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Old 12-09-2010, 01:30 PM #1
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the future of gaming, and whats keeping us from getting there

This thread (New consoles anytime soon?) brought up some pretty good arguments, albeit handled very immaturely.

What is holding gaming back ( is it even being held back )?

Are consoles to blame due to being underpowered compared to pcs?

Are pcs to blame for the constant need to upgrade to have the best performance? Or to just be able to play the latest and greatest cookie cutter game (thats another issue)

Are yearly franchises like COD and Guitar Hero at fault for constantly throwing essentially the same game at us with no major overhaul to the engine, developers being lazy.

Is it the division of the fanbase between all the platforms, includeing the handheld market.


Personally i think if anything is holding back the industry one major factor is the developers re-hashing and ripping off old ideas and calling them new games, we just get bored with it.
God of War/Dantes Inferno as an example. IMO DI is blatant rip on the base plot line of GOW. I borrowed it and couldnt help but get deja vu thruough the story line.

The masses have proven that it is not always about graphics and story line (pop cap and zynga) Games like bejewled and farmville and all the clones just like them are wildy played and obsessed over by millions of people.

Are games just getting to complicated for everyone to pick up. ( I dont think so, The harder a game the better. IMO games should not have adjustable difficulty settings but rather implement a system that auto adjusts to the user as you play. This is done here and there but not enough.)


I feel there are not enough developers who are trying to push the envelope in how they engage you as a player. Quantic Dreams took a huge gamble on Heavy Rain. Never has a game so "boring" sucked me into the world and the characters as this. Even the control scheme is something completely different,both with the move and ds3. That level of immersion and personal feelings towards the plotlinehas been untouched in any game to date.


please try to be civil and not retort to childish name calling.


Komodo, you brought up some valid points in the other thread but you loose all credability when you cannot argue without swearing at people. You know your stuff, but your point gets lost within the elementary school attitude when people fail to see your side of the argument.
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Old 12-09-2010, 01:52 PM #2
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1. Consoles - underpowered, limited controls = dumbed down games. Just look at the huge regression that the battlefield series has taken since BF2

2. Cookie cutter titles like Madden/COD - absolutely no innovation, just re-skins that are re-sold to idiot console gamers

3. Lack of dedicated servers on consoles
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Old 12-09-2010, 02:34 PM #3
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Originally Posted by phuct View Post
This thread (New consoles anytime soon?) brought up some pretty good arguments, albeit handled very immaturely.

What is holding gaming back ( is it even being held back )?
Pretty much this. Sure, there's been a lot of rehash lately, but there's also been a ton of awesome games. It sucks to see heralded franchises get rehashed like Call of Duty, Guitar Hero, Madden, etc, but there's no evidence suggesting that it's starting a trend within the industry, In fact, guitar hero and rock band, two games that are pretty much setting the bar for rehashing, aren't selling for **** anymore. The free market speaks.
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Old 12-09-2010, 02:53 PM #4
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Originally Posted by phuct View Post
Komodo, you brought up some valid points in the other thread but you loose all credability when you cannot argue without swearing at people. You know your stuff, but your point gets lost within the elementary school attitude when people fail to see your side of the argument.
I just like to troll. You should have figured this out by now.

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1. Consoles - underpowered, limited controls = dumbed down games. Just look at the huge regression that the battlefield series has taken since BF2

2. Cookie cutter titles like Madden/COD - absolutely no innovation, just re-skins that are re-sold to idiot console gamers

3. Lack of dedicated servers on consoles
Pretty much this.

Though, I think power issues and controls are 2 separate topics of interest.

#3 is by far one of the most important in terms of the multiplayer community. There is just incredible amounts of rage built up from online shooters due to the lag created from peer-based connections.

If console makers are going to continue to gear a lot of their main franchises towards online play, they REALLY need to start implementing dedicated server support, otherwise we're going to be stuck with the same bull**** lag issues for years to come, regardless of how well consoles are capable of handling power issues.

*EDIT* Also, while I think this falls under control issues as well, I think immersion is a problem as well. Not so much for the casual gamer, but for the hardcore players there is still that sense that you're looking at a TV and playing a video game on a TV. Maybe 3D and more integrated motion controls will fix that, but up to this point the advancement from one console to the next has always been about making things more "real", or putting you deeper into the game. And while graphics do continue to get better, I feel that people are going to want more if good 3D and control innovations aren't made soon. Another console with the same formula as the ones now isn't going to cut it, since save for advancements in online play and overall graphical prowess, we're still playing the same thing we've been playing since the Dreamcast/PS2/Xbox generation.
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Old 12-09-2010, 03:07 PM #5
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damn trolls


i disagree with your bf statement ltk, the bad company series was designed for consoles. hence the "dumbed" down version time will tell when bf3 comes out though. idiot console gamers?retty sure most people who play cod on pc are also buying int the series every year to. And the controls arent dumbed down at all just a different preference in control style, but on both consoles you can run k/m instead of control pad now ( at least i think you can on xbox, ps3 needs an adaptor but it works very well )
i agree about the dedicated servers but with friends list it is kind of a redundancy. something is coming out soon on console with dedicated servers, i forget the name of the game though. it might be homefront.

komodo, you posted before i was done with this reply, i wasnt even thinking about the console as host issue with lag, good point.

i wouldnt lump rock band in with guitar hero, maybe the band edition ones yes, i feel those need to go. or make them dlc content only. atleast rock band is on a 2 year schedule for release and rb3 is actually making imrovements to the music genre of games with the pro modes.


sports games in general is a tough call. i think they should also be on a 2 year release window. baseball/hockey one year. football/basketball the following. on the off years allow for dlc improvements and roster updates for a minimal fee. this would allow devs to really work on some changes and make the game actually feel updated when you get the new one. I for one have never really bought into the yearly sports games but could see myself buying say madden 11 at full price and in 2012 paying $10 or so for the roster updates and a couple of minor tweaks to gameplay. This would also allow for developers to try new things out and test the for a year without forcing the customers to buy a full retail game.
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Old 12-09-2010, 03:32 PM #6
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i disagree with your bf statement ltk, the bad company series was designed for consoles. hence the "dumbed" down version time will tell when bf3 comes out though. idiot console gamers?retty sure most people who play cod on pc are also buying int the series every year to. And the controls arent dumbed down at all just a different preference in control style, but on both consoles you can run k/m instead of control pad now ( at least i think you can on xbox, ps3 needs an adaptor but it works very well )
If you ever played BF2 on the PC, then played any of the subsequent BF games on the consoles afterwards, you'd change your mind (I'm ignoring 2142 in this simply because that game was plagued with its own bull****).

The battlefield series has declined immensely. Hell, Modern Combat for the PS2 was the most fun I ever had on a console shooter (save for maybe COD4), but even the Bad Company games can't even compete with that. They're being made for market value, not for the core gaming population. Consoles are moneymakers, and when games are designed for consoles they are designed to appease people who are not devout, everyday gamers. They're made to support idiots and children who suck at games in an effort to expand their window of accessibility. And while I fully support anyone playing video games as they please, I don't support developers having to make their games idiot friendly.

Battlefield 2 was polished, fun, and made with the intent of being played by core PC players, which it was. Yes, it had a few problems here and there, but what doesn't. The base game itself took skill, had depth without gimmick, and created a very large fanbase from being good, not accessible.

Console developers are becoming sellouts, and it's ruining the industry.

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i wouldnt lump rock band in with guitar hero, maybe the band edition ones yes, i feel those need to go. or make them dlc content only. atleast rock band is on a 2 year schedule for release and rb3 is actually making imrovements to the music genre of games with the pro modes.
While I do think the new Rock Band is pretty nifty, I still feel that it's a dead horse, and the entire franchise needs to go. Or rather, encourage people to pick up real instruments and implement them into the game, versus fake instruments that only do a half-assed job of replicating the feel of a real instrument. Once again, trading in depth for accessibility.

Yeah, I realize not everyone wants to go out and buy an instrument. But hell, the full rock band bundle, even the squire alone are all equivalent in price to a real starter instrument anyways. Wouldn't you rather actually learn to play your prospective instrument than pretend to be a rockstar on a videogame?

As a musician myself, I encourage any and all to embrace the music culture and learn to play an instrument. But the rockband games are going about it in the wrong way. Yeah, they're getting closer to what it needs to be, but it's still far off from a game that actually hears what you're playing and teaches you to follow along and play accordingly. The squire controller is a bit of a joke to anyone who has ever played a real guitar, as there is a LOT more to playing than simply fretting a note and plucking the string.

It's a dead horse, it needs to take a good long break and simply release more songs via DLC. Making a new game every year is not helping anyone.


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sports games in general is a tough call. i think they should also be on a 2 year release window. baseball/hockey one year. football/basketball the following. on the off years allow for dlc improvements and roster updates for a minimal fee. this would allow devs to really work on some changes and make the game actually feel updated when you get the new one. I for one have never really bought into the yearly sports games but could see myself buying say madden 11 at full price and in 2012 paying $10 or so for the roster updates and a couple of minor tweaks to gameplay. This would also allow for developers to try new things out and test the for a year without forcing the customers to buy a full retail game.
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Pretty much this. Hell, I think 2 years is still too soon.

But here we encounter another problem. Consoles don't handle updates and DLC's the way PC games do. Because you're running a game off a disc, there isn't a lot an update can do to really change the core game. Obviously for sports games there isn't much of a need other than to update rosters, tweak bugs and keep the game running smooth and up to date.

I have a large problem with the amount of money being charged for DLC's compared to the content (or lack thereof) being provided, as well as its effect on the overall game. But once again, most console owners are so used to accepting less for more that they don't know any better to begin with. It's wrong that developers have taken advantage over the population like this and deeply disturbs me as a gamer to see how money hungry people have become.

I realize that video games are big money-makers, but there were days not so long ago that what really mattered was giving gamers great experiences just for the sake of putting an awesome game into players hands, and letting THAT sell the game, not having to tack on so many extra fees and nickel and dime people because they realize that their demographic is mainly teenagers that will beg mommy and daddy to pay for the **** anyways.

The advancement of games will go no further than what is capable of making the highest profit at this point, and that's where I feel innovation has hit its ceiling. It's too risky to put something controversial or entirely different into the hands of gamers at the risk of not making enough money. And this is complete bull****. Video games are just as much a form of art as film, and allowing things to fall to mediocrity for the sake of profit is going to collapse the entire industry, doing nothing to advance it or bring thoroughly enjoyable experiences to the table.
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Old 12-09-2010, 03:37 PM #7
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people who feel that graphics = innovation.

That's what's holding gaming back. Better graphics/physics doesn't mean it's a better, more innovative "next gen" game. But that's what all the people who are going, "WHEN ARE WE GETTING NEWZ CONSOLEZ?" are doing. Driving the graphics market - not gameplay.
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Old 12-09-2010, 03:41 PM #8
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people who feel that graphics = innovation.

That's what's holding gaming back. Better graphics/physics doesn't mean it's a better, more innovative "next gen" game. But that's what all the people who are going, "WHEN ARE WE GETTING NEWZ CONSOLEZ?" are doing. Driving the graphics market - not gameplay.
. . ****ing .

Seriously, maybe its because I'm getting older now but rarely do I play a single player experience any more and have an enjoyable time with it. I honestly feel devs are using the "well at least it looks pretty excuse" to get out of putting in damn good game play.
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Old 12-09-2010, 03:46 PM #9
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i disagree with your bf statement ltk, the bad company series was designed for consoles. hence the "dumbed" down version time will tell when bf3 comes out though.
Even though theres barely any information on it, from what I've heard BF3 will be more like BFBC3 and less of a true sequel to BF2. I hope I'm wrong, but they would need to optimize the **** out of the frostbite engine in order to pull it off, because as it is it already pushes consoles near the limit.
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Old 12-09-2010, 03:49 PM #10
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i couldnt agree more with your instrument theory. i played bass for ten years (havent played in about 7) but i still very much enjoy getting a few buddies over and playing rockband over some beers. just makes for a good time
i did buy the beatles disc on black friday, but it was 14 at kmart. worth it for that price

i did play a little bf2, a good friend of mine is a huge bf fan and whenever i go to his house i would play a few rounds. never got really into it as i just am not in the mood right now to build a pc. i am an addictive person and would always need to have the latest and greatest
he now has 2 pcs setup and i bought bc2 to play when i go over to hang with him.


you nailed it with dev greed and dlc. most of it is not worth the price of admission. but on the other hand some is (rockstar gets it right imo) i think dlc could warrant its own thread.

is it the devs fault or the consumers fault we are where we are with pricing? would activision have overcharged for map packs for mw2 if "nobody" bought the first one at the 15 price point?


THE CORE GAMER: is it people like us, or is it the virtual farmers and mobsters who really drive the industry.sad to say but it is the later who dictates which way the industry goes. COD could become played with looneytunes characters and everyone will still buy it, play it and piss and moan about it year in and year out.
look at the rediculous pile of crap games for the wii, if they didnt sell they woudnt still be made. That system does have some decent games besides the standard mario games, but they are not what is driving that console.





and now we as gamers have a whole nother issue to contend with in these laws that are trying to get passed in various states and countries. but thats another topic for another day.
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Old 12-09-2010, 03:49 PM #11
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Originally Posted by Death_Taco View Post
people who feel that graphics = innovation.

That's what's holding gaming back. Better graphics/physics doesn't mean it's a better, more innovative "next gen" game. But that's what all the people who are going, "WHEN ARE WE GETTING NEWZ CONSOLEZ?" are doing. Driving the graphics market - not gameplay.
Inferior power hurts game play too you know in what can be rendered on screen. Like I said before, look at the battlefield series. They had to scale back a lot of their urban maps in BC2 because the consoles couldn't handle the destruction.
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Old 12-09-2010, 03:50 PM #12
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Old 12-09-2010, 03:51 PM #13
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Even though theres barely any information on it, from what I've heard BF3 will be more like BFBC3 and less of a true sequel to BF2. I hope I'm wrong, but they would need to optimize the **** out of the frostbite engine in order to pull it off, because as it is it already pushes consoles near the limit.

and that would suck. I think dice messed up by adding bf to the bad company name. it should have stood as its own series instead of becoming battlefield lite. I love bc2, i think it absolutely kicks the **** out of any cod game out there. but it really shouldnt be billed as a battlefield game.

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Inferior power hurts game play too you know in what can be rendered on screen. Like I said before, look at the battlefield series. They had to scale back a lot of their urban maps in BC2 because the consoles <xbox> couldn't handle the destruction.
i read in a dice interview before release that they wanted to go bigger but had to scale back so they could release the same game on x box as they were on ps3 and pc. That statement seems to suggest that they feel the ps3 can handle alot more than what they put into it.




Jebus: I am 32 and i love a good single player game. the a.d.d age is killing single player games off though.


but we are kind of getting off topic a bit here
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Old 12-09-2010, 03:55 PM #14
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Also its time for xbox to implement blu-ray. Look at games like ME2 that have to ship with 2 discs.
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Old 12-09-2010, 04:04 PM #15
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time to make pigs fly as well. I would love for Sony and MS to do a deal where MS gets blu ray, in exchange for opening up to cross platform play.
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Old 12-09-2010, 04:09 PM #16
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or better yet just increase HD space and do digital distribution
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Old 12-09-2010, 04:11 PM #17
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Originally Posted by Death_Taco View Post
people who feel that graphics = innovation.

That's what's holding gaming back. Better graphics/physics doesn't mean it's a better, more innovative "next gen" game. But that's what all the people who are going, "WHEN ARE WE GETTING NEWZ CONSOLEZ?" are doing. Driving the graphics market - not gameplay.
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. . ****ing .

Seriously, maybe its because I'm getting older now but rarely do I play a single player experience any more and have an enjoyable time with it. I honestly feel devs are using the "well at least it looks pretty excuse" to get out of putting in damn good game play.
More power isn't just an excuse for people to make games prettier. I don't understand how none of you can properly understand this.

It takes a powerful machine to give a game great scale, to give it smarter enemies, to make things more complex and challenging and more interactive. It's not just about graphical prowess and making a game look pretty. The reason we need more powerful machines is because developers are pushing the current ones to their limits as is. They've hit their ceiling.

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i read in a dice interview before release that they wanted to go bigger but had to scale back so they could release the same game on x box as they were on ps3 and pc. That statement seems to suggest that they feel the ps3 can handle alot more than what they put into it.
This is why when the PS3 was first released I was a huge supporter of it, because its technical ability was far above that of the 360. It's Sony's awful, power and money hungry marketing that led me to choose a 360. And in all honesty, I'm glad I did. As is the rest of the world that bought a 360 over a PS3. But unfortunately, we've ****ed ourselves because muti-platform games are now made with the ability of the 360 as its standard, when PS3's are capable of so much more. Sure, the difference isn't massive, but a more powerful system coupled with the expansive memory of Blu-Ray discs is easily far more ready to handle the needs of developers needing more headroom to work with.

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Jebus: I am 32 and i love a good single player game. the a.d.d age is killing single player games off though.
This I disagree with. Games have always appealed to the same demographic. Just with the advent of new technology they are allowed to expand on the edges more. That's NOT to blame for piss-poor single player games.

The problem is a combination of the multiplayer market ruling the industry, as well as a general lack of creativity and risk assessment. Nobody wants to just throw out any concept anymore because the development costs are not worth it should the game flop. And games that try too hard to put great stories into them and fill the game with innovation wind up becoming either boring or so complex and uncomfortable that nobody wants to play it. It's too little or too much. People are afraid of making truly great games because they're always living in the shadow of giant franchises like Halo, COD, Final Fantasy, and the top sports games. They've essentially bullied everyone else out of the market, and it's ****ing wrong.

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or better yet just increase HD space and do digital distribution
This. ****ing dot to the max.

Or if anything, begin releasing games on SD cards that load it onto the system. Everyone knows that flash-based storage is incredibly easy and cheap to produce, and that its mark-up here in the states is just over-inflated bull****.

The days of the optical disc are numbered.
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Old 12-09-2010, 04:18 PM #18
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i am against digital distribution completely. i want to own it in hard copy.

i respect the opinion komodo, but i do disagree, my statement was more cynical than serios though.


a snippet from an ea interview (one of the biggest offenders of our yearly release points)
The single-player-only model of games could have had its day, according EA Games' label president Frank Gibeau, who believes that "online is where the innovation, and the action, is at."

His comments to Develop come in light of the addition of multiplayer to Dead Space 2, following the original's well-received mix of solo sci-fi and survival horror. "It's not only about multiplayer, it's about being connected," he said, "I firmly believe that the way the products we have are going they, need to be connected online. Multiplayer is one form of that."

"I volunteer you to speak to EA's studio heads; they'll tell you the same thing," Gibeau continued, "They're very comfortable moving the discussion towards how we make connected gameplay – be it co-operative or multiplayer or online services – as opposed to fire-and-forget, packaged goods only, single-player, 25-hours-and you're out. I think that model is finished."
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Old 12-09-2010, 04:21 PM #19
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or better yet just increase HD space and do digital distribution
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Originally Posted by licence_to_kill View Post
Also its time for xbox to implement blu-ray. Look at games like ME2 that have to ship with 2 discs.
You can't just do things like that and leave the rest of your customers behind. The next Xbox will have a blu-ray drive and both consoles will have pretty large HDD's - my guess it at least 320gb+.

I don't really think networks are in the proper place for solely digital distributed games. Hard copies still have a lot of life in them.
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Old 12-09-2010, 04:23 PM #20
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McDonalds doesn't stop world class restaurants from opening. Pop music doesn't stop orchestras from playing. Having only 8 colors doesn't mean you can't paint a beautiful picture.

I think the tools, the right fan base, and the proper environment are here right now. Everyone always wants to have nicer tools to work with, but when does it stop? Hardware is always going to get smaller, faster, cooler, quieter, and look better. ALWAYS. Some of my favorite games ever are incredibly dated and I would much rather play a fun old game than a boring new game.

It sounds cheesy, but now is the future of gaming. People who don't give a **** about any video games at all can go pick up incredibly fun and accessible games that really are solid titles when taken in context. Hardcore PC gamers can go online and download the incredibly deep, individually developed Dwarf Fortress for completely free! Someone can come up with an idea (Minecraft for example) and sell it to hundreds of thousands of people as fast as he can write the code. Bro's can jump online from all over the world and play Halo and COD without *****ing about dedicated servers and anti-aliasing and still get angry enough to smash their controller on the floor. That sounds like someone is doing something right to me.

Gaming is a relatively young industry and it has been evolving insanely fast. It might not look like it is because you can't single out an innovation. Innovation takes time and its something you point at after the fact. We won't know where we are going until we get there. I'm sure 20 years from now, no one is going to look back and say, "wow they sucked, consoles had bad graphics and too many people wanted casual games!"
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Old 12-09-2010, 04:23 PM #21
komodo_117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phuct View Post
i am against digital distribution completely. i want to own it in hard copy.

i respect the opinion komodo, but i do disagree, my statement was more cynical than serios though.


a snippet from an ea interview (one of the biggest offenders of our yearly release points)
The single-player-only model of games could have had its day, according EA Games' label president Frank Gibeau, who believes that "online is where the innovation, and the action, is at."

His comments to Develop come in light of the addition of multiplayer to Dead Space 2, following the original's well-received mix of solo sci-fi and survival horror. "It's not only about multiplayer, it's about being connected," he said, "I firmly believe that the way the products we have are going they, need to be connected online. Multiplayer is one form of that."

"I volunteer you to speak to EA's studio heads; they'll tell you the same thing," Gibeau continued, "They're very comfortable moving the discussion towards how we make connected gameplay – be it co-operative or multiplayer or online services – as opposed to fire-and-forget, packaged goods only, single-player, 25-hours-and you're out. I think that model is finished."
Well that pretty much goes along with what I said. Multiplayer is where it's at.

And they're lying when they say mutliplayer is where the innovation is. I feel as if there are still untapped worlds of experience in the single player realm. But of course developers are going to bull**** their way through that, because multiplayer is what the majority wants, and they're going to gear their games towards that crowd.

Sure there have been some great single player experiences. The last GTA, Mass Effect, Dead Space, Fallout, hell even the Fable games were fun. It's not like we're entirely devoid of great single player games. Everyone is just making the shift to the co-operative and online market. Which is why I earlier stressed the need for them to actually perfect the online play of consoles before completely pushing people into it.

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Originally Posted by ayabrae View Post
The next Xbox will have a blu-ray drive
Fat chance. Sony isn't going to let that happen. Not easily at least.

Quote:
both consoles will have pretty large HDD's - my guess it at least 320gb+.
You and I have different views of "large" then. 500gb+ should be the standard, if not more. Especially with the push towards backing games up on HDD's and consoles becoming all-in-one media sources. Hi Definition movies and music take up a lot of space, and with the price of digital storage falling rapidly every year they'd be window licking retarded to not outfit their consoles with as much storage as possible to cater to the needs of everyone.

Quote:
I don't really think networks are in the proper place for solely digital distributed games. Hard copies still have a lot of life in them.
This is true. I know I like to still have hardcopies. But you can bet your *** that within the next 5 years you're going to see a very large push towards digital distribution and if the consoles released in that time aren't capable of handling the needs of such, they're going to fail.
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Last edited by komodo_117 : 12-09-2010 at 04:28 PM.
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