by helping to develop players faster/better than the usual progression of a player allows for.

Paintball has a high learning curve, and very little top-down knowledge dissemination. Sure, we're not pros, but we've still got plenty that we can teach younger/newer players. This is why we are involving ourselves with drill nights also. It allows us to hone our teaching ability while helping out anyone who wants to show up improve their skills, regardless of which team they play on.
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Old 01-05-2011, 10:33 AM #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Stein View Post

Size does not guarantee a solid organization or player commitment.
Roster issues arise from rosters, so a larger roster could mean more issues.
Practice schedule is determined by the person in charge, not the persons being organized.
Growth is best aided by active instruction and repetition. A larger roster does not guarantee the former and can actually prohibit the later.

My point here: you are assuming that larger size means better organized. That is a potentially false assumption.
Very true, but in the case of the current NE teams, I think they are pretty organized (based on the fact they have been around for more than one season and the roster churning was pretty low overall). We (NEAA) were lucky to not have any roster/commitment issues coming into the season until Cup (since we could not give everyone equal playing due to Race-to-4 being quick games)
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Old 01-05-2011, 10:37 AM #11
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Gabe, I agree with idea of a feeder team on a small scale. It is tough to find talent and building it is easier and more or less guarantees availability. I guess I view something like a D2 line and a D3 or 4 line to develop and retain talent as different from the real "mega-team" idea.
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Old 01-05-2011, 11:25 AM #12
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Kyle, how do you differentiate them?
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Old 01-05-2011, 11:27 AM #13
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The problem is when a team takes on more than they can handle then crash and burn. When that goes down many people don't come back.

Generally I think it works better when teams simply network. Each being its own organization however comfortable enough with higher teams to ask for help. I thinks the power rankings convo seems to show we all know each other at least at this level. Its just do we know how these D4 kids are doing whos the killers just behind us?
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Old 01-05-2011, 12:06 PM #14
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Quote:
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Kyle, how do you differentiate them?
I guess it comes down to scale and intent and possibly even when its created in relation to top team?

If you have a feeder team whose ultimate purpose is to provide the top tier team and help that team succeed, and hopefully wins for that lower group come too from advanced practice and whatnot. This is similar to a high school sport with Varsity, JV, Freshman levels. With my football team, every action we take is for the Varsity level to win. It's great when all three do, but sacrifices are made at lower levels to help the top team succeed.

On the other hand, the "superteam" in my mind is one that is simply building many levels to pump up the brand name. Yes, it will provide some growth up to top team obviously, but the goal is success on all levels. Well executed, this obviously is a great thing. I think this is where the last bit of when its created comes in.

I'm more prone to support the idea of a top tier team who has worked and moved along its path to success (whatever level that aspiration may be) and then developing a system below it. Maybe its because the experience and structure is already in place and is simply expanded slowly and in a controlled fashion. The flipside of this might be a team that is founded and goes with 3-4 or more lines/teams with the expectation of growing from there.

I'm sure the last bit doesnt make a lot of sense so I apologize but Karl posed a great question that has my mind going.
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Old 01-05-2011, 12:32 PM #15
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Quote:
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I guess it comes down to scale and intent and possibly even when its created in relation to top team?
So, in your opinion, there's a difference in whether the top tier team was created first and then the others spawned from that team, and creating all tiers at the same time? I guess I'm wondering why that matters. It seems that the purpose of the lower tiers matters more than when they were created.
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Old 01-05-2011, 12:36 PM #16
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i would think having a top tier team established first would be better
because then the lower teams have a goal to achieve playing for that team.
if all teams are started at same time i forsee more people complaining saying "well im just as good as him why is he d1 and im d2"
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Old 01-05-2011, 12:42 PM #17
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Quote:
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So, in your opinion, there's a difference in whether the top tier team was created first and then the others spawned from that team, and creating all tiers at the same time? I guess I'm wondering why that matters. It seems that the purpose of the lower tiers matters more than when they were created.
Absolutely. I just meant that in terms of my preference to the ideas I'd go:

-Feeder as I defined, ultimately to keep top line moving up and competing

-"Super team" as I defined, but created top down within an existing, solid structure

-"Super team" created bottom up.

My preference would always be towards purpose. But if I'm making a "super team", I'd want top down. I feel bottom up creates a tougher atmosphere to better the top talent as well as greater room for drama and roster nonsense and all sorts of destructive powers. [EDIT: As Alty is referencing]

Now, I'm sure that bit could probably be untrue if someone with massive experience running a similar organization moved or something weird like that and started anew. But from scratch, I think its the hardest path.
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Old 01-05-2011, 01:14 PM #18
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I think the teams that try to have 3-4 different teams bite off more then they can chew and really only do it to make it cheaper on them. They have all these tryouts and some teams make money for the higher ranked team off them.They pick up some players that have potential for the feeder team and then the lower ranked teams are just filled with kids willing to pay money, do work, and show up every weekend to play paintball and promote the higher ranked teams name.

In the end I think having that many teams only hurts the team. The top tier team has to not only focus on making themselves better but try and help the two teams below them. The feeder team doesnt develop as fast because they are trying to help the d4 team and themselves. I think if you have an A team and a B team it works out much better. Like lets say the hurricanes in 07. They had the pro squad and the semi pro squad. We could grind out games and give eachother advice but could also both go practice other teams as two different teams and still work together to make eachother better. Throw in another team or two and I dont think it would of worked as well.

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Old 01-05-2011, 01:29 PM #19
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Are we trying to make one superteam or a farm system
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Old 01-05-2011, 02:00 PM #20
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im not so sure that having a farm team system works out as well as people may think. i feel there are too many things undefined in a farm system that could cause rifts within the organization.

example:
lets say you have 3 teeams (NEH1, NEH2, NEH3) all playing a devision lower then the next. each team has full roasters at the beginning of the season and are able to keep most players through the year. going into the next season, everyone has played together for 1 season and grown together both as an individual team and as a farm system with the other teams. what happens when mid-season, NEH1 loses their best snake player and need another... do they take the best snake player from NEH2 in turning they would take the best snake player from NEH3? or are these players going to be overly attached to their respective teams?
also would there only be movement within the farm system based upon needs or would players be promoted because of steller performance? if there was this free movement could players be demoted as well?

to me this seams counter productive. competition within a team, while in small doses is good, can lead to lack of team unity, players cheating in practice or drills in order to show off instead of improving their own skills.
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Old 01-05-2011, 02:09 PM #21
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Too many people, and not enough are good. Idk, individual personalities strengthen the charisma of a team, but the skill gap can bring a team down - the morale down. Plus, it's gay.
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