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Old 11-04-2010, 09:37 AM #43
cww516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TokenAlcoholic View Post
I have yet to see any of your pseudoscience prove beyond a reasonable doubt that .50 cal is unusable as a paintball.
derp, nobody was talking about whether or not you can use it as a paintball. you can use airsoft paintballs as paintballs. will they fly very far? about as far as airsoft BBs usually do. will they break? not unless you smash them with a hammer, if then. you can use .50 paintballs in the same environments as .68 paintballs, the performance just won't be as good, given the constraints we have to live with.
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Old 11-04-2010, 09:59 AM #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TokenAlcoholic View Post
You normally use no real Scotsman fallacy or is this something you only break out for .50 cal discussions?
Nobody has used the no true scotsman fallacy in this thread.
I can only assume you have a different interpretation of the no true scotsman fallacy, compared to the rest of us.


Ill try to put it in simple terms for you.

The manufacturers claimed 50 cal was the next step forward in paintball.

It has been demonstrated, in theory and practice that 68 cal flies further, is more likely to break on target and is less affected by wind in comparison to 50 cal.

Therefore its not the revolution in paintball technology the manufacturers claimed.
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Old 11-04-2010, 01:50 PM #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TokenAlcoholic View Post
I have yet to see any of your pseudoscience prove beyond a reasonable doubt that .50 cal is unusable as a paintball.
And where is all yours that is better than 68 cal?

You go so far to put us down and prove us wrong, yet you have no evidence to do so. We never said it wasn't usable, we said it is proven to be inferior. It can do great in some countries, like germany, because of the joule limit, but you won't see no major reform and change over like that ******* italia wanted.
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Old 11-04-2010, 07:34 PM #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cww516 View Post
derp, nobody was talking about whether or not you can use it as a paintball. you can use airsoft paintballs as paintballs. will they fly very far? about as far as airsoft BBs usually do. will they break? not unless you smash them with a hammer, if then. you can use .50 paintballs in the same environments as .68 paintballs, the performance just won't be as good, given the constraints we have to live with.
and

Quote:
Originally Posted by AirSin2000 View Post
We never said it wasn't usable, we said it is proven to be inferior. It can do great in some countries, like germany, because of the joule limit, but you won't see no major reform and change over like that ******* italia wanted.
Exactly. I (and I will go out on a limb and say most other posters in this thread) don't care if someone wants to use .50 on the same field as .68 so long as they know the short and skinny about .50 paint. The original promotion of .50 by GIMilsim contained some outright lies about its performance vis-a-vis .68 and statements by Italia that he intended to replace .68 with .50. Italia's other principals in GIMilsim, the Gardner brothers, have a storied history of making patently absurd claims that fly in the face of science and common sense (spiral porting makes paintballs spin, the Magic Box, etc.), and they were called out when similar claims were made about the performance qualities of .50. Resistance was not to .50 specifically because it has been around for a long time and IS still used some. Rather, the resistance was to the marketing disingenuity that was used to promote .50. Personally, I don't care if someone wants to use .50 because he/she feels the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. I just don't feel it right that kids (or others) be skinned by Italia and the Gardners because Italia had a non-compete clause that prevented him from dabbling in .68 and the Gardners' SP was going under.

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Old 11-05-2010, 02:32 AM #47
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I think (don't quote me) the real reason for not increasing the velocity on 50 caliber products is that it creates somewhat of a problem for (poorly) trained field employees checking velocities and the size difference in the paintballs from 68 caliber to 50 caliber might incur what I would call impact loading in which a smaller paintball may cause more damage at a faster speed because of the smaller impact area.

There is also the current limitations of the equipment we have and the standards they are designed to. 50 caliber rounds may when broken up produce smaller shell fragments than 68 caliber paintballs. There is a test for the ASTM that determines whether a mask is suitable for paintball by checking to see if there is penetration by shell fragments.
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Old 11-05-2010, 03:10 AM #48
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My two cents:

I don't care about .50 cal, but never tried it!!! so until then, I have to wait and see, meanwhile .68 cal is the majority of the industry's standard for now, but if it would change I would not mind changing...
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Old 11-05-2010, 09:13 PM #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TokenAlcoholic View Post
I have yet to see any of your pseudoscience prove beyond a reasonable doubt that .50 cal is unusable as a paintball.
Pseudo –adjective
1.not actually but having the appearance of; pretended; false or spurious; sham.
2.almost, approaching, or trying to be.

So Math is not actually (but has the appearance of) Science? Holy ****, I need to tell the university staff to reclass that BS to a BA.

Thanks!
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Old 11-05-2010, 11:07 PM #50
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Originally Posted by Ethrealwolf View Post
So Math is not actually (but has the appearance of) Science? Holy ****, I need to tell the university staff to reclass that BS to a BA.

Thanks!
Don't you mean... Bachelor's of Applied Arts and Sciences? You know the half *** one.

After all, we're the ones pulling the con job.
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Old 11-06-2010, 12:35 AM #51
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Originally Posted by JOHNwaynegaCy View Post
It has been demonstrated, in theory and practice that 68 cal is less affected by wind in comparison to 50 cal.
wrong as wrong can be. .68 is more affected because the cross-sections/area/volume is larger than .50

.50 could be estimated (since i won't break out fluid aerodynamics), to be .24-34 times less susceptible to .68 caliber.

which means that most peoples arguments about .50<.68 are now debased. math cannot be applied to the real word without applying every single thing possible. weight and velocity don't = soun d and tried math.


the main fallacy of .50 cal is that the shell is thicker by proportions than the .68 cal high end paint. if the proportion was the same (but in reality the textile strength is greater so .50 could have a thinner shell in proportion to .68) then break-ability would be much better which would cause a huge increase in the wide-spread usage of a different ball format.



but then again, all these lies have been perpetuated by pbn members which means that most people already have the wrong idea of .50 cal, even though they have never used it.
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Old 11-06-2010, 07:02 AM #52
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.68 also has a greater mass, which compensates for its greater surface area - so it's trajectory isn't as effected by the wind as a .50 will be (and I've actually real-world tested this - .50 flies all over the place in windy conditions, more so than my .68 shots).

Also, .50 shells are exactly the same thickness as .68 - it hasn't changed one lick. And again, in real world situations, .50 shots do not break as often or as well as .68.

I'm been there, done that - don't tell me it is something it isn't - because the proof is in the pudding.
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Old 11-06-2010, 01:14 PM #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p3ngu!n View Post
wrong as wrong can be. .68 is more affected because the cross-sections/area/volume is larger than .50

.50 could be estimated (since i won't break out fluid aerodynamics), to be .24-34 times less susceptible to .68 caliber.

which means that most peoples arguments about .50<.68 are now debased. math cannot be applied to the real word without applying every single thing possible. weight and velocity don't = soun d and tried math.
Please do break out the fluid dynamic formulas, but be sure to include mass as a factor. The lesser cross-section surface area of .50 is more than offset by its proportionately lower mass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by p3ngu!n View Post
but then again, all these lies have been perpetuated by pbn members which means that most people already have the wrong idea of .50 cal, even though they have never used it.
Hey, we have been debunking the lies as quickly as we can so people won't believe Italia's marketing hype that .50 flies farther, is more accurate, etc., but there has been a lot of ground to cover.

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Old 11-06-2010, 01:21 PM #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p3ngu!n View Post
wrong as wrong can be. .68 is more affected because the cross-sections/area/volume is larger than .50

.50 could be estimated (since i won't break out fluid aerodynamics), to be .24-34 times less susceptible to .68 caliber.

which means that most peoples arguments about .50<.68 are now debased. math cannot be applied to the real word without applying every single thing possible. weight and velocity don't = soun d and tried math.


the main fallacy of .50 cal is that the shell is thicker by proportions than the .68 cal high end paint. if the proportion was the same (but in reality the textile strength is greater so .50 could have a thinner shell in proportion to .68) then break-ability would be much better which would cause a huge increase in the wide-spread usage of a different ball format.



but then again, all these lies have been perpetuated by pbn members which means that most people already have the wrong idea of .50 cal, even though they have never used it.
You were wrong before and you're wrong again.

the cross section of each ball is of course a circle, and since we know the diameter it's easy to find. .68 cal has a cross sectional area of pi*(.34^2) or .363 square inches. .50 cal has a cross sectional area of pi*(.25^2) or .196 square inches

.68 paint weighs between 3.2 and 3.0 grams, .50 averages 1.21 grams. Similarly, Because they're the same thing in terms of composition, neither is more massive than the other- that is, they're composed of equally dense materials.

This is actually surprisingly simple. Mass AND cross sectional area both affect how resistance is going to change a round's ballistics. since .50 has greater than 50% the Cross sectional area but LESS THAN 50% the mass of .68 (even assuming highest possible 1.331grams for .50 and lowest observed of 3.0grams for .68), it's going to suffer from resistance more than the .68 will.

Similarly, real-world testing (Both 'lab' testing and in-game testing) bear out the results of the pbn member's math.
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Old 11-06-2010, 04:17 PM #55
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Well then... Ok so im jusst gonna point something out.
When most people here are talking about the force of a paintball striking a person, they are using the equation:

F=ma Force=Mass x Acceleration

there is a problem here. The paintball is not self propelled (duh). Any acceleration is negative (resistance). Since paintballs work on balistic principles, the formula to use would be:

KE=(.5)mv^2 Kinetic Energy (Joules)= One half mass times Velocity squared

Now i dont feel like doing the math, but im just tired of people (both supporters of .68 and .50) using crappy physics. Unless you are copy/pasting results from a credible scientific laboratory, your math WILL NOT WORK. why?

Velocity is not constant. You will need to take into account:
-frictional coefficients
-gravitational constant
-rectangular force components (X,Y,Z)
-outside forces (wind, air density, and the angle of fire)

Im not trying to be a smart@**, but unless you are a physicist, you are not going to figure out which is better. So far, .50 cal has been outshined by .68 (not my words). So all this talk of mass and velocity and the coreolis effect (ok so maybe not ) is purely academic (and false, unless you are working in a zero gravity vacume and hitting an object EXACTLY 90 degrees perpendicular to the ball's velocity).

And yes, velocity is a vector quantity, so its not constant, at all... Sorry, that bothers me.

Anywhooo. So, now that i have probably convinced you im a math snob, can we hear from the people who have actually used both .50 and .68 systems? Thats the only thing thats gonna make up my mind.

ps-I personally hate .50 cal. This has less to do with math or physics and alot more to do with me LOVING my current setup
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Old 11-07-2010, 01:13 AM #56
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p3ngu!n, again you are wrong. The mass offsets the cross sectional area of a 68 caliber paintball and as a result, with a cross wind the trajectory of a 68 caliber paintball will vary less than a 50 caliber paintball.
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Old 11-07-2010, 01:25 AM #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TokenAlcoholic View Post
None of you are going to decide it, what you say, what petitions you sign, no argument you make is going to matter. I've been playing for about 9 years now, and have seen people like you come and go. Us older guys have seen it countless other times. People were VERY outspoken against ramping, saying it will never catch on, it's cheating, etc, now look where we are. You can't find a little agglet on the field not sporting PSP mode.
Before that we had speedball, people hated speedball, telling them it was a fad and would die out.
Time and time you have the kids at the time who think they know it all trying to tell companies what they will or won't do. Companies know that within a year most of you will be gone and in will come a whole new set of impressionable young minds and bulging wallets.
Op you're not an old timing unless you remember all the different calibers that have been tried and why we dont have them now; .50, .62, .60, and .70. The first 3 failed because they sucked the last one you dont see any more because it was banned from tournaments because it was better than .68 and an unfair advantage.
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Old 11-07-2010, 01:53 AM #58
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Question posed:
Originally Posted by cyclonus4
The thing with .50cal though is that were restricted to shooting it at 300fps, just like the heavier .68cal. If insurance companies would let fields shoot .50 at 350 fps or whatever, youd see some remarkable differences in its ability to travel distances.

Bryce said [in part]:

We got a dual chrono number for it - which meant we could reverse calculate the ballistic coefficeint. off the top of my head it was 425 fps to match muzzle energy. It'll never break at all ranges the same because it decelerates more quickly. So, even with equal muzzle energy it won't deliver that same equal energy at range.

the formula for joules is .5 mass x V^2

regular paint weighs 3 grams, .50 cal weighs 1.2 grams.

so .5 * .003 * 91^2 = 12.4 j
.5 * .0012 * X^2 = 12.4j .... solve for x and you get 143 m/s or 470 fps
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What's that mean? Easy...
Math quantified the .50's "suck" factor. We knew this over 15 years ago and just because "there's new technology" making the paint [or make-up OF it], doesn't mean it's better.

The .50 will perform at closer distances. That's fine for X-Ball or similarly "tennis court-sized" fields. Anything larger and you are just pissing away your money and for no other reason than to make GIM get a fatter wallet.

Everyone loves to hate SP because of "what they did"......yet are falling for the .50 trap and loving them for it. Dudes...it's the same thing. They don't care if you are 'having a good time' playing the game...they care that their shareholders are happy.
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Old 11-07-2010, 10:57 AM #59
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Let me send out the argument winning point:
It doesn't matter which is better.
-Dye sold tons of throttle tanks, which have one of the worst recharge rates and consistency outputs out of any tank for $100 more than the crossfire. It was the worst tank, and the most high priced and people ate it up.
-Eclipse can sell an Ego for $1000 which is basically a poor 2k5 intimidator knock-off, a hodge podge of quick fixes and extreme milling thrown together year after year.
-Angel charges $1,000 for the A1 fly, a design which hasn't changed much in half a decade.
-How many people have bought the kingman training pistols? $120 for a gun that uses paintballs you must order and do even worse than the 50 cal?
-How about first strike rounds? Requires a special gun, are expensive as hell, and don't work near what they say they should. They still sell a ****-ton.
-How many rotors and pinokios have been sold? Are they the best? Arguably, probably not, do they sell like mad despite being overpriced? yep
-How many people are still using apex and flatline barrels despite the fact it was proved to be worse than a standard barrel years and years ago.


It doesn't have to be the best to sell, people just have to think it looks agg. Even if you don't agree with some of my points, just one example is enough to prove that it doesn't have to be the best or even work very well to sell like mad.

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Old 11-07-2010, 11:55 AM #60
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Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.

50 caliber has been and done. There is nothing new to the table.
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Old 11-07-2010, 12:05 PM #61
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Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.

50 caliber has been and done. There is nothing new to the table.
True, but since the last time it was done paintball companies have gotten very good at convincing people to buy sub-par products for inflated prices.
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Old 11-07-2010, 05:45 PM #62
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True, but since the last time it was done paintball companies have gotten very good at convincing people to buy sub-par products for inflated prices.
Which brings up another Einstein quote: "The important thing is not to stop questioning."

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Old 11-08-2010, 02:29 PM #63
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Which brings up another Einstein quote: "The important thing is not to stop questioning."

Tom
Look the up the asch conformity experiments, you are giving too much credit to your fellow man.

I'm not arguing that 50 cal is the best, I am saying you will have no vote in the matter. Kind the hundreds of people who signed petitions against ramping in paintball.
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